The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 11, 2012, 01:49 PM   #26
Venom1956
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2008
Location: WI
Posts: 2,991
Well in the video he states he was using a kimber... that could be a problem right there?
__________________
E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that.
I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph.
Venom1956 is offline  
Old February 11, 2012, 06:54 PM   #27
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,934
Quote:
The pistol/revolver is then presented, or pointed toward the target, and as the target comes in view over the sights and the mind recognizes this is the target then the finger goes to the trigger.

To get the trigger finger into the trigger guard you have to "crook" it, meaning you have to bend the finger and stick it into the trigger guard and on the trigger.
I have several Serpa holsters. I have them for SIG, Glock, and 1911. With the Sig and Glock, they work well for me. I can put my finger straight along the holster, my finger indexes exactly where it is supposed to be, and I can push the button with my finger straight along the frame.

The 1911- I don't know what exactly it is about the shape of the holster. I have to crook my finger and push the button with my fingertip. I think if my fingers were straighter it would work very well. But I have to crook my finger and I decided not to use the holster, because in a hurry I might end up doing just what that guy in the video did.

It's not a problem with the holster. My hand just doesn't fit it.

Quote:
I have never seen a holster that requires you to put your finger in the trigger guard to allow you to remove the pistol/revolver from the holster.
I've seen them, but not in a long time. Scary. Some police departments used to use them in the 70's or 80's. There was a steel button inside the trigger guard. I'll see if I can find a picture. A retired cop from NJ I used to shoot with told me they used to keep an empty cartridge case in the bottom of the holster to keep the gun from locking into the retention device.
wayneinFL is offline  
Old February 11, 2012, 06:58 PM   #28
B.N.Real
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Posts: 4,083
I think every shooter should see this video.

It reminds all of us that being very familiar with your handgun and equipment does'nt guarantee your safety.

This guy shot himself in the leg with a 45acp round and still has a leg.

He should buy a lottery ticket because he's damn lucky to still have a right leg ( as well as still being alive).

I think he deserves thanks for publishing the video and saying it was all his fault this happened.
B.N.Real is offline  
Old February 11, 2012, 07:37 PM   #29
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,423
Quote:
Well in the video he states he was using a kimber... that could be a problem right there?
Naw, it just means he had to go to a good bit of extra trouble to screw up sufficiently to shoot himself.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 12, 2012, 07:00 AM   #30
thump_rrr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2010
Posts: 268
I'm a relative newcomer to pistol shooting.
I wanted to get into IPSC last year so I took the 2 day black badge course which is mandatory in Canada to be allowed to draw from a holster at the range.
At the time I only had a 1911 so I purchased a CR Speed race holster which only covers the trigger and has no retention device of any kind.

The holster is made to play games where speed is of the essence.
I then bought an HK P30-L to compete in production division and I bought a Serpa level II for it. In the 6 months I've had this holster practicing for IPSC I've never stuck my finger inside the trigger guard.

Where I do run into problems is when I switch from the 1911 to the HK or vice versa is that I keep messing up my mag releases since the HK uses the trigger finger to release the mag.
Using multiple guns with different controls is azure way to mess up when speed is of the essence.

Tex did the same thing in that video.
He went from using the 511 thumb drive holster with a Glock to using the Serpa with a 1911.
The 1911 has the safety where the 511 thumb drive holster has the retention release mechanism. That combined with a hasty draw from the Serpa caused the ND.

One good way for shooters to increase their proficiency is to try competing in the shooting sports such as IDPA or IPSC where you are under constant scrutiny for such things as having a finger inside the trigger guard before your sights are on the target.

Let's remember blaming a holster for an ND is the same as blaming a gun for killing someone.
thump_rrr is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 10:46 PM   #31
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,238
It is my understanding with the Serpa if you draw fast and press the latch on the side it is easy to keep pressing under speed as you draw and the finger then gets inside the trigger guard and fires the weapon.

It's now slow drawing but doing it fast, so fast your mind does to tell the finger to stop pressing as you pull the gun out of the holster.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 10:57 PM   #32
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,436
Quote:
It is my understanding with the Serpa if you draw fast and press the latch on the side it is easy to keep pressing under speed as you draw and the finger then gets inside the trigger guard and fires the weapon.
It doesn't work that way, slow or fast. There is a spot where you finger hits the release, then you slide the gun out of the holster, as you do that your finger has to leave the release slides along the holster like any other holster.

If you stick your finger in the trigger guard, its not the holsters fault, is because you aren't paying attention.

I can't see how you can get your finger into the trigger guard unless you crook it. The Serpa doesn't make you do that.

I use them in competition that requires qucik draws, never had that problem.

