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Old February 5, 2012, 04:22 PM   #51
armoredman
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No, in my not so humble opinion, it wasn't. I have open carried for 28 years, off and on, (mostly CCW nowadays for various reasons), and I have never experienced that type of behavior. The ONE time I was relieved of my sidearm was when my bank mistakenly listed my debit card as stolen, and while I was waiting, officers arrived and disarmed me. They had probable cause, which was explained to me during the course of the incident. At the end of the incident after it had been proven to all parties that the offending article was, indeed, legally my property, the officers returned my sidearm and ammunition, commented on what a nice gun it was and complimented me on my choice of carry ammo - Hydra Shok, IIRC.
Judging solely by the information provided, since we have no other accounts to go from, I think it's not power tripping here from open carrier, the power trip was the officer - wonder how long he's been out of the academy. I remember a story of two brand new COs that decided to play cops and pulled over a vehicle, issued a verbal warning and received a verbal warning - they'd pulled over their Warden. Neither was employed with DOC the following day.
Hopefully this officer will get a wake up call before he does something really out of line.
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Old February 5, 2012, 05:45 PM   #52
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Who said it was the buying of the ammo? I wasn't there it could have been something he heard said along with him being armed. As far as I'm concerned the guy was stopped, turned out to be doing nothing wrong, and he left. Everyone around here makes it like he was part of the inquisition.

More like the power tripping of OC is turned into insecurity when someone gets attention for it.
Baloney.

There was no reason for the off-duty deputy to question him at all, going from the information in the OP. None whatsoever. Period, end of story. He wasn't detained, but he wasn't free to go? Power trip by a LEO who sounds like he doesn't even know the law.

And it's very easy and convenient to turn this back on the OP for open carrying. Poor argument and poor reasoning.
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Old February 5, 2012, 05:55 PM   #53
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What if the scenario were slightly different. Sounds like WV has CCW. What if the officer decided to search everyone in the store to check for CCW's and make sure none found were stolen? Is that OK? I mean if these folks are all legal why should they care? Just like the OC guy should you just expect that , I mean you are carrying a concealed weapon , IN PUBLIC ! How is the cop collecting everyone's gun in the building and calling them all in any different? While everyone in the store is being detained they all should be handcuffed too right ? The officer has a right to insure his own safety. Why is it not OK to handcuff everyone in the building but somehow OK to handcuff the OP?
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Old February 5, 2012, 05:56 PM   #54
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Everyone is spun up over an issue that was wrong, and alot of other descriptors, but not wrong enough for the OP to get the "officers" information....

I too have had a run in with a cop where I felt I was wronged (traffic stop, not gun related)....I drove to a station and reported it.
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Old February 5, 2012, 06:08 PM   #55
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And it's very easy and convenient to turn this back on the OP for open carrying. Poor argument and poor reasoning
For my part, I wasn't blaming the OP for bad judgement when he walked into the store while open-carrying. What the deputy did was reprehensible and needs to be addressed to keep the moron from repeating this kind of action in the future.

I did express my feeling that open-carry sometimes sends the wrong message to a lot of folks out there in the world, and I'm not sure that it helps the cause of gun rights sometimes. When only a few do it, it makes those those who do appear to be eccentric oddballs and therefore scary to other people.
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Old February 5, 2012, 06:19 PM   #56
Grant D
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Sounds like a new LEO trying to impress his son at your expence.
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Old February 5, 2012, 07:15 PM   #57
Al Norris
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When was the last time anyone ever heard of a crook (Bad Guy = Prohibited Person) carrying openly?

Crooks, by their nature, will carry concealed in order to surprise their victim(s). Crooks, by their nature, will carry concealed to hide their act from any police that may know them (whether they are actually prohibited or not).

We are not talking about an encounter in/with a vehicle or in some shady place. This encounter took place in a public space via a walking, but openly carrying man.

Taking the facts, as expressed in the OP, as true; There can be no ARS for a stop and check.

