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Old February 4, 2012, 03:59 AM   #1
MLeake
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Home Invasion, tragic consequences

Here's a case that does not appear to involve drug or gang involvement on the part of the victim. Two high school kids were alone in their home when they heard noise upstairs. The brother went to look, while the sister stayed below.

Apparently, the brother (15yo football player and honor student) surprised burglars, who shot him to death. Sister came up to find her brother lying on the floor, and to see men running away.

The article isn't clear as to how many burglars would have entered the home, but it says six men were arrested in connection with the break-in and shooting.

http://www.ajc.com/news/gwinnett/foo...d-1328994.html

Lessons:

1) Be very careful if you decide to investigate bumps in the night;

2) While it is statistically less likely for "nice families" to become the victims of home invasions, it does happen;

3) Had the boy been armed with a 5-shot snubbie, he would likely not have had enough rounds to deal with the apparent number of BG's.
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Old February 4, 2012, 04:20 AM   #2
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Sad case. Too bad they didn't just call 911 and hide somewhere in the basement. The scary part is that there were 6 of them. Glad the creeps were all caught.

I have already planned a defense and would only venture out of the master bedroom if one of the kids was there. Otherwise, it is just me and my wife. I have two loaded weapons, my 20 ga and my SP101. Maybe I ought to add a third loaded weapon to that as well.
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Old February 4, 2012, 05:55 AM   #3
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That is sad.

Quote:
3) Had the boy been armed with a 5-shot snubbie, he would likely not have had enough rounds to deal with the apparent number of BG's.
A 13+1 XD45acp loaded with the latest whiz-bang personal defense rounds wouldn't have done much to guarantee his survival.

I don't care what you're armed with. If you wander into a room where evil people are set to do you harm you're probably toast. Even trained officers don't make a habit of clearing houses alone. One person acting alone has a much better chance of survival if they try to not make it an offensive situation.
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Old February 4, 2012, 06:11 AM   #4
hangglider
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That's not far from where I live--I seriously doubt this did not have some gang element to it. While the group may not have official "colors affiliation" the tactics used as described are pretty classic for gangs in this region. The multiple members allow for a quick surveillance of a target home and then a quick "smash and grab" and toss into waiting getaway vehicle. This is the preferred method of gangs where I live in Chattanooga, and is a good illustration of what happens if one or more of them are armed. They know speed and numbers work in their favor and increase the likelihood of a getaway. Based on my conversations with victim homeowners and police--I believe in many of these cases the gangs know what they are after beforehand--in other words gangs know how to get intel through sources such as friends of the victim's family.

Throw in all the interstate highways through the area (drug importation and distribution)--and pawn shops that line the roads, and it's pretty easy to see why this is such fertile ground for gangs.
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Old February 4, 2012, 09:33 AM   #5
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Quote:
3) Had the boy been armed with a 5-shot snubbie, he would likely not have had enough rounds to deal with the apparent number of BG's.
Why? All the pro gun banter stays you just got to point a gun most of the time at the bad guys and they give up or flee.

Actually, it may not have mattered what the kid had if the bad guys were that apt to shoot. Even with a Springfield XD it could take a while to shoot 6 guys with disabling shots such that by the time you got through #2 or #3, guys 4, 5, and 6 may be shooting you. Having enough ammo for all the guys would not have put the situation in his favor. It might have in some situations, but apparently not here.

Quote:
Throw in all the interstate highways through the area (drug importation and distribution)--and pawn shops that line the roads, and it's pretty easy to see why this is such fertile ground for gangs.
I am sure you mean to imply that the pawn shops are heavily involved in the fencing of stolen merchandise. That is something of an antiquated perspective given the amount of regulation pawnshops face these days.
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Old February 4, 2012, 11:26 AM   #6
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A sad case. But an example for us of the risks of "checking things out."
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Old February 4, 2012, 11:36 AM   #7
TexasJustice7
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Quote:
Sport45: I don't care what you're armed with. If you wander into a room where evil people are set to do you harm you're probably toast. Even trained officers don't make a habit of clearing houses alone. One person acting alone has a much better chance of survival if they try to not make it an offensive situation.
Where I live there would have been damage to the door in order for them to get in. So I would not have entered but would have remained outside waiting for the police and to prevent anyone from escaping. However, I am normally armed only with a five shot 44 Spl CA Bulldog and a S&W 38 Spl five shot revolver, and have to go to the 4 or 5 speedloaders I carry in my pocket. My 45 S&W 625-5 Long Colt would not have been on me. If I lived where there were incidents like this I would start looking for a SA 45 or 44 Spl with higher capacity. I agree if he stumbled inside he was trapped.

