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Old February 10, 2012, 06:52 PM   #1
TheGoldenState
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Quickdraw McSelf-Shooter

Here a guy is practicing his quick draw shooting, and negligently shoots himself in the leg.

It is a reminder to be careful when practicing your quickdraw. And it is also a reminder to be careful with the type of holster you use.

Apparently he was using a "mechanism-holster" where he needs to disengage a thumb and index safety for the gun to be released. I have never heard of a holster like that, but i'm not sure i'd go with one that like.

They say every motorcycle rider goes down at some point.

Video shows the shooting, dialogue from the guy, and post shooting injury pictures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE
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Old February 10, 2012, 07:03 PM   #2
ScottRiqui
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I've used holsters like that, but I wouldn't practice "quick draws" out of them. Here's an example of a Serpa "Level III retention holster" with a thumb release and index finger release:



My last squadron used them, but when we were qualifying at the pistol range and firing sequences were timed, we left the thumb break disengaged and just used the index finger catch to release the pistol.
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Old February 10, 2012, 07:06 PM   #3
TheGoldenState
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Thanks for the info. Unique holster, still not sure I like the idea.



Quote:
My last squadron used them, but when we were qualifying at the pistol range and firing sequences were timed, we left the thumb break disengaged and just used the index finger catch to release the pistol.
Unfortunately that was the one that got him.
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Old February 10, 2012, 07:09 PM   #4
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I am pretty sure there is a post about this guy here somewhere. I know I saw it several months ago. Need to warn people about the language. He is lucky it was not worse that what it was .
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Old February 10, 2012, 07:20 PM   #5
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I saw that video on TV a while back. "The Worlds Dumbest" I think it was.
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Old February 10, 2012, 07:30 PM   #6
Willie Lowman
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Quote:
Here a guy is practicing his quick draw shooting, and negligently shoots himself in the leg.
Old news is old news. Did you just catch this on a rerun of Tosh.0?

Tex posted a link to that video on here himself just after he got out of the hospital from that injury.

But thanks for noticing that Serpa holsters are a bad idea.
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Old February 10, 2012, 07:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Old news is old news. Did you just catch this on a rerun of Tosh.0?
Hey it happens.

I ran across it and shared it.

And no, I haven't yet.
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Old February 10, 2012, 08:06 PM   #8
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I hate that draw and rock back, head cover tactic. The holster in this case seems to be a main issue, but he also wasn't taking his time on the draw, in my opinion. He could have drawn quickly without shooting himself had he gone through the steps better, instead of mashing them up. At least he didn't blow out his knee...
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Old February 10, 2012, 08:12 PM   #9
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My main point was that training with multiple weapons and equipment causes confused muscle memory and decreases your proficiency with any single weapon system.

Previous thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455923

I also didn't like how he just sort of said "Negligent discharges happen".

Well no Tex, they don't "just happen".
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Old February 10, 2012, 08:51 PM   #10
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Well no Tex, they don't "just happen".
Yeah, I think he was both trying to man up and admit that it was an ND and to let us learn from it, but at the same time not actually taking responsibility for the ND when he said that they just happen.

You are right. They don't "just happen" and more than people randomly sticking forks in their eyes. He actively made the gun ND.
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Old February 10, 2012, 11:13 PM   #11
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Having read this thread and the other earlier ones I'm struck by what I believe the victim was saying and the way I believe it was taken by most readers. I'm sure my opinion will add to the growing list of warnings and threat e-mails I've managed to accrue in the short time I've been here.

I've been a glider pilot for almost 30 years, and it is almost a "golden rule" that when accidents happen in aviation it is almost always attributable to pilot error. The pilot error is often not simply a single wrong choice that causes a screw-up--but sometimes a subtle series of poor choices that can lead to a catastrophic outcome. We use pre-flight check-lists for safety and pilots will live by these. But every now and then, a one-in-a-million event might occur that falls outside the parameters of the standard pre-flight checklist (I know this from first hand experience). In a way, the pilot who religiously adheres to his tried-and-true pre-flight list may possibly be at risk for not being able to "foresee" possible negative outcomes for these rare events.

It is with this backdrop of experience that I believe I understand what the victim of self-shooting is saying in the video. I don't believe he's really saying a negligent discharge can happen to anyone--he fesses up to all responsibility in the video--I believe what he's really saying is that unforeseen consequences can arise from procedures or events that fall outside the norm.

