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Old February 9, 2012, 08:14 PM   #76
Sparks1957
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It depends on how valuable your life is to you.
Oh, for goodness' sake... not another "if you really value your life, you wouldn't carry that gun" comment.
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Old February 9, 2012, 10:08 PM   #77
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I have seen videos of the Inuit indians using a 22 LR on polar bears and getting the bear. They do use them there, check up on it.
I saw a documentary (Gordon Eastman, I think) of Native Alaskans coming up behind a swimming Brown Bear, in a canoe and carefully placing the shot behind or IN the ear with a .22 rifle from a distance of 2 or 3 ft. That's not bear defense.

Didn't see the video you refer to, but I suspect they shot the bear while it was swimming and helpless, since it isn't likely that the Intuits have survived so long by being suicidal or stupid.

Whatever the circumstances (that you havn't elected to tell us about), the conditions were obviously ideal and represented minimal danger to the hunters, who, if on land, were most likely backed up by a real rifle.

Saw an Alaska State Trooper episode where an inhabitant of a northern village was on "Polar Bear" guard duty armed with a Mini-14.

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Old February 10, 2012, 05:47 PM   #78
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Didn't see the video you refer to, but I suspect they shot the bear while it was swimming and helpless
They were on land, were behind the bear and shot it in the rear, it bled out in its den and they dragged it out and skinned it. Was a home made film my Pastor showed us of the time he was in Alaska doing Salvation Army stuff. He was there for many years with these hunters.

Does this clear it up? They used their heads and know how to kill it safely as they do everything they kill like whales from canoes etc.

First defense is your smarts, dont have any? well you wont be able to defend anything with out them, smarts that is.
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Old February 10, 2012, 06:25 PM   #79
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They were on land, were behind the bear and shot it in the rear, it bled out in its den and they dragged it out and skinned it. Was a home made film my Pastor showed us of the time he was in Alaska doing Salvation Army stuff. He was there for many years with these hunters.

Does this clear it up? They used their heads and know how to kill it safely as they do everything they kill like whales from canoes etc.
None of these hunting tactics have anything to do with self defense. There is nothing safe about shooting a polar bear in the butt with a .22. Hunting whales from canoes definitely is not safe and the Inuit will tell you so.
http://www.alaska.boemre.gov/native/rexford/rexford.htm

If you delve seriously into the topic, you will find that the cash strapped Alaskan natives often make do as best they can, not because they think the .22 rifle is the ultimate in hunting, but because it is what they can afford.

You have seemed to really confuse the diffferences between self defense and hunting and the two are not readily compared.

I do find it ironic that you posted contradictory statements.

Quote:
After my cousin was shot 4 times with a 357 I must say shot placement is king. Dont matter what you shoot him with unless its a 20mm or larger, that if you dont hit the important parts he will not just lay down and die.

Same goes with hunting..... why wouldnt it go with SD?
If you don't hit the important part in self defense, the bad guy isn't just going to lay down and die, but if you shoot a polar bear in the butt, apparently it will after crawling back to its den, but hunting and self defense are the same?

That is some bizarre counter logic.
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Old February 10, 2012, 06:48 PM   #80
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None of these hunting tactics have anything to do with self defense. There is nothing safe about shooting a polar bear in the butt with a .22. Hunting whales from canoes definitely is not safe and the Inuit will tell you so.
The above is the only point I'm trying to make. Not argue about shooting a defenseless bear under circumstances that have nothing to do with stopping a large carnivore in the process of eating you for breakfast, or protecting it's young.
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Old February 10, 2012, 07:36 PM   #81
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And we've had quite enough discussion of Inuit hunting practices. Back on topic please before posts start disappearing.
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Old February 10, 2012, 10:20 PM   #82
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My comment on a .22lr being carried by guides in Alaska was a smart alack comment. having spent a lot of time in AK with bear we all carry BIG handguns for a reason. I carry a .454 with very stout loads. The bigger the hole the faster they go down.
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Old February 11, 2012, 06:21 AM   #83
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.380 in the hand is worth two .45's in the safe.

Beyond that, shot placement being the same (I can shoot a .380 no better than a .45), the increased diameter, sectional density and energy of the .45 have got to increase your odds. Sure someone will argue that they've got this magic load for the .380 that has the energy of the .45 while expanding to the size of a dinner plate after penetrating ten inches but hey, you can get magic bullets for the .45 as well.

