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Old February 9, 2012, 09:32 PM   #1
MoBart
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.22lr Carbine for hd

Ok, dont start just yet with how crazy I must be, hear me out. I read a posting here and a reply to it had a couple valid points.

A. The object of a self definse weapon is not to kill, its to incapacitate.

B. A .22lr carries less risk of over penetration

C. The most effective weapon is the one your most roficient with, profincy comes from practice and training, rimfires cost next.to nothing to shoot, and are gentle on less seasond shooters

D. A rimfire makes multiple rapid hits on target easier then any other weapons system Im aware of

E. Rimfires produce minimul muzzle flash and report compared to traditional hd weapons (shotguns and centerfire handguns or carbines)

My gf lives in an apartment with 2 little girls in a pretty populated area. She has no defensive training or experince, and next to no firearms training. Obviously, the best anwser is train train train train, and the train more (hoo rah Marine Corps lol) but realisticly, she enjoys shooting because its a fun way for us to spend an afternoon with some or all of the kids together. She is not a warrior, she can however make rapid center hits with a rimfire, and its fun enough that she does it. So here is the question.

With a light equipped (so she doeant shoot me by mistake) m4 rimfire clone or even a 10\22 be as good a choice as it seems to me? Or did I read that stuff and go goofy as hell lol
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Old February 9, 2012, 09:43 PM   #2
SIGSHR
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We have had several message strings discussing the 22Lr for self defense in a handgun. There is no Ultimate Truth but there are several Smaller Truths.
1st Rule of Gun Fighting per Jeff Cooper-"Have a Gun."
2nd Rule-Only the hits count. A hit with a 22 hurts a lot worse than a miss with a 357 or 45.
3rd Rule-A gun-any gun-beats fists, feet, and foul language.
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Old February 9, 2012, 09:53 PM   #3
jmr40
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Quote:
A .22lr carries less risk of over penetration
You might be surprised at how far a 22 LR will penetrate building material. I've seen one go through five 1" boards.

It wouldn't be my first choice, but I actually think they would work better than many would give them credit for. Having a gun, knowing how to use it and being comfortable with that gun is important. In this case, for now, it may not be a bad choice.

As your GF gets more experience with firearms she may decide to move up to something a little better one day. But having something now, is better than nothing, or something that she finds intimidating.
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Old February 9, 2012, 09:55 PM   #4
dalegribble
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the best gun for the situation is the one you have with you. a solid hit with a 22 is better than a clean miss with a 45 pistol or a 308 rifle. ya pays yur money and yas takes yur chances.
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Old February 9, 2012, 10:16 PM   #5
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoBart
...The object of a self definse weapon is not to kill, its to incapacitate....
Actually, in that regard the object is to stop, or, if you prefer, to incapacitate very quickly. In that regard, consider --

There are four ways in which shooting an assailant actually can stop a fight:
  1. psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."
  2. massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function
  3. breaking major skeletal support structures
  4. damaging the central nervous system.

Depending on someone just giving up because he's been shot is iffy. Probably most fights are stopped that way, but some aren't; and there are no guarantees.

Breaking major skeletal structures can quickly impair mobility, but someone with a gun can still shoot. And it will probably take something bigger than a .22 or .32 to reliably break a large bone.

Hits to the central nervous system are sure and quick, but the CNS presents a small and uncertain target. And sometimes significant penetration will be needed to reach it.

The most common and sure physiological way in which shooting someone stops him is blood loss -- depriving the brain and muscles of oxygen and nutrients, thus impairing the ability of the brain and muscles to function. Blood loss is facilitated by (1) large holes causing tissue damage; (2) getting the holes in the right places to damage major blood vessels or blood bearing organs; and (3) adequate penetration to get those holes into the blood vessels and organs which are fairly deep in the body. The problem is that blood loss takes time. People have continued to fight effectively when gravely, even mortally, wounded. So things that can speed up blood loss, more holes, bigger holes, better placed holes, etc., help.

