The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old February 13, 2012, 02:37 AM   #1
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Much as I am opposed to the concept of mandatory training...

... episodes like this really make me think twice about my position:

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/02/12...identally.html

I don't like the potential abuses inherent in mandatory training requirements, but seriously - check the stupid chamber... and obey the 4 rules.
MLeake is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 03:34 AM   #2
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
I was surprised someone could be so careless, but it only takes a second.

http://www.kptv.com/story/16911326/h...ped-over-fence

I feel for his family, and it was sad to learn of this.
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 03:45 AM   #3
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Zambrana reportedly took out the magazine of the Reuger 9mm weapon but did not know there was a bullet in the chamber.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/02/12...#storylink=cpy

Well, there could be the problem.

If he had sprung for a real Ruger instead of a cheap knock off, tragedy might have been averted.

Uh oh, I'm late for an appointment my Rollex reads 9:00 AM.

Sorry de devil made me do it.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 03:53 AM   #4
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
I don't always think it is a case of no mandatory training, sometimes you can't fix "stupid". But things like this do and will happen, it's sad for the ones it affects when it does.
farmerboy is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 04:34 AM   #5
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,934
Like farmerboy said, training doesn't necessarily cure carelessness or stupidity.

The guy's been through mandatory training. According to the news, he has a carry permit, which requires training.

Furthermore, he's a security officer. He's pictured on facebook in two different security uniforms (with what appears to be his Ruger 9mm), and lists his employers as the county school district and a local pharmaceutical company. Armed security by FL law requires a G license, which requires 28 hours of training- above the 40 hours of D license (unarmed) security training. And yearly qualifications.

Most employers here require law enforcement or military experience for armed security. He has a picture of a Virginia Tech campus police badge posted, too. So he may have had law enforcement training as well.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Moise...00002908288043
wayneinFL is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 08:11 AM   #6
Overhill
Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2007
Location: PA
Posts: 95
Authorities say the daughter of a pastor was accidentally shot in the head at a church in St. Petersburg.

How can they even consider this an accident?

Investigators say Moises Zambrana was showing his gun in a small closet to another church member interested in buying a firearm

Huh?


No charges have been filed.

You have gotta be kidding.
Overhill is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 08:27 AM   #7
12GaugeShuggoth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 534
Quote:
Zambrana reportedly took out the magazine of the Reuger 9mm weapon but did not know there was a bullet in the chamber.........
The gun went off and fired through a wall................Deputies said Zambrana has a permit to carry a concealed weapon.....

No charges have been filed.

I love (re. HATE) this kind of idiocy. The gun went off and fired through a wall?......me thinks not, the GUN didn't DO anything. The MORON holding it who doesn't understand basic gun safety and lacks anything resembling common sense FIRED the gun and caused this tragedy. I constantly hear reports of people who "didn't know there was one in the chamber".......really? How freaking hard is it to check? Why on earth would you pull the trigger on a gun that you weren't sure was unloaded?

Throw the book at him, make an example of what happens when you're too stupid to be trusted. There, rant off.
__________________
---Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.---

---Enlightenment is the ability to take infinite pains---
MOLON LABE
12GaugeShuggoth is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 09:57 AM   #8
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Whenever there is an "accidental" shooting, it is going to garner attention in the press. But when that shooting happens in a church it's going to get extra attention due to the debate over banning guns by location - ie, in churches, on college campuses, within various distances from playgrounds, day care centers, parks, schools, etc...

I can't believe charges have not been filed. There's so many things wrong with this story.

I'm not opposed to carrying in church but I am opposed to using the church to conduct deals on guns you are going to trade, buy or sell. Zambrano doesn't have a home he can conduct business in? They couldn't have met at a range or something?

The article doesn't say who pulled the trigger. I think it brings up an interesting legal question. If Zambrano failed to clear the weapon and handed it to a novice who knows nothing about firearm safety, and the novice pulled the trigger, to what extent are each of them culpable in the shooting? It could be said that yes, Zambrano left a round in the chamber, but he didn't know that the potential buyer was going to pull the trigger, the prospective buyer not knowing any better probably thought it was safe to pull the trigger...

