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Old February 14, 2012, 06:46 PM   #1
kraigwy
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Serpa vs Trigger Finger

Ref the other post about the negligent discharge that many fault the Serpa holster got me to try and make videos showing that its the shooter not the holster.

When using the Serpa holster, you trigger finger naturally falls straight down the side of the holster. As you start to pull the firearm from the holster, the finger slides along the release allowing the gun to come free. The finger continues to follow the holster, then the gun as it leaves the holster, naturally falling along the slide or just under the cylinder of a revolver.

This shows the Serpa doesn't "force" your finger in the trigger guard, if the finger does enter the guard, its the shooter not the holster.

The first video shows the Beretta 92FS, the second a J frame revolver.

I don't have a Serpa for the 1911, but if need be, I'll buy one and make another video showing the same thing.

Its not the holster, its the shooter.

Sorry for the poor quality of the video, its my first attempt.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy...tta%2092FS.AVI

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy...20revolver.AVI
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Old February 14, 2012, 07:42 PM   #2
jhenry
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I agree.

It's not like nobody blasted holes in their own limbs prior to the Serpa. They did, and they did it the same old way, by getting on the trigger before getting on the target.
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Old February 14, 2012, 10:34 PM   #3
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If you cant operate the holster, you surely don't need to be operating a handgun! I'm thinking the NDs are from a handgun with a "safe-action" manual of arms.
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Old February 15, 2012, 12:28 AM   #4
wayneinFL
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If you cant operate the holster, you surely don't need to be operating a handgun!
Funny, because I've been using handguns for years without shooting myself in the foot, and I can't operate the holster. Like I said, my hand just doesn't fit the darned thing and I can't push the button on the 1911 holster reliably without poking at it with my fingertip. The Serpa for the Glock works just like it shows in the video. I loved the Glock holster, and that's why I bought the holster for the 1911. I'd like a retention holster for a 1911 that doesn't require a thumb break. Just didn't work for me.

Kraig, I only have one question about the video- What is all that white crap on the ground?
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Old February 15, 2012, 07:09 AM   #5
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I've never had a problem with the Serpa. But there are issues with plastic manufacturing.

Maybe the mold for the 1911 holster is flawed.

kraigwy, would you mind getting one to try it out? I'd be curious to see it.

By the way, thanks for taking the initiative on the videos.
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Old February 15, 2012, 04:20 PM   #6
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I have Serpas for a couple of my Sigs (228/229 & 220) and I just don't see what the fuss is about if one is operating the holster release properly. Without exception, my trigger finger is along the slide when the firearm is drawn.
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Old February 15, 2012, 06:26 PM   #7
old bear
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kraigwy

You're RIGHT, it is the shooter not the holster.

Thanks for taking the time to run the tests and post the results...
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Old February 15, 2012, 07:48 PM   #8
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I didn't know that there was any question that an ND is always, undeniably, the fault of the shooter. Keep your booger hook off the bang switch. Blaming equipment is lame.
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Old February 15, 2012, 09:44 PM   #9
wayneinFL
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I agree that your finger shouldn't be in the trigger guard until you're engaging a target. It should be up on the frame. When I do this with the small frame Glock Serpa, the large frame Glock Serpa, or the Sig P220 Serpa, the gun slips out like a wet bar of soap in the shower. Very slick. Best thing since sliced bread, and I mean that sincerely.

The 1911 Serpa does not work that well for me. I have to consciously push on the release. Moreover, I have to clear the rest of the finger from the holster to do it, and place pressure with my fingertip against the release. When the gun clears the slide, my finger is bent, placing pressure against the frame. On a nice, slick finish, my finger could slip off the frame into the trigger guard. Does that explain it a little bit better?

I wish I had the holster and 1911 here to show you what I'm trying to explain. I'm out of town at the moment.

I'm not "blaming the equipment", which I agree is "lame", but I'm not blaming the shooter (me) either. My hand just doesn't fit the thing.

Does somebody want to try it? It's been sitting in a drawer at my house for 6 months. It might work very well for you. PM me with an address, and I'll send it out in a couple of weeks when I get home.
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Old February 15, 2012, 10:04 PM   #10
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I guess you have time to burn. The large egos in the gun world will never be convinced that they screwed up. It is easier to blame the equipment. I recall all the cops shooting themselves in the legs when Glocks first came out. Still happens a bit I think.