So as a rule of thumb --
  • More holes are better than fewer holes.
  • Larger holes are better than smaller holes.
  • Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
  • Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
  • There are no magic bullets.

The bottom line is that a lower power cartridge with a smaller caliber bullet will make smaller holes and may not be able to as reliably penetrate to where those holes need to be to be most effective. On the other hand, a small gun that you have trained with and can manage well will serve better than the larger, more powerful gun that is so powerful you can't shoot it accurately.

And another possible option for home defense might be something like a 20 gauge shotgun with, say, number 4 buckshot.
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Old February 9, 2012, 10:32 PM   #6
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I think if she is comfortable with it and will use it then its a great option. A mag dump of .22LR on target from a 16" barrel of a S&W M&P22 would be darn effective. Especially at HD distances that rarely exceed 20 yards.
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Old February 9, 2012, 10:36 PM   #7
MoBart
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All very valid and serious points, thank you all.

On the bird shot point, Ive argued for a long time that at normal hd ranges light bird shot will not spread to a pattern much larger then say a large mans closed fist. If you slam (how many pellets?) of that shot charge into the chest cavity (or allowing for crappy conditions, adrenaline and basic normal holly crap Im afraid bad shot placement) I think those many many many small holes in a tightly concentraded area might and probuably would be profoundly devistating to soft tissues. And the mass impact would be devistating to a sternum or ribcage, and even if it didnt break the pelvic saddle woukd cause massive tissue damage, the pelletz that didnt break and.penetrate none woukd carry enough energy to deflect into surrounding soft tissue and cause that rapid blood loss.
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Old February 9, 2012, 11:18 PM   #8
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A litte off the subject but, I sent her a link to this thread via text, she said "wow, thats just like facebook" anyone else have good reasons that this site IS NOTHING LIKE that horrible ruination of mankind website? Lol
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Old February 9, 2012, 11:32 PM   #9
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As has been noted, you want both penetration and expansion out of your self defense choice. A 22lr, even from a carbine, doesn't get you both. If she enjoys a 22lr carbine it shouldn't be much of a jump to get to a 9mm, 5.56, or 30 carbine platform. Yes, rule one of a gunfight is to bring a gun, but there is no good reason to not stack the deck in your favor as much as possible.
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Old February 9, 2012, 11:49 PM   #10
Discern
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You have already stated this, but she needs to get proper training. Also make sure the kids are trained in how firearms can be dangerous - they are not toys.

One concern that has not been mentioned is a .22LR is more prone to misfires. Rimfire is not as reliable and centerfire. That said, I would prefer a .22LR to a .25ACP.

Another concern is a .22LR semiauto may experience feeding issues.
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Old February 9, 2012, 11:58 PM   #11
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I don't believe your concept is "crazy", for reasons other posters have already elaborated. However, you should consider some additional factors. Ammo reliability: CF ammo is more reliable than 22LR except perhaps for some of the more expensive 22 ammo designed for competitive shooters.
Action: a good pump action 22 will likely be, in the long run, slightly less susceptible to malfunction than most semiauto rimfires.
Caliber differences: One poster above is correct when he/she noted that in a carbine 9mm has not much more recoil than 22. If I were offered both, I'd still take the 9mm. .30 carbine has minimal recoil, but is very penetrative in FMJ and probably also in soft point; remember the MV is 1800-1900 fps.
Birdshot: While it is true that at very close ranges a charge of shot does not spread very much, it is also true that each small pellet has very little energy and limited penetration. These tend to produce ghastly, but shallow wounds that may not have much effect on deeper organs or blood vessels. Remember, it was designed for birds.
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Old February 10, 2012, 12:38 AM   #12
Bill DeShivs
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A .22 lr carbine has much more engergy than a .22 lr handgun. Several quick .22 shots from a carbine would stop most any aggressor-experts notwithsanding.
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Old February 10, 2012, 02:21 AM   #13
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Your reasons are valid. If she's comfortable it'd be great for her. I wouldn't want to be shot with a 22.
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Old February 10, 2012, 04:55 AM   #14
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With good ammo and a ruger 25 round mag, I would trust my 10/22 for home defense. I don't have to use it for that because I have a shotgun. I would keep it clean and keep it loaded with quality rimfire ammo like CCI.
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Old February 10, 2012, 05:07 AM   #15
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A rimfire carbine isn't a bad choice for someone with little training, skill, or experience, or for someone who requires low recoil. There's a lot to be said for reliable hits.