You may comfort yourself in blaming him and telling yourself that this kind of thing could never happen to you (I've seen the same self-denial phenomenon among pilots). I've also seen some of the best of the expert pilots get killed and almost killed. Don't limit yourself to thinking it is something that couldn't happen to you.

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Old February 10, 2012, 11:36 PM   #12
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No disagreement here, hangglider? Accidents happen. We're only humans and it CAN happen to any one of us. None of us are above it.
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Old February 10, 2012, 11:40 PM   #13
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I'm talking about a mindset toward procedures--accidents are end-result consequences/outcomes.
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Old February 10, 2012, 11:44 PM   #14
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Sure it could happen to anyone. Anyone who puts their finger on the trigger and pulls it.

At the end of the day thats what happened, he pulled the trigger and his pistol went off. No real surprises or profound lessons there.
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Old February 10, 2012, 11:59 PM   #15
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IMO part of what bugs me about his second video is that he doesn't place blame on anything, he doesn't blame the holster, he doesn't blame his training, he never really gets to the bottom of why it happened, he never gets to the root cause, and never comes up with any information to the viewer on what he is going to do differently. Its like he thinks he's doing a public service by saying "Negligent Discharges happen."

Even if he was wrong or people disagreed with him, if he would have said something like "I don't think it's a good idea for me to train with two somewhat similar holsters that are different in significant enough ways that can lead to my finger slipping into the trigger gaurd instead of disengaging the holster." That might have been controversial - but I'd have more respect for him, at least he's identified something and made a change. If he would have said that he feels he needs to practice a hundred slow draws with snap caps before moving to live ammo, that would have been something, if he would have said, "I'm not going to practice the fast draw anymore", or "I'm never gonna use that brand of holster", whatever - that would have been something.

I really don't recall one concrete thing that he is going to change that will ensure that this doesn't happen to him again.
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Old February 11, 2012, 01:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
I don't believe he's really saying a negligent discharge can happen to anyone--he fesses up to all responsibility in the video--I believe what he's really saying is that unforeseen consequences can arise from procedures or events that fall outside the norm.
I take it that you aren't very familiar with TG and his videos. TG's procedures/events of the video weren't outside the norm for him. It isn't unusual for him to work with multiple types of gear. He screwed up doing what he frequently does.

Quote:
You may comfort yourself in blaming him and telling yourself that this kind of thing could never happen to you (I've seen the same self-denial phenomenon among pilots). I've also seen some of the best of the expert pilots get killed and almost killed. Don't limit yourself to thinking it is something that couldn't happen to you.
Quote:
No disagreement here, hangglider? Accidents happen. We're only humans and it CAN happen to any one of us. None of us are above it.
Nobody here has said that this could not happen to them.
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Old February 11, 2012, 01:31 AM   #17
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I don't care what holster you use, if you follow the four simple firearms safety rules you ain't gonna shoot yourself in the butt.

I have a Serpa from my Beretta and my 642. To use the holster your trigger finger lays alone side the release butto, and as you draw the pistol/revolver your trigger finger slides out and falls on the frame above the trigger guard.

To screw up, you have to cock your finger and push it in the trigger guard.

Its the shooter that screws up, can't blame the equipment.


Now as a side note. when I want to set around the house practicing my quick draw, I have a Beretta and J fame "blue gun", a place training gun.

You can use it to train yourself to not put the finger in the trigger if that is a problem for you.
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Old February 11, 2012, 05:45 AM   #18
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True naught2--I'm not familiar with TG and his videos. towards the end he says "I consider myself a safe and responsible gun owner" and I suppose that consensus here is that's not true.

I'm a relative beginner Kraig--so I'm not familiar with this guy's habits or the merits of the holster. I assume what people mean by "if he followed the rules" they mean keeping the finger outside the guard and off the trigger until sight on target that shooter is prepared to destroy.

If I understand the mechanics of this type of holster correctly (not saying I do), it looks like you can press a secondary trigger guard release with the same finger you shoot with in order to complete the draw. In my inexperienced armchair opinion, this is an inherent accident waiting to happen--regardless of how good or experienced you are.

My take-away from this is if something like this can happen under "controlled practice" I personally would factor in a "risk multiplier" for "real-world elevated-stress draw."
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Old February 11, 2012, 08:38 AM   #19
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I like it when he says " After the accident , my training kicked in and I called my Momma, then the paramedics"
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Old February 11, 2012, 09:13 AM   #20
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Hanglider:

I totally agree that being procedure bound causes accidents at times. I was a fighter pilot for years and all that time all the pilots I knew and the commands I was in stressed situation awareness (both the situation around you and the aircraft situation). Procedure will not solve every problem.