The gun was clearly at fault and not carelessness or lack of training.

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Old February 15, 2012, 10:08 PM   #11
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That's what I have always said. Used one for years on duty and always came out with my finger on the frame of my H&K.
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Old February 15, 2012, 10:27 PM   #12
wayneinFL
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That proves it. I must be imagining the whole damned thing. The 1911 holster works, hands down. Even though none of you can actually say that you have that holster.

It must be that my "ego" gets in the way of the release when I use a 1911, but not with a 8 different Glocks or a Sig P220. Must be that the 1911 that makes me a foot taller.

You know, I've tried to be reasonable and kind about this. I even offered the holster to you guys. For free. But ya'll are calling me out on my ego? Seriously? You've never even met me.

This is ridiculous. I have better things to do with my time. Have a good night.
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Old February 15, 2012, 10:46 PM   #13
kraigwy
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Wayne, I said before, and I'll say it again, I will buy a Serpa for my 1911 and give it a try, but I have to wait until I get to a bigger town, this little berg dosn't have anything that wouls sell any holster.

Don't need one, but I'll buy one, give it a shot, whether it works or not I'll post a video.
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Old February 16, 2012, 01:58 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayneinFL
I'm not "blaming the equipment", which I agree is "lame", but I'm not blaming the shooter (me) either. My hand just doesn't fit the thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wayneinFL
The 1911 Serpa does not work that well for me. I have to consciously push on the release.
Emphasis mine in both quotes.

Then don't use it.

Most of us have a drawer or two full of accessories we thought would be great in the store, but they didn't live up to our expectations once we got home or to the range with them. It happens. It's not anyone's fault, it's not the accessory's fault. It's just one of those kinds of things that doesn't always work out.

The fact that you've recognized that the SERPA 1911 holster doesn't work for you is good. The fact that you won't carry it is great, one less likely ND in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayneinFL
That proves it. I must be imagining the whole damned thing. The 1911 holster works, hands down. Even though none of you can actually say that you have that holster.

It must be that my "ego" gets in the way of the release when I use a 1911, but not with a 8 different Glocks or a Sig P220. Must be that the 1911 that makes me a foot taller.

You know, I've tried to be reasonable and kind about this. I even offered the holster to you guys. For free. But ya'll are calling me out on my ego? Seriously? You've never even met me.

This is ridiculous. I have better things to do with my time. Have a good night.
I can't imagine why you didn't get no less than 1000 requests to try your holster in the 43 minutes between your offer to loan the holster and the childish rant you posted above...

I read and re-read MTT TL's post and I can't find any shred of him specifically mentioning you in it. It appears to me that his post was commenting on the general "blame game" in the gun world on SERPA holsters single-handedly causing ND's, much as the blame game against Glocks when they first came out.

I've owned sevreal SERPA holsters, including the 1911 holster in question. Mine works perfectly for me. That does not mean that it will work perfectly for you. That's why there are options in the world.

As far as you wanting a non-thumb-break holster for your 1911, try the Safariland ALS or SLS series of holsters on for size. IIRC, Blade-Tech and FOBUS have retention holsters similar to the design of the SERPA. You might like them, you might not. Worth a shot.
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Old February 16, 2012, 03:18 AM   #15
wayneinFL
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Quote:
I read and re-read MTT TL's post and I can't find any shred of him specifically mentioning you in it. It appears to me that his post was commenting on the general "blame game" in the gun world on SERPA holsters single-handedly causing ND's, much as the blame game against Glocks when they first came out.
Re-reading it, I see I took it the wrong way, it was not addressed to me. I retract my comments. That was uncalled for.

I've been in a generally grumpy mood today. I apologize.

Last edited by wayneinFL; February 16, 2012 at 03:25 AM.
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Old February 16, 2012, 12:56 PM   #16
The Real Wyatt
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I carry a full-size 1911 in a Serpa holster every day. I practice dawing and firing at least 100 times per week. I've never had a problem. I've never found my trigger finger inside the triger guard unintentionally. Based solely on my own experience I can only conclude it's the shooter, not the equipment. Your mileage may vary.
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Old February 16, 2012, 01:28 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayneinFL
I've been in a generally grumpy mood today. I apologize.
No worries. Normally, I wouldn't have said anything, but there's been an increase in similar posts by junior members and I feel like those of us that have been around TFL for a while should self-police and lead by example. The more we do those two things, the less the mods have to worry about.

