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Old February 8, 2012, 07:08 PM   #51
moxie
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It's a free country and you get to exercise your rights.

I would only add that, if you have a security clearance, or would like to get one, an arrest record, even if favorably adjudicated, can bring it all to an unpleasant end, or take so much time to adjudicate that you wish it would end.

Jeff22 makes a lot of good points.
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Old February 8, 2012, 07:18 PM   #52
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awesome common-sense suggestions, Jeff22
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Old February 8, 2012, 07:31 PM   #53
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- Do not expose yourself
Now that is sound advice right there.
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Old February 8, 2012, 07:54 PM   #54
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Does anyone have any documented cases of a person shooting in self defense and going with the "right to remain silent" approach? I always see it talked about; but I have yet to see it actually put in to practice and what eventually happens to the shooter.

I've heard about a few cases of people's cooperation working against them; but how does that compare to the total number of SD shootings where people cooperate? Do all of these SD shootings "gone wrong" make national media? I've read plenty of defense stories in "American Rifleman" that turn out well for the victims. How many of them talked to the police?
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Old February 8, 2012, 08:33 PM   #55
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His job is not to help you.
I guess keeping the peace and enforcing the law is not designed to help you. How is that murderers, robbers, and rapists end up in a jail cell? I can tell you first hand that the fairy godmother doesn't put them there. Trained men and women do. They do it by seeking the truth in the encounters they engage in. In order to get the truth, they rely on the statements of citizens so that those statements can be compared to the available evidence. There is a reason that we get to walk around in relative peace, in most places in this nation. It is not because of the good will of all mankind. I agree that you should think about your circumstances and be careful about what you say to police because not all police officers have the best of intentions. Weigh your options and use your rights based on your culpability and conscience. However, there is nothing wrong with looking the man in the eye and telling him the absolute truth, particularly when you have done nothing unreasonable by anyone's interpretation. The police are not the enemy as many lawyers would have you believe.
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Old February 8, 2012, 08:37 PM   #56
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However, there is nothing wrong with looking the man in the eye and telling him the absolute truth, particularly when you have done nothing unreasonable by anyone's interpretation.
How many citations do you want me to post of people who have done exactly that and either gone to prison or had their lives made a a living hell for doing nothing illegal? Just name a number (keeping in mind bandwidth limitations).
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Old February 8, 2012, 08:52 PM   #57
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I have a lot of friends, and family members that are either LEO, or retired LEO. All will say the same things.

1 Be courteous. Do not argue, and awnser the simple questions. If you are being pulled over because you were speeding, do not show how much of an idiot you actualy are with comments like, "I refuse to awnser questions." "I will need to consult with my attorney." Statememnts like this say to an officer "I think I am smarter than you, and I am going to act like a jerk. I am going to try to cause the biggest scene, and start screaming lawsuit. "

2. Regardless of if you think they can or not. An LEO can frisk you. Refuse this and you are truly at thier mercy. You will be going to jail. If you fight them kiss your right to own guns good bye. You commited a felony. If taken before a jury you will be found guilty.

3. If they ask if they can search your vehicle. It is better to consent if you have nothing to hide, and nothing illegal in your vehicle. If you refuse to they can handcuff you, put you in the back of thier car, and wait for a magistrate to come, and sign a warrant to search if they believe there to be probable cause. Even if they do not find anything you are still cuffed in the back of a squad car. They can do it, and will not be able to do a thing about it.

4 Common sense prevents a lot of problems.
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Old February 8, 2012, 08:53 PM   #58
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Yes, I would be interested to know about completely innocent persons who spoke to a police officer and went to prison soley for the reason that they spoke the absolute truth, without regard to any other circumstance in the case such as the actual facts of the investigation (including misidentifications, lying witnesses, corrupt police officers and prosecutors, faulty evidence, etc.) I can be persuaded.
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Old February 8, 2012, 08:58 PM   #59
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Simple questions, simple answers:

- Do you know why I pulled you over?

Answer: "No."

Reasoning: Because you do not, as you are not a mind reader. Even if you were going 110 mph he might have pulled you over for a tail light. Tell him you were going 110 and he will write you a ticket.

- Where are you going today?

Answer: Could be a lot of places. Be consistent however with a single answer 1-3 word answer. He may ask you again or make reference to it later.

You get the idea.
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Old February 8, 2012, 09:02 PM   #60
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Let me make a clarification as I see my words were not quoted in context. It is not the officer's job to help you with your case or your defense. They may help you in other ways, but they will not help you with your case or defense. The prosecutor or the judge will also not help you either.

