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Old February 10, 2012, 01:19 PM   #1
Walklightly
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22lr compared to 25acp. Two part question

What bullet is longer?

I own both a 22lr (Rifles and handguns) and one Baby Browning 25, cute little things, aren't they?

I know they have about the same calculated energy, let's not make that a debate. My question is, which has a longer bullet, the 22lr, or the 25acp?

The 22lr shell/bullet is obviously longer as a whole side by side (the 25 is shorter), but it's what I don't see is what's past the rim of the shell inside. Does that make sense?

One thing I heard or read about the 22lr is, they tumble, or yaw if you may. It's quite obvious (like the .223 or .556) they (25cal) are thicker in aspect ratio than the .22.

My point is, if the 22lr bullet is longer than the 25acp bullet, it might do more damage in soft tissue, and I'm not talking about just dog's. LOL

TBS, if you got this far, I know the 25acp is a center fire, and as a generalization is inherently more reliable.

Sorry to rant, I just want to know.

Also, speaking a yawing, now that your yawning, I shot (at 726.6 fps LOL) a GDHP from my Baby Browning into a pool a few years ago at about a 45 degree angle. Sorry no pictures, I lost that little thingy

Now this is my own data, after recovering the bullet, it showed expansion, but not a mushroom like you would expect, but it did expand to the .25cal width, almost like a .25 wadcutter. But here's the clincher, one of the peddles opened up beyond the .25 and really stuck out.

I see this as good, it just might tumble and still get good penetration. What do you think Bill?

I'm not sure this was planed by design, but a good concept for a small caliber short range popper.

Food for thought, time for lunch.

Last edited by Walklightly; February 11, 2012 at 09:37 PM.
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Old February 10, 2012, 02:41 PM   #2
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Probably depends on the ammo.

For instance, Aguila makes a 60 grain sub-sonic load that uses a .22 short case to compenssate for the loooong bullet, which is considered a LR load (same length as a LR).

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Old February 10, 2012, 02:49 PM   #3
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Many people on the 'Net and on the stools at your LGS seem to believe that .22LR bullets tumble wildly in tissue and bounce around like a pinball when they hit bone, but this isn't necessarily the case. Yes, they will yaw and bounce, but so do other commonplace pistol rounds when conditions are right. It's not some magic .22LR-only thing.

I prefer to think that the performance difference between .22LR and .25ACP amounts to splitting hairs.
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Old February 10, 2012, 07:16 PM   #4
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Of the two, I would choose the .25 for carry.
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Old February 10, 2012, 10:57 PM   #5
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I believe your typical HV 22LR is about equal to a FMJ 25 ACP in terms of performance for protection. The rimfire is less reliable both in feeding in a semi-auto pistol and ignition. That was pretty much the reason for the 25ACP.
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Old February 11, 2012, 09:29 PM   #6
Walklightly
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Not looking for an SD round, I CCW a .38spl or .357 mostly

Quote:
I prefer to think that the performance difference between .22LR and .25ACP amounts to splitting hairs.
I'm on-line with that, I'm not trying to compare something to save my life like my 7.62x25 Tok, 9mm, 38spl, .357mag, or heck my 44mag if you really make me mad.

I do own a NAA Mini 22lr revolver for a backup for CCW. I also have a hail Mary Baby Browning (chrome with pearl) 25acp, for HD, God forbid if I ever needed that thing. It was a gift, but that's another story for another time.

Ok, which "bullet" is typically longer? Overall shell, and bullet the 22lr is longer. And I'm not talking about that specialty long sub sonic 22 60g with the short shell with the longer bullet.

I just pulled out an UMC 50g FMJ, and a GDHP 35g in .25acp, and, I pulled out a CCI Stinger 32g, and a Remington Thunderbolt 40g in 22lr.

Wow, what a contrast! The two 22lr shell's has different shell length's. The CCI is longer (shell), but the overall length is about the same.
So I guess there is no definitive answer, unless you pulled out the bullet out of the shells and measure them.

But I learned something here, a 22lr shell is not a 22lr shell, is a 22lr shell.
Did you get that? Some are longer or shorter.

I'd still like to know just for sakes, are the .25acp are longer or shorter? But I think I answered my own question in a quirky kind of way.

Thank you.
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Old February 13, 2012, 04:01 PM   #7
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They can have differing case lengths because of the heeled bullet design. The part of the bullet that bears against the rifling of the barrel is the same diameter of the exterior of the cartridge case, as it is in all heeled-bullet designs. In this way, the .22LR is like the lone survivor of a bygone era. These bullets must be outside-lubed because the protected part of the bullet inside the case (theoretically) doesn't make contact with the rifling.

You should find that standard .22 Long (hard to find these days) uses a case that's the same length as most .22LR, but with a lighter bullet.

At the risk of drifting this thread (apologies, but seems relevant to the topic while probably not worthy of it's own thread), it sure seems to me that the shooting community would really benefit from a totally revamped .22LR round.