It's not optimal, but it sure is better than a baseball bat.

Half or a whole magazine applied to center of mass should be reasonably effective.
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Old February 10, 2012, 05:34 AM   #16
Aaron1100us
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If all I had was my 10/22, I'd use it for HD, yep. 50 round drum should hold off the BG's for a few minutes


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Old February 10, 2012, 07:41 AM   #17
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I think if she is comfortable with it and will use it then its a great option. A mag dump of .22LR on target from a 16" barrel of a S&W M&P22 would be darn effective. Especially at HD distances that rarely exceed 20 yards.
Agreed. Something with a nice 30 round clip could be quite effective.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but Keltec just came out with a .22WMR pistol with a 30 round clip, one use of which is for SD. Although .22LR is not a WMR, would not a higher velocity .22LR fired from a longer (aka rifle) barrel have a similar velocity to a .22WMR fired from a 5 in pistol barrel?

Plus, and I hate to be gruesome, but, with a 30 round clip, if the BG doesn't go down, she could reliably keep shooting until he does. After all shoot enough and its equivalent to a shotgun blast.

I say all this, as after seeing both the Wife and daughter blast away with happy glee rapid firing a .22LR rifle i've thought about that use as well.

Maybe I am completely off.
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Old February 10, 2012, 08:34 AM   #18
Skans
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Why I believe .22 Carbine makes a poor HD weapon:

1. not enough stopping power; poor expansion properties of bullet
2. rim-fire .22 is more prone to jamming in semi-autos.
3. rifle/carbine is cumbersome for home defense
4. Capacity is usually less than the average 9mm or .40 handgun.
5. .22 will over penetrate, especially in drywall - but so will most anything, except .25 ACP.
6. Just because someone is skilled at shooting a .22 carbine outside in lighted conditions doesn't mean those same skills and confidence transfer to a Home Defense situation.
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Old February 10, 2012, 09:02 AM   #19
Double Naught Spy
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1st Rule of Gun Fighting per Jeff Cooper-"Have a Gun."
2nd Rule-Only the hits count. A hit with a 22 hurts a lot worse than a miss with a 357 or 45.
I see these repeated time and time again and they just aren't really true. Cooper's rule only pertains from the sense that it isn't a gunfight if both parties don't have guns. If only one does, then it is just a shooting. However, infinitely more important is not getting shot.

As for the second rule, strangely it isn't true either. As has been shown time and time again, misses turn out to count in many fights much in the same way that hits don't always seem to matter one iota. Here recently, this mom stopped 2 home invaders with just one shot and secured her own safety and that of her child. The shot was from a .22 and missed. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478480

Quote:
Why I believe .22 Carbine makes a poor HD weapon:

3. rifle/carbine is cumbersome for home defense
5. .22 will over penetrate, especially in drywall - but so will most anything, except .25 ACP.
6. Just because someone is skilled at shooting a .22 carbine outside in lighted conditions doesn't mean those same skills and confidence transfer to a Home Defense situation.
skans, 3 of your 6 reasons against .22 lr are reasons that disqualify every other caliber in similar circumstance. If a .22 rifle/carbine is too cumbersome for HD, then larger caliber rifle/carbines and shotguns would be poor choices as well, but yet we see them being used sucessfully over and over. Virtually any round that does not hit the bad guy may overpenetrate something. And, just because you are skilled at shooting any gun outside in lighted conditions doesn't mean those same skills and confidence transfer to a HD situation.
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Old February 10, 2012, 09:07 AM   #20
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22LR - rimfire - for SD/HD? Definitely not my first choice in an autoloader. In a revolver with at least a 6" barrel - yes, I would. Again, not my first choice for all the reasons listed in previous messages.
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Old February 10, 2012, 10:06 AM   #21
dalegribble
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"If she enjoys a 22lr carbine it shouldn't be much of a jump to get to a 9mm, 5.56, or 30 carbine platform"