If I was smart enough to make a video, I'd make one post it, showing that its the shooter, not the holster that puts the finger in the trigger guard.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 11:58 PM   #33
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,934
Quote:
I can't see how you can get your finger into the trigger guard unless you crook it. The Serpa doesn't make you do that.
The Serpa for the 1911 makes me do it. Let me try to explain it a little better.

My index finger isn't real straight. It's bent toward my middle finger enough that the rest of my finger is resting on the holster. So I have to bend my finger, like a hook, and push the button with my fingertip only. So my problem with this holster (and it's MY problem not the holster's) is that my finger is bent, pushing pressure toward frame when the gun comes out. I'm just a slip away from getting the finger into the trigger guard.

Again, not an issue with the Serpas I have for my Glocks or my Sig. Those holsters are a little flatter and the button is a little wider. I index my finger along the slide/frame the way I always do and the holster releases, just like it's supposed to.
wayneinFL is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 01:09 PM   #34
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
Never saw the original thread on this so I thank Golden State'er. I see this original was heavily discussed back in July, however some months the computer isn't used as much as other times.
!st of all Tex is to be commended for his candidacy of publishing his mishap.
I am going to go out on a limb and call this an accident! He was doing this at the proper place and with the intention of demonstrating a "Defensive Retention" technique.
I watched the slow motion part of the video 20 or more times and he did NOT crook his finger to the extent most here have claimed. His finger was in line and straight and only when the pistol released in an unexpected manner did the finger go to the trigger much like a bump fire when it can discharge a double action revolver if the shooter is not gripping properly and is trying to get control again.
Tex's mistake of disengaging the safety because of the brain fart mix-up with the thumb release vs the index caused the pistol to remain locked into the holster and the release looks to me to have been out of control, with the mind concentrating on low retention, backing away from BG all happening at the same time, NO this was an Accident! and can happen to any of us.
Think of it this way, if that pistol would have released normally and the shot would have gone off low and hit the target frame leg 1 inch above ground, would that have been a Negligent Discharge?
This could happen to any one of us.
And it isn't a "DEAD HORSE"
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 01:23 PM   #35
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,776
Saw this before, and concluded that muscles (as in "muscle memory") don't make decisons very well- ingrained reactions that are appropriate with one system (gun/holster/draw method) can put holes where you don't want them when the system changes.

I have noted that when I change from a DA revolver to a SA auto, I go to yanking on the trigger.... and have stopped spending time and ammo $$$ working on the DA revolvers...... limited resources have reqired me to make decisions, and my SA shooting has gotten better.....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is online now  
Old February 14, 2012, 01:41 PM   #36
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,436
Quote:
only when the pistol released in an unexpected manner did the finger go to the trigger
If it's "unexpected" its poor training and a violation of the 4 basic rules.

Quote:
NO this was an Accident!
Accident vs Negligent Discharge??? If you were to separate the two, the only "accident discharge" I've seen was a loaded gun in a fire, where the heat caused a cook off. In the hands of the shooter it's a Negligent Discharge.

Quote:
"Defensive Retention"
I've taught defensive retention and take aways to LE officers. And still do. (I understand take aways training is coming back, don't know why it was stopped).

In my classes its impossible to have a negligent or accidental discharge be cause I don't use real guns, I use the "blue guns", or training weapons which you can get for just about every gun available. You ain't gonna shoot yourself in the butt with a "blue gun".

GBRO, reading your post shows, even though you try to portray it otherwise, the accident or negligent discharge occurred from lack of training and following the 4 basic rules of firearm safety.

I'm gonna try to make a video (after it warms up and I can get my wife outside) that shows the trigger finger placement on the Serpa holster as you draw the pistol/revolver. If I can figure it out, I'll post the video.

I suggest anyone who is concerned or interested go to a gun shop, Most have a display of Serpas with blue guns or something similar on the counter for us to play with. Try it. you'll see the Serpa doesn't force your finger in the trigger guard, you have to do that your self.

I don't have a Serpa for my 1911s, but I do know how the safety works. You don't disengage the safety on a 1911 until the point you're ready to shoot and I dis-engage mine as I'm lining up on the target, about the same instant my finger goes into the trigger guard.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 01:50 PM   #37
IrishBluEyes51
Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2012
Posts: 56
My uncle, a Lt on a local police force at the time, would ride me about gun safety. keep that barrel up, is the safety on, is it loaded... till my eyes would cross. Then he was showing off his quick draw with his peacemaker 45longcolt and shot himself right above his ankle and thru the bottom of his foot. I brought him a gun safety pamphlet in the hosp and he burst out laffing when i came in saying he knew if anyone visited it would be me. famous last words

Practice what you preach and there is no substitute for gun safety
and if you must practice quickdraws practice with a unloaded weapon.
IrishBluEyes51 is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 01:57 PM   #38
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,436
Quote:
if you must practice quickdraws practice with a unloaded weapon
No such thing as an unloaded gun in firearms safety. There is "blue guns".

http://www.blueguns.com/default.asp?
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 02:14 PM   #39
IrishBluEyes51
Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2012
Posts: 56
No such thing as an unloaded gun in firearms safety. There is "blue guns".

yes Sir.....<grins>
IrishBluEyes51 is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 02:38 PM   #40
RamItOne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 24, 2011
Posts: 983
Another reason why I'm for traditional double action (DA/SA) or DAO for carry. Sorry but if the other guy gets off a shot at me because the 8# trigger pull took too long, then it just wasnt my day.