In the city of Longview, Texas I know of three active street gangs, which include the MS 13, Davis Street gang, and one other gang, I don't recall the name of it offhand. The fact that they operate there, is the reason I will not
shop at JC Penney or Sears both of which have 30.06 No Gun signs which prevent me from legally carrying there. I think only local gangs operate near where I live.

If I encountered them at my home I probably would have become a statistic but I would have taken two or three of them with me. With one way in and one way out, not more than one of them at a time could could engage me in a gunfight trying to get out. But stories like this one posted here, is the reason I carry extra speedloaders and an extra 10 44 Spl rounds in a small container in one of my pockets. Chances are that these criminals were armed as well as I am, and I probably could not have stopped all of them.

If the federal government lets them come into the country, and they are armed with AK-47's or anything else and start operating near where I live I will spend the money and arm myself as well as they are.

Last edited by TexasJustice7; February 4, 2012 at 11:49 AM.
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Old February 4, 2012, 11:53 AM   #8
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The 5 shot snubbie comment by DNS. Love it. That's because most folks read the average or modal incident as always occuring. The lone, economically motivated mugger is likely to flee or be handled by such a gun.

But that doesn't always occur. Hence the argument for carrying more.

However, when you have found yourself in the extreme tail of the critical incident intensity distribution, speed loaders, mags, bugs, etc. - probably won't cut it. 6 guys with NAA 22 Mag revolvers would clean your clock close up. Even if you were carrying a fully auto Plasma rifle.

About exploring - when your subcortical territorial mind drives you to defend your tribal boundary as compared to the rational hunker down.

It's an old concept, known to the Greeks - like Plato's view of thymos and glory - in modern terms: System I (emotional, automatic and quick) or System II processing (deliberate, cognitive, rational).

A young fit football male - less developed frontal lobes for system II - hard to hunker down. I'm such a professor.

Another reason for FOF training. At KRtraining, we did a similar scenario. You are in the bedroom and hear the burglars. The Newbies took their shotgun (not real, obviously) and went to save the TV. Ended up on their tush and 'dead'. The hunkered in the safe room made it through.
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Old February 4, 2012, 01:07 PM   #9
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"I am sure you mean to imply that the pawn shops are heavily involved in the fencing of stolen merchandise. That is something of an antiquated perspective given the amount of regulation pawnshops face these days."

Could be...but if that were true then why does the local PD have officers assigned full-time to police pawn shops only?

Last edited by hangglider; February 4, 2012 at 01:33 PM.
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Old February 4, 2012, 03:06 PM   #10
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The pawnshop I deal with tries VERY hard to never receive stolen goods, and anyone selling or pawning also submits a thumbprint.
Well, they won't get my TV...it's in the bedroom. But they could have it if they want - it's an old pile.
Staying hunkered down only works if you have no compelling reason to move, and my son's room down the hall is a compelling reason to move, even though he has security measures in his room as well.
"Hardening" the target with security devices, alarms, and my favorite, big overly protective puppies should help reduce this type of thing.
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Old February 4, 2012, 04:12 PM   #11
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I'm sure that most pawn shops are legit and try to run an honest business--but I'm sure "hotstuff" still finds it's way in--not every homeowner keeps records of everything they have. And there are always the "trunkload sales" that go on nearby.
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Old February 4, 2012, 04:31 PM   #12
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Back to the OP--this scenario is the one I personally fear the most--other than a drive-by spraying with an AK--because nearly every house on my block and across the street has been hit using similar tactics. Because they often choose daylight hours--and I'm at home during the day--so far they've bypassed my house. I believe that proximity activity outside the home and anything that prevents the "go" decision being made is by far the best defense. If they decide to hit while I'm there--it's probably going to be a bloody mess one way or another since the gangs put a premium on speed.

Indeed a shame--I just reread the article--it mentions the kid was a playstation addict. Playstations and similar video game devices are one of the number one theft targets here. kids play...word gets around...

Last edited by hangglider; February 4, 2012 at 05:06 PM.
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Old February 4, 2012, 04:33 PM   #13
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Damn... he was just a kid and was probably never taught any better. That could have been me about 35 years ago. Damned shame, that is.
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Old February 5, 2012, 02:03 AM   #14
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When I mentioned the lack of gang or drug involvement, I meant on the part of the victims.

News accounts indicate they are a nice family; the boy was on his football team, and had been valedictorian at his middle school. Photo of the house looks like a nice place in a decent neighborhood.

I wasn't commenting on the nature of the BG's. My point was that while the majority of home invasions seem to target drug sellers or rival gang members (and thus many TFL posters seem to think they, being nice people in nice neighborhoods, are immune to the possibility), that here is an example where bad people victimized an apparently nice family.