Unfortunately I was transferred to SAC (B-52) coming out of SEA. SAC is (was, anyway, it was decades ago) procedure bound. No situation anlysis allowed. I would ask why we did certain things and the only answer given was that "CEG will bust you if you don't." No reason, no aircraft situational analysis, etc. I am away to two B-52s that were lost because of lack of pilot situation analysis, one of them directly caused by blindly following checklist procedure. That's why fighter pilots dreaded going to SAC. Thinking was not allowed.
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Old February 11, 2012, 09:38 AM   #21
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Quote:
If I understand the mechanics of this type of holster correctly (not saying I do), it looks like you can press a secondary trigger guard release with the same finger you shoot with in order to complete the draw. In my inexperienced armchair opinion, this is an inherent accident waiting to happen--regardless of how good or experienced you are.
No Sir:

I will describe again how the Serpa works. Anytime one draws his pistol/revolver the trigger finger is normally extended, pointing parallel with the barrel. When the pistol/revolver is drawn from the holster, the finger naturally falls along the frame above the trigger guard. It's still straight.

When drawing from the Serpa, the finger slides over a "bump" which contained the release allowing the pistol/revolver to be removed from the holster.

After the finger slides over this release, it then falls flat against the side of the holster, remaining straight. As the pistol/revolver comes out of the holster the finger falls (straight) along the side of the pistol/revolver above the trigger guard along the frame, (just under the cylinder of a revolver).

The pistol/revolver is then presented, or pointed toward the target, and as the target comes in view over the sights and the mind recognizes this is the target then the finger goes to the trigger.

To get the trigger finger into the trigger guard you have to "crook" it, meaning you have to bend the finger and stick it into the trigger guard and on the trigger.

The Serpa is no different then any other holster (that covers the trigger guard). Such holsters will not allow you to put your finger in the trigger guard until the pistol/revolver is removed.

And, again, you finger is going to naturally be straight as you grip the pistol/revolver and remain so until the pistol/revolver clears the holster

I have never seen a holster that requires you to put your finger in the trigger guard to allow you to remove the pistol/revolver from the holster.

If the gun goes off while drawing, its the shooters fault, not the holster.

People blame the equipment simply because they aren't man enough to admit their own mistakes.
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Old February 11, 2012, 09:50 AM   #22
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It has always been so with SAC. It is my opinion that the blind adherence to procedure in that command is directly correlated to the nukes and the need for very strict, no deviation, behavior. The SAC mindset permeates all levels and duties. I found that most folks were happy to escape once they found out they could think and make decisions elsewhere.

As to the Serpa, I use one quite a bit, as do many if not most of my coworkers. The way to avoid mishap is to be aware and to train yourself to lay your finger straight and flat along the holster just as kraigwy states.
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Old February 11, 2012, 12:20 PM   #23
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OK--for my information--not disagreeing with anyone--it looks to me like there is a release of some sort on the face of the holster covering the trigger guard area. I assume this requires pressure of some sort to release, and this is sometimes, maybe all the time, with the same shooting finger.

Speaking strictly for myself, I think the probability is high FOR ME in the heat of a stress draw I might continue whatever pressure/movement it takes to actuate that release thereby putting myself at a greater chance of AD/ND. This may seem like a stupid spaz action to some--but to me it seems like an inherent risk, at least for me. I do not have confidence in my own skills that I would be able to reliably prevent an AD/ND in a high-stress draw given the finger/hand mechanics as I understand them. I readily admit I have zero familiarity with this type of holster.
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Old February 11, 2012, 12:30 PM   #24
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Old February 11, 2012, 12:43 PM   #25
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This video demonstrates that it is a poor (perhaps unsafe unless you train exclusively which this one type of system) design to have a safety release which requires the trigger finger to contract to release the pistol from the holster. This led to the guy in the video to continue (or again) to contract his trigger finger at an inappropriate time, which meant he pressed the trigger at the wrong time, which meant he discharged the pistol at the wrong time.

He was "pushing" himself to see how fast he could go. This reduces the margin of error. His mind was set to expect one set of conditions (erroneously) when a different set actually existed. He states that he forgot which holster he was using. He used the manipulations for the 511 thumb retention system when he was actually using the Serpa holster which had a index finger retention system.

At the least this is a cautionary tail about changing equipment.
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