Edit
2:58 - after the shot went off... my training kicked in..
RamItOne is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 02:49 PM   #41
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,436
I agree with Ram. The heavy double action pull of the revolver adds to safety, especially if you pocket carry and are worried about it going off by bumping something,

How ever while shooting the revolver's heavy double action isn't that much of a hindrance.

I time my shots, getting six shots off as fast as I could to see the difference.

Quote:
Model 64 1.53
Gold Cup 1.47
Beretta 92 1.42
You'll notice, with six shots the Revolver (M-64) is only .11 seconds slower, and that's with six rounds.

A younger guy with faster reflexes could probably do better then me.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 06:39 PM   #42
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
Sir, with the up-most respect I will call the cook off more negligent than what is shown in the video. A firearm left unattended with a loaded chamber is something I always address in my Safety Classes.
I was a Firefighter for 21 years and a great majority of rural house fires had loaded firearms in them. We would asses where the barrel is thought to be pointing and keep that area clear of personnel.
After more than 30 years as an EMT I have seen a few accidental's and many negligent and many criminal discharges. I also believe Mr. Tex has every right to call his accident a negligent discharge if he so chooses. I would myself had this happened to me.
Have you reviewed the video with scrutiny? The manipulation of the safety when he was mistakenly trying to release the thumb drive release is not visible but the manipulation of the Surpa release is done with the trigger finger pointing downward with no curl towards the trigger and again because of the out of time release of the pistol, (Tex pulling his trousers up) the reflex was to increase his grip of the pistol.
Now I have never seen this man draw previously and maybe he has a tendency to finger the trigger before he should and if that's the case I will also say this is a Negligent Discharge. After all this is a Human, not a Machine.
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old February 14, 2012, 10:36 PM   #43
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,238
Quote:
t doesn't work that way, slow or fast. There is a spot where you finger hits the release, then you slide the gun out of the holster, as you do that your finger has to leave the release slides along the holster like any other holster.
Under stress you may very well keep have your finger still applying pressure toward the holster as you draw due to no relaxing the finger (again under pressure of the situation) and as the handgun leaves the holster the finger, still pushing, goes inside the trigger guard and hits the trigger.

Yes, it can be overcome by training, but I suspect that was the problem to begin with.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old February 16, 2012, 05:31 PM   #44
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,967
Yeah, all my guns go off when I pull the trigger.......I just wait till it is on target.....first.....
markj is offline  
Old February 16, 2012, 09:24 PM   #45
fivepaknh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2001
Location: Nashua, New Hampshire
Posts: 611
Quote:
No such thing as an unloaded gun in firearms safety. There is "blue guns".
If a "blue gun" means a gun that is safe to perform non-live fire drills, then it's just another term for an unloaded gun.
fivepaknh is offline  
Old February 16, 2012, 10:05 PM   #46
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,436
Quote:
If a "blue gun" means a gun that is safe to perform non-live fire drills, then it's just another term for an unloaded gun.
No a blue gun is just that, a blue gun, or a blue plastic gun that resembles a certain firearm. They're used for training so you don't have to use "unloaded" guns since and gun, whether you think it's unloaded or not, its treated as if it is loaded.

They're used for practice drawing, take aways, and retention.

It's not very smart to preach that all guns are loaded then turn around and use a real gun for such training.

Check out the video in the other post about "serpa's vs trigger fingers" to see what I talk about when I mention "blue guns".
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old February 17, 2012, 02:56 PM   #47
RamItOne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 24, 2011
Posts: 983




or red



Last edited by RamItOne; February 17, 2012 at 03:22 PM.
RamItOne is offline  
Old February 17, 2012, 04:49 PM   #48
Mike1234
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2010
Location: Alamo City
Posts: 356
Blue Guns and holsters used for training should have sensors and wireless connection to a PC that trainees are watching training software on. If they make a mistake the sensors should catch it immediately. Oops... caught my mind wandering again...
Mike1234 is offline  
Old February 17, 2012, 05:29 PM   #49
fivepaknh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2001
Location: Nashua, New Hampshire
Posts: 611
Oh.....those blue guns.....oops......nevermind, carry on.

Though, I don't think it's necessary to purchase a blue gun to practice drawing. Unload your weapon, use common sense, and practice away.
fivepaknh is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13874 seconds with 7 queries