Officers will most certainly get fired if they tell a lie. There are rare cases where officers do tell lies, but those who do are soon exposed, charged and fired. So if an officer is approaching you then they did see or hear something or maybe something was reported to them. When they approach you, they will be doing so as an official representative of the people and the state. It will be all business and they will not help you in the defense. They will not tell you what is optional or what is mandatory. For example, they wont tell you that you dont have to answer their questions. They may politely say "Can I do a check of your vehicle?" What they wont say is "Will you waive your rights and let me search your vehicle?"

If the red lights are on behind you or you find yourself in front of an officer with lots of questions, then you will find out sooner or later they might be building probable cause to give you at least a citation or at worse a felony arrest.

So you have to remember when an officer approaches, they mean business and they do so as a representative of the people/state. You have to treat this encounter in a business manner and handle it as professionally as they are handling it. The professional manner of handling such things is to let your attorney do the talking. The trouble with attorneys, however, is that they keep regular hours which means things may have to wait until the morning or the weekday while you sit in a cell. If you have to sit in a cell or if the officer can't finish their report for a few days, then so be it. The person or persons who will make the final determination is the judge or jury. They are the people that really count in these situations. One wrong statement or action can mean the difference between freedom and several years in prison.
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Old February 8, 2012, 09:11 PM   #61
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Officers will most certainly get fired if they tell a lie. There are rare cases where officers do tell lies, but those who do are soon exposed, charged and fired.
Some are. Some are not. Don't be naive, there are bad people everywhere (or good people who do bad things?). Some don't get caught for years and some get busted the first time they do something stupid. Blanket statements are not a good idea when dealing with human nature.
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Old February 8, 2012, 09:18 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by m&p45acp10+1
3. If they ask if they can search your vehicle. It is better to consent if you have nothing to hide, and nothing illegal in your vehicle. If you refuse to they can handcuff you, put you in the back of thier car, and wait for a magistrate to come, and sign a warrant to search if they believe there to be probable cause. Even if they do not find anything you are still cuffed in the back of a squad car. They can do it, and will not be able to do a thing about it.
Thats terrible legal advice.

What to do when you get pulled over FLEX YOUR RIGHTS

Police have no right to search locked compartments with out a warrant, unless you give them permission.

You can give up your constitutional rights and submit to an illegal search if you want to, but I never will.
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Old February 8, 2012, 09:25 PM   #63
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I'd rather have them get a warrant and document it better like when the police planted drugs in that car last month in Utica while on video tape. Makes it tougher when on video tape.
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Old February 8, 2012, 09:43 PM   #64
m&p45acp10+1
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Oh I never said they could search without your premission, or obtaining a warrant. I said if you have nothing to hide it will go much smoother to give consent. Yes they must either have consent, a warrant, or viable probable casue.

Well if you do not consent, the officer is well within thier rights to detain you while he is getting a warrant. That can include impounding your vehicle. You will pay the towing fee, and impoundment fee as well. All while handcuffed in the back seat of a squad car.

Becsue you decided "I have the right to make him get a warrant." It is now gonna cost more than an hour in handcuffs, and possibly an impoundment fee.

Failure to consent screams out one of two things.

1. I have something illegal in there.
2. I want to make your job difficult. (Yes you have the right to make them get a warrant. I have the right to walk in public resteraunt and loudly pass gas while walking past the table you are eating at. It does not mean it is a good idea to do so.)
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Old February 8, 2012, 09:54 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by m&p45acp10+1
Well if you do not the officer is within thier rights to detain you while he is getting a warrant. That can include impounding your vehicle. You will pay the towing fee, and impoundment fee as well. All while handcuffed in the back seat of a squad car.

Failure to consent screams out one of two things.

1. I have something illegal in there.
2. I want to make your job difficult. (Yes you have the right to make them get a warrant. I have the right to walk in public resteraunt and loudly pass gas while walking past the table you are eating at. It does not mean it is a good idea to do so.)
Police have no right to detain you because you refuse to consent to a search.

They have no right to search based on 'hunches'.

Refusing to consent to a search CAN NOT be used against you.

