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Old April 18, 2012, 11:43 PM   #1
SWglockmagnum
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transferrable auto and silencers

First and foremost sorry for tbe slew of typos that will proceed, not an idiot, im typing o. My cell phone.

I'll get straight to the question. I realize that a corporation can own silenced weapons, does that go for transferable full auto weapons too? Does an LLC count or must it be a corporation. Fyi I'm in Texas. LLC being a single member LLC not a limited partnership. I do understand that the main benefit is that a company can skirt certain issues with having the head Leo signong off on the right to own. I also assume that transferrable weapons do not require the corp to have an appropriate ffl. Cam anyone provide links toore info about the subject? Thanks in advance
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Old April 19, 2012, 12:00 AM   #2
hogdogs
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We have an NFA section for these FA and silencer type discussions...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

I am requesting your thread be moved there for best affect...

Brent
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Old April 19, 2012, 07:48 AM   #3
Skans
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You can use an LLC, Corp, or a Trust to be the owner of NFA items, including machineguns. This does mean that there will be no CLEO sign-off requirement. Most folks are now using Trusts - cost a little more on the front end to have them done right, but there are no year after year continuing registration or annual report fees and they are private.

However, if your CLEO will sign off (many will, I understand, in Texas), I would check into that first.

You should know that using a Corp, Trust or LLC is not really "skirting the CLEO sign-off". In states where NFA items are legal to own, the CLEO should sign Form 4's, but there is no penalty if they refuse. So, many simply refuse. CLEO's are skirting their responsibility to sign-off on Form 4's. The reason this requirement is there is not for them to act as gate-keepers of who can have an NFA item (The ATF and FBI handle this), it's so that the chief law enforcement officer of each county is aware of who owns silencers, machine guns, etc. in their jurisdiction. When they refuse to sign-off on a Form 4, they are doing the old Sargent Schultz "I know nothing, I see nothing" routine.

Also, NFA laws, specifically the '86 machinegun ban, are some of the most poorly written laws out there. And ATF's "Rules" appear to be written by "special" 3rd graders on crack, i.e. are often over-reaching and very inconsistent to the point of pointlessness and absurdity.
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Old April 19, 2012, 09:54 AM   #4
SWglockmagnum
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awesome... learned a lot already. lol thanks guys.

and...

i guess i'll check out some of the other threads.

if anyone else has pointers please feel free to post, i'm brand new to this concept.

as for the 86 machine gun ban, i was 5 years old at the time, but i do remember it happening. i just don't know the specifics of the laws other than -86 pre ban +86 post ban..

so does it still apply today that you cannot get a post 86 automatic weapon? or are there some that are transferable?

I mean, for example, how difficult is it to legally obtain a modern style full auto AR-15 without a class 3 ffl? something made since, say 2005 rather than a vietnam era M-16 lol. (which would be cool too though)

not saying that's my goal, but i'm curious anyhow.
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Old April 19, 2012, 11:47 AM   #5
Willie Lowman
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SWglockmagnum, If it was made after '86 you can't own it. Well, you could if you were a class III dealer and had a demo request letter from a law enforcement office... But you aren't and you don't so you can't.

There are also no transferable machineguns that were imported post '68. All imports from '68 to '86 are dealer pre-samples. Again, it is a dealer sample and you can't own it. If a semiauto gun was imported and registered and converted to full auto in the U.S. between 68 and 86 it is transferable and you can own it.
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Old April 19, 2012, 03:12 PM   #6
SWglockmagnum
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that makes a little more sense.

i kinda smell a grey area though, who's to say that the conversion was done pre 1986???? and not that someone took a pre-ban gun and converted it yesterday to full auto?
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Old April 19, 2012, 03:56 PM   #7
SWglockmagnum
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OK.. i've been reading all sorts of stuff about this on the forum, and it basically brings me to this so far.

.....