IE, just because you are a nice person, in a nice part of town, it does not mean you will never encounter bad people.
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Old February 5, 2012, 02:07 AM   #15
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Various replies:

1) I agree, solo house clearing is rarely a good idea.

2) Capacity wouldn't have helped if multiple people, all with clear lines of fire, decided to engage. Capacity could have helped if a good defensive position had been established, which would have limited lines of fire. "Chokepoint" and "funnel of death" come to mind.

3) As a 15 year old high school wrestler, I probably would have gone and checked on the noise, too. As a 43 year old, trained shooter, I would try to establish a chokepoint instead, keeping myself between possible bad guys and my loved ones. (Of course, at home I have two med-large dogs, and a small and loud dog; odds are they'd alert, and that would change things quite a bit.)

4) There is no shame in bunkering and calling 911, though there are times (family members in other parts of the house) where bunkering may not be acceptable to us.
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Old February 5, 2012, 03:15 AM   #16
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ok. I live 3-4 miles from this highschool and 6 miles from this guys house.
This is exactly why I carry when I go to wal-mart, my GF's house, friends places, dog parks, and whatever else.
Even if he was old enough and had access to a weapon, its 6 against one. You pull the trigger once or twice and have it pulled against you 6-12 times in the same time frame.
I agree with hangglider. They may not be seen as gang members, but what else do you call a group of morons who break into people's houses and do kill people together? Its a gang to me.
I live in a condo and I am on the 3rd level. Chances are that I might not get hit. But if I do there are things that protect me. Such as my dog, who hears people coming up the stairs way before they get to my door, the double locked door that may get busted down, but oh well, the dog will greet you.
Also luckily, most everyone in my building owns guns, so thats even better.

On the tactics side, I also disagree with "checking things out" I can understand why, it was for family. That is the one big disadvantage of a home. Multiple levels, means you could potentially be cut off from the others during an attack.
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Old February 5, 2012, 09:57 AM   #17
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Quote:
Could be...but if that were true then why does the local PD have officers assigned full-time to police pawn shops only?
Valid question that also indicates that you are familiar with some of the regulation.

Historically, pawn shops had the reputation for receiving stolen goods. They were the one type of formal business present in most cities that regularly exchanged money for used goods, either through pawn or purchase, redeption of pawn, or sale. In doing so, the pawn shop was in a position to receive stolen goods simply by the nature of the transations that they conducted. At the time, pawn information was verbal and no identification required. That meant items could be pawned or sold under fictional names.

Somewhere along the way regulations were implemented that required identification for pawning and selling items to pawn shops and most states up ramped up the requirements to be actual state or federal ID or state DL and as noted above, some require a finger print as well.

This means that the person pawning or selling an item to a pawn shop has to present identification and hence will be tied to the item being pawned. Few people are moronic enough to pawn or sell an item to a pawn shop that they know to be stolen and provide their actual identification. Those few folks are caught very quickly in most cases, such as this idiot who stole and sold an Olympic torch...
http://www.ajc.com/news/stolen-atlan...h-1284794.html

The expense of passable forged identification isn't worth the low amount of return attained through pawning.

Where pawn shops do sometimes receive lost or stolen goods (and this does work for lost items) is when the stolen items are sold to a 3rd party and the 3rd party ends up pawning the item, not knowing it was stolen. Even this is fairly rare. If we had a dozen items put on hold by the police in any of our shops in a given year, that would have been a high number.

Given that pawn shops may have to forfeit items taken in that are determined to be lost or stolen, it is not in the shop's favor to receive stolen goods. Knowingly and willingly taking in stolen goods is a crime that can result in prison time as well as loss of the business (which would include losses of the pawn license for making loans and loss of their FFL).

Aside from the police checks (which now are usually filed via computer upload), pawn shops dealing in guns are also audited yearly by the ATFE and in several states such as Texas where I am, are regulated and a loaning institution like a bank and are audited by the state's bank regulating agency.

Since the story is from Atlanda, here is Jerry's Pawn. They note from the National Pawnbrokers Association that less than 1/2 of 1% of their items turn out to be stolen. That number isn't actually the number of items, but the pawn value, as I recall, but illustrates how low it is.
http://www.jerryspawn.com/tag/recovering-stolen-items/