Refusing a search request is not an admission of guilt and does not give the officer the legal right to search or detain you. In fact, most avoidable police searches don't occur because police have probable cause. They occur because people get tricked or intimidated into consenting to search requests.
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Old February 8, 2012, 10:01 PM   #66
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Yes you have the right to make them get a warrant. I have the right to walk in public resteraunt and loudly pass gas while walking past the table you are eating at. It does not mean it is a good idea to do so.
Interesting example that you note whereby exercising of constitutional rights is found to be equivalent to insulting a police officer. That is definitely noteworthy.

Not a good example either. The owner can throw me out for insulting his guests. He would be within his rights to do so. The police do not own the streets.
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Old February 8, 2012, 10:27 PM   #67
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"The trouble with attorneys, however, is that they keep regular hours which means things may have to wait until the morning or the weekday while you sit in a cell."


This is why I traded my local criminal defense attorney $10K for his 24/7 cell number (trust me, they all have one). It's called a retainer... it's refundable upon my request, and guarantees that I already am represented should I require it. I consider it a savings account, with the "Interest" paid back to me in peace of mind. I carry as a licensed CCW holder, and I will absolutely use force to defend myself if required. I can also guarantee that after I shoot I'll make two calls: One to my attorney, and one to 911. I'll leave you to guess which one I'll call first.

I would definately tell a responding officer the following:

(1): I was attacked by the person I used force against.

(2): I defended myself (it's damned obvious anyhow)

(3): I am a licenced CCW holder, and my weapon is located "xx" (I guarantee I would not be holding it...)

(4): I'll be happy assist in the investigation, but prudence dictates that I am represented by an attorney before I make any other statement. "You know how lawsuit happy the families of these criminals can be, and I'd just prefer to make sure that I have someone representing me before I say anythng else"

And then shut up.

Sort of sets the tone, and is a way to smooth out the lawyering-up part of the day.




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Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 8, 2012 at 10:33 PM.
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Old February 8, 2012, 10:38 PM   #68
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Whoever stated this...
Quote:
I have the right to walk in public restaurant and loudly pass gas while walking past the table you are eating at.
I wouldn't be so sure of that lol. Take a look...http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=478_1312733100
Uh oh then Who did that? then Relief. You smelled it, you dealt it...
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Old February 9, 2012, 09:08 AM   #69
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Quote:
Posted by CaptainObvious: If you just shot someone, pulled a firearm on someone or committed any kind of battery or assault or any other crime where you might spend one day in jail for, then your best bet is not to say anything at all. Stand there quietly, peacefully, and tell the officer "I wish to remain silent".
That's good advice--unless you intend to claim self defense.

A successful defense of self defense will require evidence, and that evidence may disappear at the scene never to be found again unless the officer is aware of it. Remaining silent can greatly increase that possibility. Pointing out witnesses and evidence before they disappear can mitigate that risk.

Quote:
Do not launch into explanations of what happened. Get yourself an attorney immediately or work with the public defender, but do not make any statements or answer questions.
That is excellent advice.
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Old February 9, 2012, 09:13 AM   #70
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Quote:
Let me make a clarification as I see my words were not quoted in context. It is not the officer's job to help you with your case or your defense. They may help you in other ways, but they will not help you with your case or defense. The prosecutor or the judge will also not help you either.
This statement is not true. Although it is not an officer's job to help a person defend against an accusation of some criminal act, there are times an officer can and will provide beneficial testimony or information if the defendant was cooperative. This type of information will get back to the prosecutor and may very well influence the prosecutor (and the judge's) decision on how to dispose of the case, i.e: deferment program, outright dismissal, abatement and dismissal, adjudication withheld, etc.

Know your local/state laws (to the best of your ability);
Know the attitudes of your local police at least in the place(es) you spend the most time;
Use the things you've read in this thread as a good guide;
But, don't be a robot - THINK. You will have to make judgment calls based on what you think you may be accused of, the reaction of the officers, and probably 1000 other little things that no one can possibly explain or prepare you for. If you decide that providing as little information as possible before you get an attorney is in your best interest, try your best not to come off as a wise-ass.
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Old February 9, 2012, 09:59 AM   #71
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"...if you have nothing to hide it will go much smoother to give consent."

As I said before, the reason why they are talking to you in the first place is they suspect you committed a crime. Therefore, if the police are asking to search your vehicle then most likely they are trying to build probable cause which will lead to an arrest.