Once you get to the realm of 9mm, 40, 44, 357, 45 you getting more to an argument of velocity vs mass, capacity, reliable expansion etc. At this point you pays your money and takes your choice.
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Old February 11, 2012, 12:36 PM   #84
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The most important weapon in the self-defense arsenal is your brain. Educate yourself on tactics, don't underestimate the intelligence of your attacker, practice, practice, practice and whatever caliber you happen to be carrying, know its advantages and weaknesses based on YOUR real world testing (and did I say) practice. You can be carrying a 454 Casull but if you're unpracticed at using it and your attacker can plink your eye socket at 7 yds with a .22 short, you've been outgunned.
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Old February 11, 2012, 05:02 PM   #85
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Matthew261 has a valid point....caliber isn't as important as having the appropriate tactics.....you don't use the same tactics with a .25ACP (close-range, crainio-ocular target) as you use for a .45ACP (COM, distance allowed).....it's just as important to adapt your tactics to your gun as it is to adapt your gun to your tactics.....
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Old February 13, 2012, 05:38 PM   #86
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I will say, in any sd situation, you must use your head and outsmart the assailant. Same as in hunting, you must use your head. That is and will be my point in any discussion on SD. To aimlessly point and shoot will not do the job.

Your mind is the best weapon you have.
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Old February 16, 2012, 08:46 PM   #87
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If all you have while hunting is a .22 LR, yep, tactics are king. If you are planning to hunt white tail deer are you going to choose .22 lr ?

So, yes, tactics, training, outsmart, whatever, all good. But, at the end of it all.....

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The bigger the better as long as its not so hot that you 1) can't afford to train with it or 2) your more afraid to pull the trigger on it than get attacked by the assailant.

If you can be no less stupid with a .45 then with a .22, I'd say a .45 is better. If for some reason you can shoot a .22 and turn into an idiot as soon as a .45 is placed into your hand...by all means, stick with the .22 lr.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; February 16, 2012 at 09:46 PM. Reason: To remove inappropriate language
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Old March 8, 2012, 02:33 PM   #88
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Calibers for CCW is a tough call (and this is from an LEO point of view) as
the weapon usually has to be fairly compact so as to not be detected to the untrained eye. In small to medium size towns with low crime rates, I would say that the normal, compact snubbies and small caliber semi-autos are adequate for CCW. However, that being said, if you live in a large city with a high violent crime rate and your profession requires you to spend a lot of time in a high-risk area where many of the robberies and assaults are with a firearm, then you really should consider concealing a full size weapon of at least .40 caliber. The problem with .32, .38, .380/9mm weapons is not that they don't work, they do, but if you are being assaulted by someone with a firearm and you instinctively double tap them to "center mass" as you have been trained with these small caliber weapons, you are probably going to be shot as well before your attacker collapses. With a more potent caliber with a full-length barrel, the odds are significantly higher of delivering enough shock on a "double tap" to center mass to prevent accurate return fire.
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Old March 8, 2012, 02:43 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by lincoln5
. . . . In small to medium size towns with low crime rates, I would say that the normal, compact snubbies and small caliber semi-autos are adequate for CCW. However, that being said, if you live in a large city with a high violent crime rate and your profession requires you to spend a lot of time in a high-risk area where many of the robberies and assaults are with a firearm, then you really should consider concealing a full size weapon of at least .40 caliber. The problem with .32, .38, .380/9mm weapons is not that they don't work, they do, but if you are being assaulted by someone with a firearm and you instinctively double tap them to "center mass" as you have been trained with these small caliber weapons, you are probably going to be shot as well before your attacker collapses
I can see the area of my domicile making a difference in how often I carry, but I don't see the connection between "small town/big town" and "caliber choice." Bad guys aren't actually any larger in the big city. A weapon & caliber sufficient for Bubba Backwoods ought to work on Donny Downtown. Or did I miss something here?
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Old March 8, 2012, 08:12 PM   #90
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LOL at "Bubba Backwoods" and "Donny Downtown"
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Old March 8, 2012, 08:36 PM   #91
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There is nothing safe about shooting a polar bear in the butt with a .22.

Words to live by.


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Old March 8, 2012, 08:42 PM   #92
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Amen brother.
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Old March 8, 2012, 08:55 PM   #93
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It's all relative

In 2007 Kenneth Shipp, after being involved in a traffic incident, drew and fired a .22 magnum North American Arms SA revolver into the face of Officer Eric Freeman. Sadly, Officer Freeman died of the wound shortly thereafter. Conversely, Officer Massad Ayoob (and famed ballistics and defensive shooting expert) fired five .38 special rounds point blank into the face of a perp...and he lived.

Does caliber matter? In most instances, 'yes', in others, not so much. Ultimately I believe that caliber matters. I carry a .357 magnum most (99% of the time), a .45 ACP .5% of the time and a .22 magnum the other .5% of the time (don't ask, just know that's what's required). I believe that a .357 magnum is the most effective round for stopping a human attack...therefore I carry it most often. On the very rare occasion that I think I'll need more firepower, I carry my full size HK45. On the occasions that I absolutely cannot carry anything more, I carry my mouse gun (which I load with 45 gr. Critical Defense loads from Hornady and would not hesitate in sticking in in the eye of an aggresor).

Caliber is important, but shot placement is paramount. Carry, practice and use that with which you are most comfortable and contribute to the NRA.
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Old March 8, 2012, 09:22 PM   #94
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Look, somebody will always have a success story with your pet caliber, even a bb gin, blow gun or 22lr.

