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Old February 10, 2012, 11:37 AM   #26
Tennessee Jed
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Sometimes, especially with significant others, it's possible that the only gun she will shoot and attain any level of familiarity with, is a 22 rifle. An AR, shotgun, Glock, etc. that she won't shoot regularly is useless. Maybe worse than useless. And if she doesn't enjoy shooting the gun in question, you can probably forget about attaining any level of familiarity.

If that is your situation (and it is my situation, too), then I see nothing wrong with a 22 semi-auto carbine. If she shoots the carbine well, it sure beats a can of pepper spray. If she shoots it really well, then she would be a very scary person to cross in a hallway. I know some women who are fiercely accurate with 22's.
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Old February 10, 2012, 11:52 AM   #27
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Yep. She Who Must Be Obeyed can pop shot gun shell cases at 25 yards.
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Old February 10, 2012, 11:56 AM   #28
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I'm not recommending that your girl friend get a shotgun but..

I have seen some posts recomending a shotgun, and recomending gauge and load, so I thought I'd post this.

Firearms Tactical Institute report recomends #1 Buck

Quote:
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.
Quote:
Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances.
Quote:
A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body

The full report:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm



.

I'm not saying she should get a 12ga, I'm just putting the info out there for #1 Buck.

I do think however that there are better options out there for her than the .22LR carbine.
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Old February 10, 2012, 12:03 PM   #29
Bill DeShivs
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Rifles are easier to shoot than pistols. Rifles have higher muzzle velocity than pistols-especially .22 rifles. Bullet expansion from the .22 lr (from a 16" barrel) is good, as is penetration. The muzzle energy from a .22 carbine is as good as (or better than) most pistol cartridges up to .38 special.
With reliable, tested ammunition a semi auto .22 carbine is a formidable weapon-especially in the hands of an experienced shooter. No gun is better suited for informal target shooting-which makes the user ultimately familiar and comfortable with the weapon. You don't need 25 or 50 round magazines, either.
I have built a couple of Marlin 60s with 16" barrels and shortened stocks for home defense over the years.
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Old February 10, 2012, 12:13 PM   #30
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A .22 carbine style rifle should be in everyone's home defense and bug out kit. Perhaps it will be secondary or even third choice for many of us, but it's still a good item. I would prefer the handgun for close quarter, if room clearing is the need and cover is limited; however, if the situation is a sit in cover and wait for 'em, a .22 carbine or 20 guage youth pump or 12 guage should work if cover is available a reasonable distance from the entry way.
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Old February 10, 2012, 12:42 PM   #31
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Lots of good points here. If you're not afraid of the rifle you are using you actually shot it more often and able to make better placement shots. I found this out when I was a kid and the low cost of .22lr helped. With this in mind and being in a apt and at 63 I'm tired of high powered rifles. So I bought a 10/22 and ten magazines and call it my poor man's assault rifle. At close range you can put a bunch of rounds in a good group. I need some 25 round magazines too. As mentioned the important thing is that she is enjoying shooting, enjoying being with friends and family and I'd be glad to have her family as my neighbor any day. Hopefully another NRA member. Congrats and enjoy.
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Old February 10, 2012, 12:52 PM   #32
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tc, here are some of my real life experiences of mine. they are fact:

well first watch this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEDo_PbAvJc. the 22LR CCI 40gr velocitor are amazing. checkout the "fart" from the entrance wound. the bullet went to the ten inch mark. rotate those with some hot round nose for extra penetration and you are good to go.

my real life experiences:

please don't buy a ruger 10/22 for home defense. i have a couple and they are great .22lr rifles but the malfunction rate is way too high for sd/hd. i used them for years and years but would never want to depend on them.

i finally found a couple semi auto .22lr rifles that i can depend on. the sig 522 and the s&w 15-22. buy new ones, the first models of both rifles had bugs to work out.

i own the sig 522 and my brother in law owns the 15-22. i had 4 failure to feed in the 522 within the first 3 mags shot through it. that was using wal mart federal bulk, winchester 555, cci, remington bulk, and that mexican stuff.

and that was it. over 8,000 rounds of wal mart federal bulk later my sig 522 had 0 malfunctions. except for maybe 5 or so dud rounds. quite impressive for bulk ammo. the only problem is with the black dog mags, not the 522 its self. the spring in the mags are weak and if the insides aren't lubed it will hang up sometimes resulting in no round for the rifle to feed.

thats the main reason i recommend the s&w 15-22 over the 522. the newer 15-22s are flawless and have the mags to match. i would bet my life on it. i took brother in law's 15-22 to the shooting range. it was filthy dirty. i shot two boxes of the wal mart federal bulk(550 pack) with 0 malfunctions and only one round sounded under powered but cycled fine.

