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Old February 13, 2012, 10:47 AM   #51
Bartholomew Roberts
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Can it work? Sure. However, if it worked reliably on a consistent basis with training and practice, you would see people who fight with guns professionally use it. The fact that you really don't see that anywhere is a good clue that there are some significant drawbacks to .22LR for that purpose.

It seems to me like your question has more to do with whether those drawbacks are severe enough that it would be better to substitute another platform for your girlfriend. Part of the answer to your question is what the two of you can afford to buy, afford to shoot, and will actually go out and shoot and become familiar with. And as you probably already know, plinking on the range is good for familiarity and weapon manipulation; but it isn't the same thing as training for a gunfight.

It is hard to answer your question because none of us are really in a position to evaluate those last factors. A .22lr rifle that she knows how to use and shoots for fun is going to be better than 20ga shotgun with buckshot that she never shoots and is uncertain how to use. You are probably in the best position to evaluate where she is at on that stuff; but look at your criteria again - if a .22LR met all of those criteria well, you'd see it used a lot more often in a lot more places.
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Old February 13, 2012, 10:44 PM   #52
Bubba in c.a.
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.22s don`t have much stopping power. Simple fix, shoot him more times! BUT, what is safer for you and bystanders: 10 shots of 22 or 1 shot of buckshot?

Not to mention the risk to you because of the time it takes to shoot 10 times.
Same argument for almost all handgun ammo: shoot him till he falls down, or shoot him till you run out of ammo and then pistol whip him until one of you wins the fight. Or just go get shotgun with some buck.

Incidently, i have a very dear friend who I recently set up with a Ruger single six 22 for HD. Why? Because after much experimentation it is the only gun she is strong enough to cock and shoot. That`s pretty much the only reason for picking a 22 for HD. I would have preferred a 410 single shot with buck, but she coundn`t handle it.
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Old February 14, 2012, 03:47 PM   #53
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First of all, no commonly available firearm will negate the risk of overpenetration. The interior walls of most modern homes and apartments are little more than pine 2x4's spaced about a foot apart and covered over with drywall. Nearly any common firearm, including a .22LR can easily penetrate two sheets of drywall.

As far as the terminal ballistics of a .22 are concerned, why not simply look at how they perform in ballistic gelatin?

http://www.brassfetcher.com/var22lrrifle.html

Now, what do we want in a self-defense bullet? Most people prefer a bullet that will expand as much as possible while still penetrating somewhere between 12" and 16" in order to ensure that it can reach the vitals of a very large attacker or one shot at an oblique angle. In the brassfetcher link, only three .22 Long Rifle loadings meet this criteria: the CCI Velocitor (13.3" penetration and .335" expansion), the Federal 36gr JHP (14.3" penetration and .308" expansion), and the Remington Golden Bullet JHP (11.9" penetration and .340" expansion). Between these three, my choice would be the CCI Velocitor as it seems to deliver the best balance of penetration and expansion.

So, how do the Velocitors stack up against other common firearms? Again looking at brassfetcher, we see that a Fiocchi .32 Auto 73gr FMJ fired from a Kel-Tec P32 penetrates slightly more than the CCI Velocitor at 13.8" but does not expand so final diameter would be approximately .311".

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Various%...%20P32%29.html

A .380 Auto 95gr FMJ, when fired from a Kel-Tec P3AT penetrates in excess of 16" but does not expand so final diameter would be approximately .355". Also, the .380 FMJ may yaw somewhat depending on the shape of the bullet (TC vs. RN).

Unless very specific organs are hit, the moderate amount of energy produced by these cartridges will have minimal, if any, effect on terminal performance. Even so, energies can be fairly easily compared. CCI advertises the Velocitor as a 40gr bullet at 1435fps for 183 ft lbs energy, Federal advertises their .380 FMJ loading as a 95gr bullet at 980fps for 203 ft lbs energy, and Fiocchi advertises their .32 Auto FMJ as a 73gr bullet at 980fps for 155 ft lbs energy.

Therefore, in just about every measurable way, the best .22 LR loading available, from a rifle, gives us performance in between that of a .32 Auto FMJ and .380 Auto FMJ.