Obviously, we are talking about a 100-year old cartridge here, and while it works 100% perfectly for plinking and small game hunting and paper-punching, it's anemic for the role of personal defense. Because of that, I don't put it in that role and I don't recommend that anyone does.

But if we look at it's size and if we look at what it would take to build a pistol to handle the same sized round at a MUCH increased pressure, it doesn't seem to me to be a stretch to ramp the heck out of the pressure of it.

I'm no designer nor metallurgist, but I look at a 9mm round -- 35,000 PSI max and I see the amount of steel around the round that contains this pressure and it just seems like the .22LR running in the mid-20k range is quite anemic to today's standards.

Obviously, the logistics are a colossal nightmare. There's already 8.5 billion .22LR chambered firearms, so introducing a "new" .22LR of the same size but with a 40,000 PSI chamber pressure would turn the entire planet upside down, so I'm not suggesting that they do it.

BUT...
Don't ya think that the .22LR could be made better, at least for the folks who insist on toting one around in a defensive role, if we ramped up the pressure to something more fitting to the year 2012 than what it is? Just seems like it with the quality of steel these days, building .22LR pistols wouldn't need to be beefed up much to handle a 40,000 PSI .22LR round.

Again, it would be a horrendous nightmare given the place the .22LR claims. I just wonder, though, how much more "power" or "performance" you could squeeze from the round if you brought the pressure up to modern day levels.

And no, I don't think the .22 Mag fills that role. The .22 Mag is horrendously L-O-N-G and the max pressure in that one is anemic, too, at least compared to modern handgun rounds of this century.
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Old February 13, 2012, 07:11 PM   #8
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well its a given fact, if weight is to stay constant, then length must increase to keep a given diameter. hence the 22lr is longer in length.

there is an improved up pressured version of the 22lr in case you have not been looking to hard at the shelf. I believe its called the "22 WMR", it is a little known cartridge in the rimfire department.
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Old February 13, 2012, 09:14 PM   #9
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In a quality semi auto firearm, 25acp will load much more reliably.

With the market the way it is, there is no need to improve the 22LR in its current state. They can introduce new cartridges and introduce firearm designed to integrate it to make money.
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Old February 14, 2012, 12:14 AM   #10
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Knowing what I know now about 22lr rifle "shell only" length, the CCI Stinger 32g is longer than the Remington "Shell only" Thunderbolt 40g. But being the "shell only" of the Remington 40g is shorter, but the overall length with the bullet's is the really close to the same comparing them side by side, the stinger is just barely longer to the eye.
I don't have any Aguila 60g sub-sonic ammo, which the "shell only" is really short, I've seen one before, seem's to be half shell and half bullet in length.
TBS, I would guess it's overall bullet and shell, it's similar to the other's I mentioned.

My OP, I was curious about the comparison of the 25acp bullet length to the 22lr. But I now see the variances of the 22lr bullet size, some might be longer and some might be shorter than the 25acp bullet. But overall the 22lr is longer than the 25acp.

I "wasn't" talking about carrying, or power between the two. I do carry an NAA 22lr mini revolver alongside with my .38spl or my .357 snub mostly. The Baby browning 25 is just a collector piece I shot a few time, it's just to beautiful to carry. Although I keep it loaded (35g GDHP and yes they feed) it's not really my HD gun either.
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Old February 14, 2012, 01:06 AM   #11
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Quote:
there is an improved up pressured version of the 22lr in case you have not been looking to hard at the shelf. I believe its called the "22 WMR", it is a little known cartridge in the rimfire department.
I'm not sure if this was sarcastic humor or not. The .22 WMR is the "Winchester Magnum Rimfire" which is the official name of the round we call the .22 Mag.

There is another hardly known old rimfire round that is similar in name, called the .22 WRF, the .22 Winchester Rim Fire, and it's not safely used in either .22LR or .22 Mag. I believe Winchester made a more recent run of these rifles, and so they also made a run of the ammo, but it's basically a defunct round. That might be the one you are referring to, and thus not making a joke.
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Old February 14, 2012, 03:19 PM   #12
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.22 WRF can be safely used in .22 WMR.
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Old February 15, 2012, 12:09 AM   #13
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Aguila 60g sub-sonic ammo

I used the Aguila 60g sub-sonic ammo in my 22lr Beretta and the bullets key-holded. I also have the Beretta .25 ACP but do not shoot it as much as my 22lr. I still have almost two bricks of the Aguila that I now wish that I had not purchased.

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Old February 15, 2012, 01:14 AM   #14
Bill DeShivs
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The Aguila 60 grain ammunition is designed for suppressed weapons with a different rifling twist. That's why it keyholes.
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Old February 15, 2012, 03:00 AM   #15
Walklightly
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Lemmon

Do me a favor and compare the overall length with some other 22lr ammo.
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Old February 15, 2012, 10:08 AM   #16
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Quote:
.22 WRF can be safely used in .22 WMR.
...but usually not the reverse. Perhaps Sevens got this confused.