What a mess.

Zambrano's face book page has a lot of pictures of him in uniform (one in a bullet-resistant vest).

I do think this is a case of "you can't fix stupid", but it might lend credance to the argument for continuing safety education.

Last edited by C0untZer0; February 13, 2012 at 10:06 AM.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 10:03 AM   #9
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,294
Tragic, senseless, stupid.

This will be a real test of faith, forgiveness and grace for that congregation.
Brian Pfleuger is online now  
Old February 13, 2012, 10:18 AM   #10
hangglider
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2011
Posts: 212
A tragedy. One mistake and lives are forever changed. I judge not.
hangglider is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 10:21 AM   #11
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,336
As others said, training wont fix stupid.

An example, not long ago the "range officer", the guy in charge of training the towns cops, was supposedly working on one of the department's service pistols. He pulled the empty mag out of the gun and laid it on the table, then for some unknown reason, took the full mag out of his gun and laid it on the table.

After he finished what he was doing, He put the "Wrong Magazine" in the "fixed" gun, and let the slide go forward, and the gun discharged through the wall into the break room (where my stepdaughter was).

With all his training to become a LEO FI, stupid still kicked in. He was batting 100, violated 4 out of 4 of the safety rules.

(and people ask why I go out of state to do my yearly LEOSA qualification).

Mandatory training wont fix this. But it will open up Pandora's box.

I'm not against training, not by a long shot, I'm against government mandatory training.

Who is going to set the standards? will they change every time someone does something stupid? Will it change when politicians change? What will it cost? Will it prevent low income people from being able to exercise their rights? Will it make shooting sports a rich man's sport?

Kind of like gun control, never ending, when a law fails to prevent crime, instead of getting rid of the law, they all more laws, which still don't work.

Same with mandatory training, you set the standards, someone does something stupid, you raise the standards. This goes on until no one can pass the training.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 10:34 AM   #12
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,955
Quote:
Who is going to set the standards? will they change every time someone does something stupid? Will it change when politicians change? What will it cost? Will it prevent low income people from being able to exercise their rights? Will it make shooting sports a rich man's sport?
Those are my concerns as well. People have to be receptive to training in order for training to have an impact.

I see no reason that charges appropriate to the degree of negligence should not be filed. I hate to say this, but they may be waiting to see if the young lady survives before they decide on charges (i.e., manslaughter charges may still be in the offing).
TailGator is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 10:35 PM   #13
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
The Pandora's Box argument is the reason I have opposed, and still oppose, mandatory training.

But this kind of sheer stupidity is just mind-numbing...

Have there been any updates on the girl?
MLeake is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 09:00 AM   #14
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,333
These sorts of NDs at locations other than the gun owner's home or at a firing range are exactly why many non-gun business private property owners won't allow concealed carry. Several more happen in gun shops and at gun shows each year

It does not matter that CCW folks have passed rigoous background checks. The issue isn't their honesty or legal history, but a fear of this very type of event.

As kraigwy noted, training won't fix stupid (though it should fix ignorance) and every year stupid gun owners make themselves known by making headlines with NDs. Fortunately, most do not result in injury or death.

Sadly hangglider, it wasn't just one mistake. To have an ND that results in injury or death requires that at least three of the four gun safety rules are violated. On top of that, the gun should never have been out of the holster (or whatever was being used to carry) it while at church. That the gun was brought there for the purpose of selling meant that it should not have been loaded in the first place as the seller knew that the gun would be handled.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is online now  
Old February 14, 2012, 09:37 AM   #15
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post

Sadly hangglider, it wasn't just one mistake. To have an ND that results in injury or death requires that at least three of the four gun safety rules are violated. On top of that, the gun should never have been out of the holster (or whatever was being used to carry) it while at church. That the gun was brought there for the purpose of selling meant that it should not have been loaded in the first place as the seller knew that the gun would be handled.

Yep, in virtually all cases, accidents like this are a result of "cascading failures". It's NEVER one thing. Airplanes don't crash because one thing went wrong. People don't get shot because one mistake was made.