Ballistics aside, there are other factors which must be considered as well. On the plus side, a .22 rifle is one of the very easiest firearms to shoot because both recoil and report are very mild. Also .22 Long Rifle ammunition is the least expensive available which makes high-volume practice quite affordable. Finally, quality .22 rifles are less expensive, by and large, than comparable firearms in other calibers.

The downside to a .22, besides ballistics, is reliability. The relatively long, skinny rimmed cartridge is one of the most problematic when it comes to feed reliability in a repeating firearm. The outside-lubricated heel-based bullet also presents problems in and of itself. Because the bullet lube is on the exterior of the cartridge, dirt is more attracted and the lube itself will more quickly foul the gun. Also, heel-based bullets do not seal the powder and primer from contaminants such as oil and moisture as well as inside-lubricated bullets do. Rimfire primers are more susceptible to misfire due to quality-control issues (the centrifuge that spreads the priming compound must be run for a certain amount of time to spread it evenly) than centerfire primers and, because .22LR ammo is usually marketed for non-critical applications such as plinking, target-shooting, and small game/pest control, QC issues seem to be more common.

IMHO, a .22 rifle isn't the worst possible choice as I think it would be preferable to a .22 or .25 Handgun. However, unless a more powerful centerfire gun simply is not a viable option due to recoil sensitivity or finances, I think that something more powerful and more reliable such as a pistol-caliber carbine or .410-20 gauge shotgun would be a better choice.
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Old February 14, 2012, 07:43 PM   #54
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About .22LR and wall penetration, I stacked up some scrap pine 2X4 lumber to see how many a .22 would penetrate. A .22 High velocity shot out of an 18 inch barrel will go through four of them.
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Old February 15, 2012, 03:45 PM   #55
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All this talk of over pentration makes my head hurt. Unless you all live in brick house all guns will penetrate. While I don't want to go sending a bunch of FMJ's around the neighborhood I'm gonna use what's best at the job and hope I don't overcome lotery like odds of hitting a bystander.

As for the .22 carbine. I'm a firm beleiver in the first rule of gunfighting is to have a gun and the caliber/cartridge comes in a VERY distant second. Most gun fights can/will be ended with anything and the rare BG's that are all tough are gonna be all tough much of the time even if hit with better calibers.

That being said ask your self what you want in your hands if you absolutly have to stop him now. I spend almost zero time thinkin about HD guns but I think I'd choose a single shot 12ga over a .22 carbine and eitehr is far from my first choice.

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Old February 15, 2012, 03:50 PM   #56
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sounds to me like you need a calico, 100 rounds of .22lr is nothing to be messed with

I only recently heard of the gun when someone from here in NJ was arrested on assult weapon charges for posessing one. after some quick research it seems like a pretty damn cool gun
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Old February 15, 2012, 09:23 PM   #57
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When a .22 was what I had, it felt good. I was, and still am, very practiced and proficient.

Since those days two (maybe more) .22LR rounds have come out that improve the ballistics of the round for SD. CCI's Velocitor and the Winchester's 40 grain Hyper Speed HP. They do hit noticeably harder on flesh.
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Old February 16, 2012, 11:06 AM   #58
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I can't raise any powerful objections to the idea. Better to be armed with even as few as 10 rounds of .22 lr than to be equipped with a weapon that is even more inappropriate.

I'd much rather see her armed with a better, harder hitting choice, for example, any 9mm or .30 caliber carbine.

Would you fire a .22 lr at a rottweiler, pit bull, coyote, or even black bear, and expect it to disable that animal? if not, why would you expect it to work on a human? Any large mammal would require probably between 5-10 solid body shots with .22 lr to incapacitate, except in the very best case scenarios.

That is my objection. If heart/lung/vital nerve centers are missed, a .22 will not cause enough damage and trauma to put the bad guy into shock or bleed him out quickly.

Another consideration is reliability. Rimfire ammo has a tendency to fail. .22 rifles, in my experience, tend to jam. you can't allow that.

Speaking plainly, will she die tomorrow just because you put a 10-22 in her closet? Not likely. Will she survive a gunfight with a 10-22? Most likely.

Would her chances of survival, and the chances of her two children be better if she had 14 rounds of good 9mm ammo at her disposal? I'm pretty sure that they would be.