The police will not come out and say things like "You are our suspect in a crime." They will not tell you directly their intentions or what evidence they already have or how they came to stop your vehicle. Therefore, you have to be on the defense whenever you have an encounter with the police. When I mean "defense", I do not mean to be impolite or stand-offish. You can protect your rights while being calm and polite. The police are not going to come after you with the Taser if you stand there calmly stating "I do not want my vehicle searched" or "I do not want to answer questions." The judge will not hold it against you if you decided not to allow a search or answer questions at the scene. It is understood these are your rights and there is no punishment for asserting them.

As for whats in your car, who knows whats in your car. There have been cases in the past of drug and gun runners placing contraband into a person's vehicle. The person then drives from Point A to Point B where the smugglers retrieve the contraband. Your teenagers or whoever used your vehicle last may have left behind some contraband like marijuana under the seat or an open container of beer in the back. You might have wondered into hostile firearms territory like NJ or NY where every other thing you do is a felony and whatever they find in your vehicle will be a reason to place you under arrest.

Actually, I just read about this most recent case.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/03/ma...ating-gun-law/

Another firearms owner who had a CCW in another state is caught behind enemy lines in the city of NY. Of course, these matters should be common knowledge nowadays, but if you have lived in Indiana all your life and have not experienced going behind enemy lines then you might not know better. I don't blame anyone for not knowing the many confusing and vague firearms laws which seem to change every 100 miles you drive.

I think I should have added another point to the original post:

If you have to ask someone about checking your firearm, see signs to the effect of "No firearms allowed" or going through a security checkpoint and you are carrying a firearm, rest assured you are already violating the law.
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Old February 9, 2012, 10:13 AM   #72
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Could someone please make a post here about "A firearm owner's guide to obeying the law." It will not only simplify things a great deal, it will amaze everyone.
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Old February 9, 2012, 12:54 PM   #73
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"Could someone please make a post here about "A firearm owner's guide to obeying the law."

It would be great to one day be able to write a thread detailing exactly how you can obey the law. However, as it is, there are so many confusing vague firearms laws on the books and then it gets even more complex when we cross political boundaries. What is a felony in one state is not a crime at all in a neighboring state. Some states have these laws about taking firearms into a school zone and there are firearms owners who accidentally wonder into these zones with their CCW. etc...

There have been a few documented cases where firearms owners have been arrested even though they carefully researched the law and took great pains to follow it. Brian Aitken had called the NJ State Police and the Department of Homeland Security to get specific advice and guidance on the laws. It seemed clear that he had absolutely no intent on violating the law. Despite his research, he still found himself in a jail cell wondering how he got there.

The reason why I authored this thread was to create discussion on the issue and make folks think. We have to make sure we know our rights in these matters. I sure do not want to see another Brian Aitken or Harold Fish incident and I think those situations could have been avoided if those individuals had handled things differently.
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Old February 9, 2012, 01:59 PM   #74
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Quote:
Quote:
His job is not to help you.
I guess keeping the peace and enforcing the law is not designed to help you. How is that murderers, robbers, and rapists end up in a jail cell? I can tell you first hand that the fairy godmother doesn't put them there. Trained men and women do. They do it by seeking the truth in the encounters they engage in. In order to get the truth, they rely on the statements of citizens so that those statements can be compared to the available evidence. There is a reason that we get to walk around in relative peace, in most places in this nation. It is not because of the good will of all mankind. I agree that you should think about your circumstances and be careful about what you say to police because not all police officers have the best of intentions. Weigh your options and use your rights based on your culpability and conscience. However, there is nothing wrong with looking the man in the eye and telling him the absolute truth, particularly when you have done nothing unreasonable by anyone's interpretation. The police are not the enemy as many lawyers would have you believe.

I didn’t say they were the enemy. The job of police is to protect society. If, in the instance of this thread, you are under suspicion of a crime, then the police are most definitely not there to help you. You are under suspicion like “murderers, robbers, and rapists” just noted. I wouldn’t expect, and indeed trust, that the police will treat you like a suspect. After all, they may be right.

I don’t know what the rest of that was.
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Old February 9, 2012, 04:35 PM   #75
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MTT TL - you never answered a very good question from bds32 ...

Quote:
Yes, I would be interested to know about completely innocent persons who spoke to a police officer and went to prison soley for the reason that they spoke the absolute truth, without regard to any other circumstance in the case such as the actual facts of the investigation (including misidentifications, lying witnesses, corrupt police officers and prosecutors, faulty evidence, etc.) I can be persuaded.
I would also be interested in this. You claim to have many examples, only limited by bandwidth. How about giving us just the 5 best ones...
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