Here, we have two people who did not just one or two things wrong but EVERYTHING wrong. It started with "playing" with the gun in church and went straight through ignoring every rule of gun safety there's ever been.

Sad and terrible thing. One proper safety step would have broken the chain of events. These things aren't caused by one mistake but they can be stopped by one good choice.
Brian Pfleuger is online now  
Old February 14, 2012, 02:54 PM   #16
FTG-05
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 1999
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 259
Quote:
... episodes like this really make me think twice about my position:
Why?

Lack of training didn't cause the negligent discharge (note: it was not an accident!) and additional training to what he already had (he's a security guard!) wouldn't have prevented it.
FTG-05 is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 03:40 PM   #17
m&p45acp10+1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 3,307
It is tragic that happened. Before you folks go off on throwing around the word stupid, and ranting please rember that we have all made mistakes. I was fortunate enough to survive a ND/AD shooting that quite nearly killed me. A lot of mistakes were made, several that I knew better than to do. The thing is I did live to learn the lesson.

I pray the young lady survives, with a full recovery.
__________________
No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.
m&p45acp10+1 is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 06:16 PM   #18
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
Every time I hear about something like this, I have to wonder if he was a college boy what had the ND. Has anyone ever done a study on ND's and the type of people that have them?
Edward429451 is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 06:31 PM   #19
Colvin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2011
Posts: 127
Quote:
Has anyone ever done a study on ND's and the type of people that have them?
Comprehensive studies conducted by myself have concluded that 5/5 perpetrators of negligent discharges are idiots. These results are indiscriminate of race, age, and gender.
Colvin is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 06:52 PM   #20
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
To quote Ron White: "You can't fix stupid".
The same guy who "looks down the chamber to see if it was loaded" is the same guy who would back up his car without looking and kill his kid, or sort of like my cousin did throw your gun over a fence and get shot dead.

A moment of carelessness with a car, a firearm, a tractor or a piece of industrial machinery is all it takes to kill yourself, kill people with you or kill people around you.

SOME basic firearms training MIGHT fix some of the problem but typically in cases like this the ND is representative of other careless habits.
Making someone take a 4 hour class won't stop a lifetime of doing it wrong.
Patriot86 is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 09:20 PM   #21
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
How can they even consider this an accident?
Because it was.

The fact that the shooter is a midget brained, intellectual prebuescent with no common sense or knowledge about firearms doesn't change the fact that he accidentally shot some one.

An incident be an accident and also involve negligence.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 09:24 PM   #22
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
... episodes like this really make me think twice about my position:
Why? What training program is a substitue for common sense?

We already have too many people in government posistions of power who feel that an isolated incident should justify legislation that punishes the overwhelming majority for whom the legislation is not necessary.

He had a CCW license, and I've yet to be involved in a course that didn't teach the basic safety principles. I'll bet his did, too.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Last edited by Nnobby45; February 15, 2012 at 05:57 PM.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 09:52 PM   #23
Colvin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2011
Posts: 127
As far as age is concerned, Zambrana is 48.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...itical/1215430

(Article will enrage you, I don't recommend reading it. Just posting it as evidence for the guy's age.)
Colvin is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 10:04 PM   #24
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS (new to MS)
Posts: 4,636
Quote:

The guy's been through mandatory training. According to the news, he has a carry permit, which requires training.
Wayne, I don't know what other security officer training this guy had but the minimum required training for a CCW in FL is a joke. Literally, all it takes is firing a bullet once without hitting the instructor or some other innocent bystander and you get a nice pretty piece of paper saying you are firearm proficient.
Doyle is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 10:40 PM   #25
Odd
Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2011
Location: Enjoying snacks by the fo
Posts: 15
If mandatory training really is important, including optional firearms safety classes during high school might be worth a try. That way when the student becomes old enough to purchase a firearm he will already of had training.
__________________
Victim: A hapless individual who waits for third party intervention and/or gambles their life on what little good remains in the heart of their attacker.
Odd is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13992 seconds with 7 queries