Now, analyze how much risk you are willing to take with her life, and the lives of her children.
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Old February 16, 2012, 03:21 PM   #59
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I am a little bit irritated that everyone expects an intruder to ignore that someone is armed with a firearm and shooting at him. I am no expert but I believe the average intruder will prefer to leave as quick as possible as soon as he detects resistance with the potential of death and not investigate what caliber is flying around him.
If you have an intruder that ignores that fact you have a major problem that I believe will not be solved with a major handgun cartrige. In that situation I would hope to have a major rifle cartrige firearm in my hand.

7
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Old February 16, 2012, 06:25 PM   #60
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7-

At that point you are hoping that the person attacking you chooses to not continue to attack. I, for one, want to take all elements of choice out of the equation if I can.

Lots of gunfire sounds the same when your on the receiving end. If you miss, the intruder may say "fudge this noise" and leave. Goal met, but by his choice, not yours.

If you hit with a small round the likelihood of an immediately incapicating injury is low. At that point you are hoping he again says "fudge this noise" and chooses to leave. Goal met, but at his choice.

The larger the round you put into an intruder (all other things being equal) the more likely he will be unable to make the choice to continue.

With handguns there is a constant compromise between caliber, weight, size, recoil, and capacity. Since we're talking carbines here almost all of that is moot.
A 22lr carbine isn't much heavier than a 9mm, 5.7, or 30 carbine platform. While there is more recoil they are all very manageable for almost everyone. Size is again similar since they all have 16" or larger barrels. All of these carry enough rounds to defend yourself.

Since almost everything with these carbines is equal (except cost) there is no compelling argument to pick a 22lr for anyone who is not ├╝ber recoil sensitive.
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Old February 16, 2012, 08:34 PM   #61
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Quote:
Would you fire a .22 lr at a rottweiler, pit bull, coyote, or even black bear, and expect it to disable that animal? if not, why would you expect it to work on a human? Any large mammal would require probably between 5-10 solid body shots with .22 lr to incapacitate, except in the very best case scenarios.
Well.... I've acheived one shot stops on 3 out of those 4 examples with a .22 carbine.... What do I win?
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Old February 16, 2012, 09:19 PM   #62
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Me and my shootin buds did some chronographing with 22 LR ammo and we found that the most efficient bbl length is 10". What I don't know is if this info is a good indicator of performance across the board, or just in our guns.

CCI Stingers
980 FPS (FA Mini-Revo 1-1/8")
1192 FPS (Ruger Bearcat 4")
1516 FPS (Ruger MK II 10")
1550 FPS (Ruger 10/22 18")

CCI Velocitors
1126 FPS/ 34 AD/ 165 ES (Ruger 10/22 18")

As for the stopping power or lack thereof, I think that it's more how you wield it than the actual caliber (perhaps in most cases at least). In a raging firefight of course I would want a larger caliber that has more penetration, but for most of us, a 22 would be enough to make most evildoers back down. I'm looking real hard at Rugers Charger pistol right now. I think it'd make a dandy house gun with a red dot and a fat Mag.

Last edited by Edward429451; February 16, 2012 at 09:26 PM.
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Old February 17, 2012, 04:20 AM   #63
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@ kinoons

The situation is rather bliss if the attacker prefers to continue his attack although resistence is evident. Having a handgun caliber rifle only improves your chances marginaly. Improvements have been made with modern bullet construction, but still there are countless reports of failure to stop someone/something with multiple rounds fired. If this situation ever happens to me, I hope to have a highpower riflecaliber or shotgun firearm in my hands.
Emptying a 10/15/17/33 round magazine into someone might be frowend on by the law depending on where you live. And proving you needed all that firepower to stop one assailant won't be easy.
This whole discussion arises from the typical fear of people that zombie like hords will run down your perimeter to steal your can of campells soup. I belive that not to be the norm for homedefense.

If I am wrong please correct me.