It can also be argued that 5.7, 380, 9mm and other small calibers are good SD calibers, multiple test results and actual shootings show calibers larger in size which normally expand and still penetrate 14" are the best for self defense. When plugged with clothing, I would still rather be making 45 holes vs 22 holes. 14" gets you through even with a light barrier. Hunters know exit wounds bleed out, so you have to get through. In addition, the spine is in a human's back, covered with bone.

So 40+ sized calibers which can be shot fast are best for sd.

If completely impractical, I like things which will penetrate and shoot fast for caliber like 357 mag or 38+P. These should keep the 14" penetration and be more likely to expand due to high velocity for caliber.

Last, if you need to hide it in a speedo, lesser calibers in fmj should at least penetrate to the spine and give an exit wound like 32 ACP or 380.

This is why I struggle with 9mm. Then bullets need to expand to stop, but they often penetrate less when they do. The gun is usually as big as a 40. The only good thing is 9 is easy to shoot fast and the ammo is much cheaper.

The 22 has cheap ammo and is ideal if attacked by prairie dogs or other rodents and snake. A good utility gun and the ammo is light. Hiking, I would be tempted to carry a 45 for sd and a 22 with lots of ammo for fun, snakes, survival, etc.
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Old March 8, 2012, 10:24 PM   #95
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I think some of you are somehow missing the point of my post.
The point is, if you don't live in a big city, high-crime, "Little Beirut" type of
area, do you really want to carry a 40 oz. weapon concealed everyday? My first suggestion of course, would be to move. In small town USA where there is little crime and what rare problems you do encounter are not likely to possess a firearm, then the typical .38 snubbie, small semi-auto CCW weapon that is easy to carry and conceal daily is certainly adequate.

Last edited by lincoln5; March 8, 2012 at 10:32 PM.
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Old March 8, 2012, 10:35 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by lincoln5
I think some of you are somehow missing the point of my post.
The point is, if you don't live in a big city, high-crime, "Little Beirut" type of
area, do you really want to carry a 40 oz. weapon concealed everyday? My first suggestion of course, would be to move. In small town USA where there is little crime and what problems you encounter are not likely to possess a
firearm, then the typical .38 snubbie, small semi-auto CCW weapon that is easy to carry daily is adequate.
If that's really your point, I think your reasoning is specious.

Yes, a private citizen, especially if he can avoid "high crime" areas, is very unlikely to need his gun. But the likelihood that he might need his gun is independent of the nature of the threat he might need his gun to defend against.

So while he might never need his gun, it's still possible that if he does he will need to deal with a strong, determined adversary who is under the influence of drugs and who will be difficult to stop.
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Old March 9, 2012, 05:18 AM   #97
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I've learned over the years that shot placement and multiple hits on target are more important than caliber or millimeter size. You hit a guy square in the head a couple of times with a .22 long rifle and you're probably going the win the day. If you do 2 to the chest and 1 or 2 to the head, that will probably make you a winner too. I do, however, personally prefer using the larger and heavier bullets when I can, but if I can't, I do multiple shots and go for good shot placement.
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Old March 9, 2012, 09:09 AM   #98
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LOL on the Bubba Backwoods, Donny Downtown, etc...
I think the point there is where "bubba" lives there is maybe 2 homocides per year. We have a nearby city of 40,000 that had 0, read zero homocides for 2011.
Where "donny" lives there are up to 10 homocides per day.
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Old March 9, 2012, 09:30 AM   #99
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Officer Reston took a .45 to the chin from assailant Joel Abner and the shot caused Reston to go down, the assailant fired a few more rounds at his chest and thinking the officer dead began walking away, Reston sat up, drew his sidearm and the two exchanged fire. Reston's protective vest stopped the rounds fired at his chest. Reston was struck two more times - one in the arm and once in the hip / buttocks. The conflict ended when Reston grappled Abner and fired 2 point blank shots into his head.

So anyway, there is an example of someone getting shot with a .45, in the chin, and he continues to fight and eventually prevails.

Things may have been very different if Abner had been using hollow point ammo... the FMJ bullet that stuck Reston punched a very neat hole in his chin, traveled down his neck and exited out the back of his neck. It broke his jaw but that's about it, meaning the path of the bullet was a fairly clean path.
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Old March 9, 2012, 12:02 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln5
LOL on the Bubba Backwoods, Donny Downtown, etc...
I think the point there is where "bubba" lives there is maybe 2 homocides per year. We have a nearby city of 40,000 that had 0, read zero homocides for 2011.
Where "donny" lives there are up to 10 homocides per day.
Oh, I get the point, but I have some reservations about the reasoning. Of course, leave it to fiddletown to reduce to one sentence, that which takes me all day to articulate:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown
. . . . the likelihood that [a private citizen] might need his gun is independent of the nature of the threat he might need his gun to defend against.
The odds of having to shoot go up in a high crime area. The ballistics don't change, though.
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