the 15-22 is super fun to shoot and easy to load the mags. everyone who owns one will become an expert with it. the 25 round mags are $15 at midway. i want a 15-22 and 20 mags. it will be one of my hd firearms as well as a truck gun. tbh if i had to shoot a threat at 25 to 50 yards i would much rather the 15-22 than a handgun or shotgun. it pattern much better.

if i remember correctly the 15-22s with a "D" in the serial number are the improved ones.

i brought my s&w 22a(.22lr pistol) gator hunting last year. first two gators where around the 7 foot range. i had to shoot them through the scull 5 to 7 times with round nose before they stopped. i then put wal mart federal bulk with hollow points in the mag. it was one shot stops from then on. through the scull, not the soft spot. i do not believe the human scull or rib cage will stop a .22lr.

i would keep a little headlight with the low red light(to see sights) with the gun or maybe night sights.

the 15-22 is the hd firearm i recommended to my grand mother, great aunt, and cousin's wife.

that is all.
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Old February 10, 2012, 12:56 PM   #33
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The main problem i can see with using a .22 semi-auto rifle is unreliability. Trying to clear a stoppage can take a bit of time especially if its dark.
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Old February 10, 2012, 03:02 PM   #34
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Thats interesting. I have a Marlin auto (I assume one would use an auto). When cleaned and using good ammo, I don't have any problems with it. Combined with no recoil and the weapon can empty a ten round magazine on a saucer plate at 15 yards faster than I can pull the trigger.
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Old February 10, 2012, 03:15 PM   #35
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.22 LR is certainly better than nothing. But nothing is a pretty easy standard to beat. If it's all she has or can handle, it's better than relying on the mercy of her attacker but there is a lot of room for improvement.
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Old February 10, 2012, 03:16 PM   #36
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like i said the sig 522 and 15-22 are very reliable. as with any long gun a backup handgun is a good idea. i have no experience with the new ruger lcr 22(8 shot .22lr) but it seems like a good backup gun for her. plus it would be fun to shoot and practice. only down side is the sub 2" barrel, not sure how much penetration the .22lr would get in that case.

im actually thinking of getting this for when i don't want to ccw:
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...%2C+Adj.+Sight

4" barrel, .22lr to plink with, .22mag to ccw with. this naa revolver would be for backup or when i don't want to ccw my glock 19. im also thinking its great for my boat survival box incase i break down i have a .22lr to get a bird or something. i always keep 200+ .22lr rounds in that box.
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Old February 11, 2012, 12:32 AM   #37
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Quote:
this is where the self defense argument snowballs. someone asks about a 22 and people try to upgrade you to a larger gun. if you upgrade from a 22 to a 9mm someone will tell you you should have got a 40cal and then someone will say you need nothing less than a 45. the same goes for rifles. next will come the brand argument, you will say you have x brand and everyone will tell you they wouldn't trust their life with anything less than a y or z brand gun. then comes the cost argument. they will tell you they wouldn't trust their lives to a $200 or $300 or $500 gun and you need to spend $1000 or $2000 or..well you see where this is going.
Except you neglect the law of deminishing returns. There is a very large difference between the 22lr and 9mm out of a carbine. While there is a measurable difference between a 9mm and a .45 cal from a Carbine, the result is more often the same. You cannot say that for a 22lr vs 9mm. As far as the cost vs quality argument, i won't address that. A 9mm hipoint carbine that is reliable works for me.

As far as to the performance of a 22lr from a rifle? See here
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show....php?p=1585939

The result was plenty of penetration (13-15") but fairly pitiful expansion (.028"). Since the both really are desired the 22lr isn't the best first choice. Even 9mm ball starts out bigger than the expanded 22lr and a 9mm HP only gets bigger.

Is a 22lr better than a sharp stick? Absolutely. Would I use it if it was my only firearm -- yup. If I had a choice would I pick a different firearm, yes I would.
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Old February 11, 2012, 12:46 AM   #38
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Just to throw my non expert two cents in here. I once tested some of those 60 grain Aguila Super Snipers or whatever theyre called in wet phonebooks. From my Bearcat, they penetrated about 6 inches of books, yawing after about a half inch and the ensuing path looked like I had stabbed the book with a very thick bladed knife. I'd guess the dimensions of the hole at 5/16ths by an inch or so. From a 10/22, nearly identical "wound", but it went right on out the back of 10+ inches of books. I was quite impressed and I find myself keeping them in my .22s now. Not that there aren't better choices as far as armament goes, but I wouldn't feel unarmed with these.
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Old February 11, 2012, 05:23 PM   #39
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A 10-22 with a 25-rd. mag of Velocitors would be far from useless as an intruder attitude-adjustor......