7
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Old February 18, 2012, 01:41 AM   #64
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sleeper --

having a handgun caliber carbine only marginally improves your odds? How do you come to this conclusion, and compared to what? A carbine vs a handgun in the same caliber?

from Ballistics by the inch -- 9mm test
(steyr s9 vs keltec sub 2000)
FHS 147 grain, my personal favorite -- 931fps vs 1086fps or 155fps to the carbine

Corbon 125 grain +P gets you 1178fps vs 1387 fps or
209fps to the carbine

if a 5.7x28 is your preferred cartage (fiveseven pistol vs ps90 carbine)
46grain Protector III -- 1850 fps vs 1400fps -- 350 fps to the carbine
40grain Protector I -- 2092fps vs 2650fps -- 558fps to the carbine

a 30 carbine (110 grain) leaves an m1 carbine at 1990fps. It goes 1440fps from a revolver (a 7.5" barrel revolver). again advantage carbine at 550fps

So, as we would expect, you get a lot more energy from a carbine. This frequently equates to deeper penetration, but may not get you larger expansion.

from http://www.shootingillustrated.com/i...iber-carbines/

Terminal Performance Comparison
Load EXP (inches) RW (grains) PEN (inches)
9 mm 124-grain Speer Pistol .71 124 13.25
9 mm 124-grain Speer Carbine .45 107 17.50
9 mm Federal 115-grain JHP(P) .57 114 14.50
9 mm Federal 115-grain JHP(C) .50 70 16.00

This is why I advocate for the heaviest round your pistol or carbine will reliably cycle. Out of the longer barrel you get more velocity but remain closer to the best performance for your ammo. The heavier ammo also will penetrate deeper since it conserves its momentum longer.

I was unable to find any specific tests comparing any 5.7x28 or 30 carbine rounds from a pistol vs carbine. I would venture to guess (I hate guessing) that since both the 30 carbine and 5.7x28 were designed first as carbine rounds they will perform well from their respective platforms.

back to the point, since I can ramble. A carbine offers many advantages compared to a pistol -- longer sight radius, electronic sights if you desire, larger ammunition capacities, easier to train and become proficient with. The only drawback is the larger size may limit usability with one hand.

Your premise that we are preparing for a zombie hoard is a false one. The simple truth is that a carbine is a more effective tool for incapacitating an attacker than a pistol is. Because of this, given the option to choose, I would pick my ps90 over my walther PPS for a firefight. In the context of this thread, I would choose my ps90 over a ruger 10/22.
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Old February 18, 2012, 04:41 AM   #65
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@ kinoons

Thanks for the info and the link. No offense ment with my little provocative/ironical zombie comment.

What I find disturbing in all of the comparative tests I have seen sofar is that there is no mentioning of at what penetration depth the expansion began in 1.handgun 2. carabine. Further the pics of nice "naked" gelatine is always impressive but it doesn't corrolate to reallity. There have been quite a few tests that I read of where "plugging" of the cavity of the hollowpoint, by clotheing put before the gelatine block, have been described, transforming the hollowpoint to a "roundnose" projectile. So what are we doing with a "full metal jaket" round in selfdefense? Many of us know how effective it is to hunt with full metal jacket. [Yeah I know the only option for brain shoots on elephant, rhino, etc.] (Just throwing in some provocative ideas to hopefully get some scientifically done results that I have not been aware of. Hearsay is not an option when life is on hand.)
My comment on handgun vs. carabine was from the fact that many survivors of firearm conflicts still have the projectiles imbeded in their body. So it comes down to shot placement as the major factor to killing your opponent. Bullet design and caliber improve your chances, but having someone die later on because of tissue damage done to the intestines will not satisfy your mourning relatives.
My whole comment derives from the fact that intruders are seldom totally stupid(even crackheads). They all posses an instinkt for survival. That is also the reason why they are intruding your home. So if you awake early enough to prepare your firearm and warn them that you are armed, I donot believe that the majority will be willing to neglect their survival instinct. Something has gone wrong anyhow if you are at home and the intruder is trying to come in. The majority wants to intrude undisturbed so they will choose moments when you are not at home. That is a statistical fact.
I totaly agree that a hollowoint will probably improve your survival and firing it from a carabine will make it even more impressive. But if it has come sofar your preventive measures have not been sufficient.

7

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Old February 18, 2012, 09:49 AM   #66
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Sleeper

I agree that gel isnt the perfect test medium, but it is a consistent one allowing round performance to be compaired on equal footing.