And we've all had them kind o' days. Hope it turns around for you.
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Old February 16, 2012, 01:45 PM   #18
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I have the 1911 SERPA holster. When you draw it indexes the finger below the slide but above the trigger guard. Right where the take-down/slidestop pin is
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Old February 16, 2012, 01:56 PM   #19
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Quote:
I read and re-read MTT TL's post and I can't find any shred of him specifically mentioning you in it. It appears to me that his post was commenting on the general "blame game" in the gun world on SERPA holsters single-handedly causing ND's, much as the blame game against Glocks when they first came out.
While I had no particular person in mind that attitude was what I was posting about. For the record I have Serpa's for my compact and full size 1911s, G22 and Beretta 92. I carried the Beretta for three solid years in a combat zones using it on the range more times than I could count and drawing a handful of times when I needed it for other reasons. Carried condition one every day and never shot myself in the foot even one time.

I carry the compact 1911 most of the time when I CC. A few years now. Still have not shot myself with it either. No NDs to date for any of those. Weapon was always ready when I needed it, never had the holster button lock up on me or get jammed with crap. Of course I checked it every day too. Before and after leaving the wire when I lived inside the wire.

So it works for me.

If it does not for you, don't use it. Confidence in your gear is nearly as important as anything else in the shooting world. Preaching that using it will cause you to have an ND is a bad sell however. This is not exactly the first video coming out on this issue.
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Old February 22, 2012, 09:57 PM   #20
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I took a class in arizona using a serpa holster and it end up with enough sand and grit in it that it would not release the gun. Had to wash holster with gun still in it with a hose to finally release the gun. I'll never use one again
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Old February 23, 2012, 12:22 AM   #21
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Quote:
I feel like those of us that have been around TFL for a while should self-police and lead by example.
The forum is what the members make it. The mods can try to keep the peace, but we're hugely outnumbered. Ultimately it is the members who determine whether this will be a place that informs and entertains or one that irritates and misdirects.
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Old February 23, 2012, 08:44 PM   #22
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My dislike for Serpa has nothing to do with ND. It has to do with the gun hanging in the holster. If you like them and want to use them, by all means, do so. But regardless of whether your's is the greatest thing since repeating arms, reads you bedtime stories, and fetches you cold brewskies from the fridge, you won't catch me recommending one to anyone.
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Old February 23, 2012, 09:28 PM   #23
wayneinFL
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Quote:
Quote:
I feel like those of us that have been around TFL for a while should self-police and lead by example.
The forum is what the members make it. The mods can try to keep the peace, but we're hugely outnumbered. Ultimately it is the members who determine whether this will be a place that informs and entertains or one that irritates and misdirects.
I agree with that wholeheartedly.

This used to be a very serious forum. It wasn't uncommon for experts like Masaad Ayoob to comment here. And one of things that led me to taking a hiatus was that things seemed to fall apart here a few years ago. Scenarios posted in T&T just got plain goofy. Behavior of forum members got a little heated sometimes, etc. I wasn't dissatisfied, so much as I just had better things to do.

So, after a little time away I stepped back in, became active, and what do I do? The exact same thing I've been complaining about. I got on here tired, misinterpreted a comment and just went overboard. Again, I apologize. And not just to the people in this thread, but to all the members of thefiringline.com, the people of SWAT magazine, Rich Lucibella, and any other interested parties.

Next time I get bent out of shape, I'll go to bed, sleep three or four hours and look at it again to see if it makes any sense.
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Old February 24, 2012, 01:00 AM   #24
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Quote:
I took a class in arizona using a serpa holster and it end up with enough sand and grit in it that it would not release the gun. Had to wash holster with gun still in it with a hose to finally release the gun. I'll never use one again
wun_8_seven, I know of 3 other people that had the same thing happen.

It doesn't seem to be a common thing, but if the right bit of rock or whatever gets in the mechanism in just the right way, it can stop it from releasing.
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Old February 24, 2012, 01:49 AM   #25
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Ok holster I guess. I use one for a duty holster for a Glock 22 but for CC I like a Don Hume/ JIT Slide.
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