You may also see he well she handles a .410 shotgun....the buck and slug loads are quite effective for SD.....
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Old February 11, 2012, 06:31 PM   #40
B.N.Real
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Better then nothing and no bad guy will advance on her if she's getting constant hits in his face,neck and upper chest area with it.

About ten years ago,there was a young kid in Texas,I believe ,that repelled and killed two burgulars from his home with a lowly tube fed magazine 22 rifle.

If the kid was unarmed,it would not have gone well for him.

The bad guys were known for being real dirtbags.
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Old February 11, 2012, 10:42 PM   #41
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Quote:
Better then nothing and no bad guy will advance on her if she's getting constant hits in his face,neck and upper chest area with it.
As noted above, "nothing" is an awfully low standard against which to compare something for self defense.

As for getting constant hits in the face, neck, and upper chest area, you know, we just don't seem to see that result occurring with much frequency.

Yeah, people successfully defend their homes and themselves with .22s. They have also managed the same feats with BB guns and unloaded firearms.
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Old February 11, 2012, 10:47 PM   #42
jrothWA
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I look on it as the following...

a 12ga 2-3/4" loaded with #4 Buck (27 pellets) in my mind almost the same as the 18 shot of a Marlin 60.

As other poster indicate: First have a gun.



May I suggest an alternate? Consider the M1 Carbine with soft nose ammo and a lightly polished feed ramp to minimize stuttering. With a butt pouch attach, you can keep three 15 round magazines with it and loaded as desired, all 15 or less.

Good luck and get her to practice any time she can.
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Old February 11, 2012, 11:21 PM   #43
Doug S
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If what I had was a 22, I'd use a 22. My primary concern would be reliability, as 22lr tends to jam every now and then.
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Old February 12, 2012, 12:48 AM   #44
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Quote:
As for getting constant hits in the face, neck, and upper chest area, you know, we just don't seem to see that result occurring with much frequency.
I find everyone's confidence in their marksmanship rather refreshing. We all know that anyone we want to shoot is just going to stand there and let us pump rounds into them. 20 rounds between their eyes? No problem!

Along those lines, even police officers and soldiers who train for a living with firearms do, in fact, miss. However, those of us civilians just can't miss.

Add all that to how every badguy just stops what their doing immediately the moment that first round strikes them, and a 22lr with 30 rounds sounds like a great solution. Hea, it's just like a shotgun, right?

Let's get real here. No one holds still so you can shoot them. Under stress accuracy greatly diminishes, and counting on an attacker to choose to stop attacking is instead of incapicating them is also roll of the dice I want to avoid.

Because of all of this your goal should be to stack the deck in your favor as much as possible. This includes choosing a carbine in a service caliber.
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Old February 12, 2012, 10:50 PM   #45
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does anyone make a .223 home defense round? a round that won't penetrate several walls is what im talking about. low flash. ect.
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Old February 12, 2012, 11:25 PM   #46
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If it comes down to it, my 10/22 will figure in a large way.
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Old February 13, 2012, 12:02 AM   #47
Doc TH
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Agree with DeShivs.
Brassfetcher website gelatin tests w. 10-22 rifle showed penetration of 12.6 in to over 16 inches with CCI Velocitor, Federal hi vel HP, and Aquila 60 gr subsonic.
These all exceed the FBI recommended minimum penetration.
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Old February 13, 2012, 04:48 AM   #48
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Yeah, great penetration, but with teeny-tiny holes. Better than a sharp stick, but a 9mm, 40 or 45 carbine would make bigger holes.

With centerfire reliability.

And it would still be easy to handle. It's not a 22, but even an 8 year old could still handle it easily.

Obviously, if she doesn't want to do it, it doesn't matter. But there's no reason she can't do it.
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Old February 13, 2012, 07:29 AM   #49
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Quote:
Rifles have higher muzzle velocity than pistols-especially .22 rifles.
The velocity gain from a long barrel is not as much as you might think. My chronograph reveals that a long rifle barrel only adds about 100 fps to the velocity achieved by a 7 inch pistol with .22 LR ammo. Once you go over 15 inches or so, the velocity actually goes back down, the powder is burned up and the rest of the barrel only tends to guide the bullet to the target. A TC Contender with a 12 inch barrel might actually have a higher muzzle velocity than a rifle with a 22 inch barrel when shooting .22LR ammo.
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Old February 13, 2012, 09:05 AM   #50
Bill DeShivs
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HV .22 lr achieves maximum velocity in a 13"-16" barrel.
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