This all boils down to exactly how prepared we want to be. I agree with you that 99% of conflicts will be resolved by the presence of a firearm and it's first shot. The question then becomes how well do you want to equip yourself for that 1% chance. When limited to a handgun, such a during daily concealed carry, there becomes a major limitation between size, weight, caliber, and capacity.

Since this thread started as a home defense carbine thread those limitations are not present. In the overwhelming majority of instances a 22lr carbine will end a conflict. However, since the difference between a 22lr carbine and a larger caliber carbine is negligible, I advocate a larger one. That doesn't mean that a 22lr is junk, just that there are better options to cover the remaining 1% of conflicts.

I also agree that there are many factors to a successful defensive shooting. With the round used being only a single variable, it is important to train so that shot placement and follow-up shot times are not the limiting factors.
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Old February 19, 2012, 01:54 PM   #67
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No one sugested a RUGER CHARGER .I know it is a PISTOL not a CARBINE .But it is on my short list for this year .
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Old February 19, 2012, 03:47 PM   #68
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Ditto on the Ruger Charger.
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Old February 21, 2012, 07:01 AM   #69
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imho i think that for hd a 12 gauge with birdshot works fine in a pump 18.5" platform, a 22lr in carbine platform is good too, but accounting for the possible jambing that might happen at worst possible moment, but also considered the kel-tec pmr-30(if you can get your hands on one) is a good option aswell because of it's 30 round magazine and being a 22 wmr giving a little more power than 22lr.
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Old February 21, 2012, 10:18 AM   #70
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For those recommending the Ruger Charger, here is a major caveat.

Get rid of the OEM wood laminated stock that it comes with and drop it into an Axiom stock.

The problem with the OEM wood stock is that it isn't a true pistol grip. The Charger, although technically a pistol isn't meant for pistol styled shooting, especially in its OEM form. BTW, the Charger is probably one of the better choices (after a 9 or 10 shot wheel gun in 22LR) for home-defense if the user is only comfortable with 22LR.
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Old February 21, 2012, 10:52 AM   #71
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Our local Sportsman's Club has had a 2-Gun Match for several years. We have also had a Rimfire Division for several years. We started out with lots of 10-22's in various configurations in the Rimfire Division. The equipment evolution has most shooters in Rimfire Division shooting some form of an AR15-22 now days. M&P-22, Sig 522, and various Rimfire uppers on AR15 lowers. Weapons sights are all over the place also. We have open sights, Eotec's, UltraDot's, Low Magnification Scopes, etc.

As a Match Official I am also involved in Scoring, and Pasteing the targets. What we see with rimfire is normally both shots are very close together center mass in the targets. We Double Tap all targets. It is very common to paste both bullet holes with a single target paster. I also see very good accuracy, and shot placement with rimfire. The malfunction rate also seems much better with the AR style rifles.

Lets look at a few points.
The 22 rimfire is very economical to train/practice with.
The 22 rimfire has a very low recoil impulse, so the new shooter will not develope a flench while learning to shoot.
The 22 rimfire by nature is great to plink with. With the low cost of practice ammunition any shooter can get in enough trigger time to get good.
I like the 22 rimfire as a training tool, for all the above reasons. With any centerfire, ammunition cost is going to be a limiting factor in the amount of live fire practice/training that can be done.

The young fellow getting his girlfriend to shoot at all is a huge step in the correct direction.
I am a firm believer in being prepaired. I also think the 22 LR has a place in prepairedness. It has the advantage of being the only cartridge most folks can stock enough ammunition in to last for a long period of time without a significant drain on your daily resources for a long period of time. It is not a big drain for most of us to add another 550 pak to our supply every week or two.

A 22 carbine while not the ideal home defense weapon, can get the job done. In an AR Platform it can be upgraded with a weapons light down the road. Additional magazines can be added to your supplies. A weapons mounted Laser Sight can also be added if needed. Sights can be upgraded from Open, to a Red Dot, or Eotec as time passes. If you are working with a weapons system like a Tactical Solutions AR15-22 Upper, you can add a centerfire Upper Assembly at a later date. At this point you can still get in lots of quality trigger time with the 22, and in less than a minute switch your rimfire upper out to a centerfire. Also all the add ons like the weapons light will mount on the centerfire. And best of all everything is pretty much identical. The stock is the same, the trigger is the same, everything feels the same. No issues with transition. And a really great advantage, you can keep building on the AR15 platform over time. You do not need to invest in everything at once.