this is where the self defense argument snowballs. someone asks about a 22 and people try to upgrade you to a larger gun. if you upgrade from a 22 to a 9mm someone will tell you you should have got a 40cal and then someone will say you need nothing less than a 45. the same goes for rifles. next will come the brand argument, you will say you have x brand and everyone will tell you they wouldn't trust their life with anything less than a y or z brand gun. then comes the cost argument. they will tell you they wouldn't trust their lives to a $200 or $300 or $500 gun and you need to spend $1000 or $2000 or..well you see where this is going.

whatever you choose someone will be a critic. as i said earlier a solid hit with a 22 is better than a clean miss with some super duper gun and cartridge. stick with a respected reasonably priced brand gun of your choice. buy a respected premium brand of ammo and then practice. one great advantage of a 22 is the low cost of ammo compared to any centerfire. typicaly 22 ammo is aprox 1/5th to 1/10th the cost of larger calibers. the lower cost allows more practice, more practice means more accuracy and more confidence.

is a 22 the best caliber for self defense? for some people the answer is yes. there are more powerful calibers available but if the person can't handle the noise or the recoil or the cost then they wouldn't be the best choice for that person. some people who start with a 22 want to move up to a larger caliber at some time. many people that start with too powerful a gun get turned off immediatly and will never touch another gun. then the self defense value of any gun is zero.
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Old February 10, 2012, 10:23 AM   #22
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Good points Dalegribble. I can understand the opposing opinions and respect the, but the view that this is something she is comfortable with carries the day for me.
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Old February 10, 2012, 10:44 AM   #23
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Quote:
A .22 lr carbine has much more energy than a .22 lr handgun.
Thank you, Mr. DeShivs, for making a valid point that many people seem to want to ignore: we aren't talking about .22LR handguns. Longer barrel, more acceleration, better performance can be reasonably expected.

As for reliability: My experience may be better than some, but my .22LR plinker is highly reliable, and ammo issues have been fewer than 1 per 1000 rounds in the last couple of years.

If a .22 carbine is her choice, I would rather she have that than nothing, but I would still encourage training so that she handles and uses it safely and thoughtfully.
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Old February 10, 2012, 11:04 AM   #24
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skans, 3 of your 6 reasons against .22 lr are reasons that disqualify every other caliber in similar circumstance.
Carbines are cumbersome - I don't like them for home defense. What the heck do I need a carbine for at distances of less than 20 feet? This is just a personal opinion.

If a .22LR will over penetrate drywall, then why use .22LR? Step it up to something that has a little more punch.....or find a round that won't over penetrate if that's your primary concern.

My last comment was just basically saying that outdoor target/varmint shooting is quite different then indoor HD shooting - just because someone is comfortable with a gun in a particular setting doesn't mean its a good choice in a different setting. To me, using a 22 carbine/rifle for HD is a poor choice. But, if that's all you have and for whatever reason you don't want to or can't buy a .45, .40, or 9mm hand gun, then the OP will have to make due with it, that's all.
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Old February 10, 2012, 11:22 AM   #25
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A 22 for HD is asking for trouble. Shooting a goblin in low light while they are charging you is not the same as a lazy Saturday at the park.

There are no easy answers, either you are prepared, or you are not.

Bird shot is for birds.

Get a youth 870 20 gauge and load it with 00 buck. Put a lite on it and teach her to shoot at 10 yards from the hip.
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