I have THREE.... different LLC's to my name all in good standings, and all in Texas. How do i make use of one of them in order to get some of the fun toys?

i've already spent the money, already pay taxes with my business, everything is established, what do i need to do to get a silencer for example using this LLC ?

more importantly though, i need a gun that is alterable to accept a silencer first, but that's easy enough.. glocks are great for that.
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Old April 19, 2012, 04:21 PM   #8
Skans
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Quote:
I mean, for example, how difficult is it to legally obtain a modern style full auto AR-15 without a class 3 ffl? something made since, say 2005 rather than a vietnam era M-16 lol. (which would be cool too though)
If you have the money, this is easy to do. With AR's, either the Lower receiver is registered; the Drop In Auto Sear is registered, or a Lightning Link is registered. With all three of these, it is possible to configure a modern era M16 using a variety of barreled upper receivers or host guns.

Don't expect to be able to get into an M16 for under $10,000 - which is about what registered lightning links are going for (last I checked). DIAS's and RR's are significantly more money.
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Old April 19, 2012, 05:29 PM   #9
Willie Lowman
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Quote:
who's to say that the conversion was done pre 1986?
The original form 1 or form 2 for the manufacture of a new NFA item in the ATF's data base would say.



They got one o them there paper trails attached to ery one o dem musheengunz.

Quote:
took a pre-ban gun and converted it yesterday to full auto?
You could do that, if you want to spend a decade in the iron bar hotel. If you forge a form/tax stamp, you'll be guilty of tax evasion and forgery too...
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Old April 20, 2012, 07:48 AM   #10
Skans
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The bottom line: You'll be paying a minimum of thousands of dollars up front to legally own a machine gun. On the other hand, if you want to own an illegal machinegun (not registered with BATFE), you will be paying hundreds of thousands of dollars and donating a few years of your life the Federal Prison Beautification Project - free food, roof over your head and a free pass to the 24/7 Man Prom.
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Old April 20, 2012, 10:09 AM   #11
SWglockmagnum
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lol thanks for the info, but i wasn't suggesting that IIII was going to convert one.... not in the least..

i guess what i meant is, if i'm purchasing one, how do I know for sure that it wasn't.

and that was answered with "der be a dayum paeper trale" or something to that effect lol.

cutting the expense of the firearm out of the equation, and cutting the popular topic of PRISON out of the equation as well,

Allow me to ask my question again.

I have LLC's......... i have a clean legal record.

Where do i start???????

I'm more interested in a suppressor at the moment than a machine gun, i was asking about it for information sake.

again... Texas.

some say trusts, but, they need to be "set up correctly" but i don't have any info as to how to "correctly" set it up, or what they meant by it..

other's say Corporation or LLC, but... is it just a matter of putting the name of the LLC on the paperwork when i buy it through my FFL store? or do i need to specifically have an LLC that says something specific about purchase and possession of fire arms and related equipment?

i.e. if i have an LLC that is registered for motorcycle repair in austin tx, can i have that LLC own a silencer and eventually machine guns? or do i need to start an LLC specifically that says "fire arms dealer" or what??

thanks guys
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Old April 20, 2012, 11:22 AM   #12
David Hineline
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If you want the silencer or other NFA to be an assett of the LLC what you have is fine.

Contact/find a local in state NFA dealer you are comfortable working with and then pick the silencers you want and start the paperwork.

If your dealer has the item in stock plan on 6 month wait, if not plan on 9 months to a year.
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Old April 20, 2012, 11:35 AM   #13
SWglockmagnum
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cool. easy enough.

and where does manufacturing a "homemade" silencer fall under this? i assume we're back into FFL territory?
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Old April 20, 2012, 12:08 PM   #14
Willie Lowman
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No. You file a form 1 to manufacture a new NFA item. When it comes back approved you may make your silencer.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf
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Old April 20, 2012, 11:07 PM   #15
medalguy
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You can use a business to own machine guns, but the problem comes in whenever you decide to dissolve the business, sell it, retire, anything that changes the status of the business. The guns stay with the business as an asset, unless you transfer each and every firearm/suppressor/whatever to yourself at a cost of $200 each and about 6 months' wait for the paperqork to complete.

I'm also a Texas resident and I went the trust route. It's private, no state forms to file every year, and I never have to worry about naming a friend or relative as a co-owner or officer of my business.

If you want to go the trust route, which I'd recommend, try over on Texas Gun Talk forums where there are several Texas attorneys who can help you set up your trust. Don't try to do it yourself using some internet fill-in-the-blank form. Check out the attorneys. I used one who charged me for the trust and emailed it to me, and then he won't answer emails from me. Nice guy.
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