In my opinion the 22 carbine will keep her well enough armed until she is ready to move up to more power. The most important thing at this point is getting in enough trigger time to feel comfortable with what she is using. The 22 rimfire is the best solution to getting in that trigger time.

Bob
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Old February 21, 2012, 06:24 PM   #72
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This is my point of view -

Any gun is better than a sharp stick. I've had a 10/22 since my dad gave his to me 20 years ago, and it was at least 10 years old then. I can count the number of reliability issues I've had on one hand, so FWIW, there you are.

My girlfriend wanted a HD gun, what did we decide on?

A short barreled Mossberg 20 gauge pump, with number 6 shot and cylinder choke.

Here's why:

Relatively inexpensive
Little training to become proficient
A slide racking is the universal noise for go away.

After three trips to the range and a few boxes of shells, she can reliably hit an area about the size of a paper plate at 7 yards, from the hip. I epoxied a straight line down the receiver (right above the trigger) so she can feel it in the dark and point pretty consistently. Further than that, and she is comfortable shouldering the gun properly. 6 shot will go through one wall like a slug at any kind of interior range. It's non unreasonable to hope a few walls will stop or slow it down to the point of impotence. It will certainly do the job through an interior hollow core door. I think any argument about the ballistic capabilities of a shotshell that isn't buckshot are pretty pointless at HD ranges. Walk your GF's place...I'd be surprised if there is longer than a 10 yard uninterrupted run.

I'd gladly take a .22 over nothing (if the SHTF my .22 would be my go to gun) but as a purpose owned weapon, there are just better options.
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Old February 21, 2012, 06:44 PM   #73
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I don't think a ballistics argument at hd range is pointless. Even at point blank range a 20 gauge with 6 shot is not going to be fatal. We had a patient once who had taken #7 shot from a 12 gauge at less than ten feet to the chest. Only 2 bbs penetrated into the lungs. He was in a lot of pain but it was far from a life threatening injury. Had that been buck shot or a slug it would have killed him. I think I'd rather take a good knife or a wooden bat over a .22lr in an hd setting. But that's just me.
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Old February 21, 2012, 10:16 PM   #74
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Again, look at the Reagan shooting. While 22LR is not my 1st choice for HD/SD, a 22 LR handgun (revolver) immediately took 3 out of action - 1 SS agent hit in the abdomen, 1 police officer hit in the neck, and Brady, struck in the head. All of them hit the ground unable to rise again. Reagan became dyspneic (short of breath) soon after he was put in the limo and taken to GWU Hospital where he collapsed just inside the front door. So I have great respect for the potential of the often-dismissed 22 LR cartridge.
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Old February 21, 2012, 11:43 PM   #75
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Use what you can get in her hands.

My wife (who grew up in an anti-gun family) was extremely fearful of a firearm when she met me. The first time she ever handled a firearm was with me and its been a long time since that first time. She started shooting just my 10/22 - wouldn't touch anything else for fear of recoil and report. She wouldn't even consider a firearm for HD at that point. After a while I managed to convince her to try my AR with my CMMG .22LR upper on it. At that point in time she decided that she'd be willing to go for that if she needed to use a weapon for HD.

After a couple years of that she hesitantly moved to a handgun in .22LR. Then after some time after that she moved to a .380acp. Now she owns a Ruger LCP and practices with it twice a week. She's telling me that she's considering moving to the Ruger LCR in .38sp... so now its time to take her gun shopping again. I think eventually she'll move on to a 9x19. Do I expect her to ever move on to a .40 or .45? Absolutely not. Do I think that eventually I'll have her reaching for a 9mm pistol of some sort for HD and PD? Absolutely.

For a couple of years though I was happy just to know that she'd at least reach for A gun for HD rather than just hiding in the bedroom and being a victim (or worse yet allowing our children to be victims) while she's got loaded guns all around her.

In a case like this - a .22LR carbine is better than nothing. Is it the best option? Of course not but its definitely not the worst.
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