You are more likely to be able to purchase a stolen item via a garage sale, newspaper ad, Craigs List, etc. than you are to get one from a pawn shop.
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Old February 5, 2012, 10:23 AM   #18
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I have been in the same situation before, twice. The first time I herd a sound coming from the basement, I didn't take any chances. I cleared the whole house quietly with a USP .45. Never found anybody, but better safe than sorry.
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Old February 5, 2012, 11:36 AM   #19
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Quote:
Posted by sigshepardo: The first time I herd a sound coming from the basement, I didn't take any chances. I cleared the whole house quietly with a USP .45. Never found anybody, but better safe than sorry.
Has it occurred to you that you were safe because you never found anybody?
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Old February 5, 2012, 12:18 PM   #20
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@double naught--I only know what I saw on a special news segment on TV where they interviewed the officer in charge of monitoring the pawn shops in our area. As I recall, the officer described the sheer volume of both number of shops as well as items moving through them as something they had trouble keeping up with. Literally books of serial numbers that needed to be matched with stolen ID items. I seem to recall the percentage of goods that were of possible stolen origin as being higher than the number you have, but still not that significant in terms of the overall volume of goods moved. I'll admit it was an exaggeration to imply that the copious number of pawn shops was due to stolen goods being actively fenced through the shops--but I suspect that there is a way to "launder" the goods so it is hard to trace or be claimed, but I have no proof of that, so it is just speculation.

Even criminals obey the laws of supply and demand.
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Old February 5, 2012, 04:35 PM   #21
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Sad situation as reported. But reports are often only an outline.

I must admit I'm thinking 6 guys don't go in cahoots to one house unless they think the six way split is going to make it worthwhile. And I'm thinking unless the house was way more ostentatious than the surrounding houses, they thought there were drugs or drug money there.

The age range of the suspects (46 to 19) do look to take it out of the gang-related area.
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Old February 5, 2012, 06:52 PM   #22
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"gang related"

Just trying to clear up an earlier comment about this not being gang related.

If someone were to collect crime statistics/murders in a given city it might change the picture if all of them occurred between rival gang members or if they were all gang members preying on regular citizens. Or previously unaffiliated people committing crimes by preying on citizens.

So I think the idea behind the comment was to lean away from the thought that the parents or children were in a gang, put themselves at risk, and "had it coming anyway". The home invasion seems to have been unprovoked.

It's noteworthy the different mind set of those 6 men. Who knows if they were surprised/startled - that could be a deceptive thing to say to the press rather than "we decided to shoot anyone inside". So the responsible citizen has some decisions to make first before he/she pulls the trigger.

It's a terrible thing that happened. I wish it did turn out differently but the confusion the young man caused may have spared his sister great harm.

So here's food for thought: If your children are teens or younger, what do you teach them to do? What access do you allow them to firearms?
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Old February 5, 2012, 07:12 PM   #23
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This hits close to home for me. One of my co-workers recently had a very near home invasion. Only his thirteen-year-old son was home. The two would-be invaders nearly kicked in the front door and the teen (unarmed) called 911. He yelled at the men that he had 911 on the phone and they eventually fled. I wonder, as does my co-worker, what would have happened had the bad guys not left the scene. To this day my co-worker has not taught his son how to use a defense firearm nor does he keep one handy in the home. He tries to never let his son be alone again... and he did buy his older daughters defense pistols. All this seems strange to me since my co-worker is ALL FOR home defense with firearms.
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Old February 5, 2012, 07:48 PM   #24
Nnobby45
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Quote:
)

1. Be very careful if you decide to investigate bumps in the night;

2) While it is statistically less likely for "nice families" to become the victims of home invasions, it does happen;

3) Had the boy been armed with a 5-shot snubbie, he would likely not have had enough rounds to deal with the apparent number of BG's.
Re: 2 OK, just what is to be learned from this "lesson"?

If you have intruders in your home when the statistics say it's unlikely, how does this "lesson" do one single thing to deal with the problem? I think learning this "lesson" is only likely to make MORE people LESS prepared to deal with it when you have folks saying it isn't likely to happen to them.

Were all the intruders armed with a deadly weapon? When you speculate that something might have happened if, there's no "lesson" there, either. Just a board member posting his thoughts we re: to what might have happened IF.

Not suggesting that a 5 shot revolver is the best HD gun, but lessons are learned from actual events and the dead young man was armed with nothing with which to defend his life.

It's easy to see that a home owner with a revolver, facing multiple assailants, could could have fought his way back to safety. No lesson here, either. Just a possibility.

Real lessons:

1. leave the house and call the police from a neighbor's instead of investigating. Or get out of the house to use your cell phone, if you can't.

2. When you hear gunfire after a loved one has gone to investigate unarmed, leave the house and go get help, or at least get to safety before you use your cell phone.

Sorry to be a little hard on you for expressing an opinion, but there's a distinction between real lessons and speculation.

Last edited by Nnobby45; February 5, 2012 at 07:54 PM.
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Old February 5, 2012, 07:49 PM   #25
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Thirteen??

I have grandkids around that age. I would not be teaching SD to them. I have met other 13 YO's who would be mature enough. Many are not.
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