That said, I don't think any new firearms have been made in .22WRF in decades; the round was arguably already obsolescent shortly after WWII.

.22WRF generally won't cycle the action of a .22WMR / .22Mag semi-automatic; they may have to be single-loaded and hand-cycled, just like using .22 Long, .22 Short, or CB rounds in a .22LR gun. However, this isn't really a safety issue.
Quote:
The Aguila 60 grain ammunition is designed for suppressed weapons with a different rifling twist.
+1; Lemmon, this is why aftermarket companies such as Tactical Solutions sell Ruger 10/22 barrels and Mk-series pistol uppers that are specially designed for subsonic rounds. It's not just the threaded muzzle that's different; the rifling twist is optimized for the 60gr Aguila bullet.
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Old February 15, 2012, 07:11 PM   #17
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my remarks on the little known 22 wmr aka 22 mag was sarcasm at its best.

the aquila subsonics are designed for an oddball twist of 1 turn in 7 inches. from what ive read, only one company in south america makes a commercial rifle with that rate of twist. oh well.
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Old February 15, 2012, 11:59 PM   #18
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I actually did not realize that you can safely (or properly?) shoot .22 WRF in a .22 WMR chambered firearm.

I *think* that Winchester made a short run of rifles of some sort in the 1980s or 1990s that actually used the old .22 WRF -- or it could be that Winchester made a run of that ammo somewhere around that time frame, but didn't make any firearms for it, just spit out some of the ammo.

It is a dead cartridge, but there has been some recent modern ammo made.
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Old February 17, 2012, 07:55 PM   #19
Walklightly
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Ok, anybody have the Aguila 60g to compare to any other 22lr's in overall length? Not just the shell.

Also, nobody commented about what happed to the 25acp GDHP that I shot into a pool. I thought that was pretty interesting how it expanded, and only one peddle stuck out,
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Old February 18, 2012, 02:26 AM   #20
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Ballistics of the 22LR and 25ACP are about the same and good quality modern 22LR ammo is reliable, so they are about equal in results. The shooter is the weak link in the system. Bullet placement is absolutely critical with these tiny carteidges and 22LR ammo is a fraction of the cost of 25ACP. Unless you have a very large ammunition budget, you will never practice enough with a .25 to be able to use it effectively.
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Old February 18, 2012, 01:10 PM   #21
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walklightly,

Please take this as constructive criticism. You are using terms that are not sufficiently descriptive to explain your problem.

A "bullet" is the projectile that goes out of the barrel.

The "case" is the brass part into which the bullet is inserted.

The "cartridge" is the complete round.

The term "shell" can mean either the case or the cartridge, depending on who's talking. Since it's imprecise, it's not a good idea to use this term in these kinds of discussions.

Having said that, you can refer to bullet length, case length, or overall cartridge length. Cartridge length is often abbreviated as OAL (overall length), COAL (cartridge overall length), or COL (same thing).

If you could re-work your question using these commonly understood terms you will have a better chance of getting meaningful responses.
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Old February 18, 2012, 05:15 PM   #22
Walklightly
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Quote:
moxie walklightly,

Please take this as constructive criticism. You are using terms that are not sufficiently descriptive to explain your problem.

A "bullet" is the projectile that goes out of the barrel.

The "case" is the brass part into which the bullet is inserted.

The "cartridge" is the complete round.

The term "shell" can mean either the case or the cartridge, depending on who's talking. Since it's imprecise, it's not a good idea to use this term in these kinds of discussions.

Having said that, you can refer to bullet length, case length, or overall cartridge length. Cartridge length is often abbreviated as OAL (overall length), COAL (cartridge overall length), or COL (same thing).

If you could re-work your question using these commonly understood terms you will have a better chance of getting meaningful responses.
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Old February 18, 2012, 10:21 PM   #23
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Raining, thankfully.
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Old February 19, 2012, 02:01 AM   #24
Walklightly
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Quote:
walklightly,

Please take this as constructive criticism. You are using terms that are not sufficiently descriptive to explain your problem.

A "bullet" is the projectile that goes out of the barrel.

The "case" is the brass part into which the bullet is inserted.

The "cartridge" is the complete round.

The term "shell" can mean either the case or the cartridge, depending on who's talking. Since it's imprecise, it's not a good idea to use this term in these kinds of discussions.

Having said that, you can refer to bullet length, case length, or overall cartridge length. Cartridge length is often abbreviated as OAL (overall length), COAL (cartridge overall length), or COL (same thing).

If you could re-work your question using these commonly understood terms you will have a better chance of getting meaningful responses.
Thanks for the condescending words.

I have no problems, it is what it is. It was just an inquiry.
Length.=?

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Raining, thankfully
That work's, because I know texan's can't drive in snow.
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Old February 19, 2012, 02:42 AM   #25
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He was not being condescending. Your question is difficult to understand because weapons slang varies from region to region. Hence the request to clarify with language we can all understand.
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