In General;
  1. What makes something unlawful, is that there is a statute passed by the legislature that prohibits that something.
    1. If whatever you want to do is not prohibited by law, it is then lawful.
    2. Lawful prohibitions of certain acts are further modified by the Courts.
      1. Case law prevails over whatever you think the statute actually says.
  2. Concealed Carry is generally an exception to the statute prohibiting the act of carrying while concealed.
  3. Some few States have enacted statutes that prohibit all carry.
    1. These same States may have exceptions to the prohibitions on carrying firearms within the public sphere.
In general, if you live in a State where open carry is lawful, it is because your State has enacted no law to prohibit that activity. If there is no law prohibiting the act, then in and of itself, the act cannot be a reason for suspicion.

It is, in general, only where the act is an exception to the law that prohibits the act, where articulable reasonable suspicion can attach.

The last point I would like to make. Most people, including many of our police don't know the gun laws of their own State. They see something; It looks bad (because the practice isn't common); They think someone is breaking the law; they report it... Or in this case, detain the individual.

That's the reality of what we see in many areas, throughout the U.S.

What I like to do, is to make it a teaching moment. No, not at the scene, but later at the station with the officer and the Chief/Supervisor/Sgt.

What I don't do is to get bent out of shape, because reality intrudes its ugly head.
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Old February 5, 2012, 07:55 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by teeroux
An officer can detain a person if they have resonable suspicion that a crime has been or is about to be commited.

Also if the officer can articulate that the area is high in crime or that in his experience for the area most persons armed are criminaly armed that gives him resonable supicion.
You are a bit mixed up. An officer can make a preliminary, investigative contact (not a detention) if he has a "reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed." The Supreme Court specifically stated that a hunch is not sufficient -- there must be clearly articulable FACTS to support a suspicion of criminal activity.

In a state where open carry withOUT a permit is legal, what "clearly articulable facts" could this deputy possibly enunciate that would in any way support a suspicion of a crime?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teeroux
More like the power tripping of OC is turned into insecurity when someone gets attention for it.
"Power tripping"?

What power tripping? I can't open carry in my state, and in the summer it's a real nuisance to have to dress in ways that keep my sidearm concealed without baking me. I would love to just "let it all hang out," and I assure that power tripping has nothing to do with it. Comfort and convenienec has everything to do with it.
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Old February 5, 2012, 08:02 PM   #59
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Let's not forget that the deputy ran the serial number on the gun. IMHO that was itself an unconstitutional search. The OP was standing in a checkout line at Wal-Mart. What gave the deputy any right to run the serial number "to see if it was stolen"? He had no indication that it might be stolen. If there was any power tripping going on in this episode, it was on the part of the deupty, not the OP.
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Old February 5, 2012, 08:04 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Sparks1957
I did express my feeling that open-carry sometimes sends the wrong message to a lot of folks out there in the world, and I'm not sure that it helps the cause of gun rights sometimes. When only a few do it, it makes those those who do appear to be eccentric oddballs and therefore scary to other people.
I agree. Isn't that a good reason why MORE people should do it? Then we won't be the odd-balls.
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Old February 5, 2012, 08:13 PM   #61
Sparks1957
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Yes, that makes sense to me.

Realistically, though, what percentage of even the shooting public would do so even it were legal to do so everywhere?

I wonder... but I don't think it would ever be that common a sight.
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Old February 5, 2012, 08:23 PM   #62
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When were his rights violated? I have the right to drive down the street, and if a cop pulls me over they are not violating my rights.

If I was in the store and someone was walking around with a gun on his hip I would be concerned.
from comn-cents post #7 and #9.

Not very common of you to say that a person carrying should 'be checked out'.

Do you get pulled over to see if you have a drivers license or have been drinking??

Maybe OC is not legal in the pacific NW (where ever that is)?? In this state one need not present ID when requested and OCing. Some LEO still like the ego trips.

The 2A applies here. Get it to apply there.
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Old February 5, 2012, 08:36 PM   #63
Carry_24/7
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I was a resident of Arizona for over 3 years while working at Yuma Army Proving Ground, and I never OCd, and veeeery rarely saw anyone else doing so. So here is one witness....I had the opportunity to OC and did not.

Now, my personal choice is just that, personal....anyone legally OCing should not be singled out by LE just because they are OCing.

There's always two sides to a story, and we weren't there. No one in jail did anything wrong if you ask them, and LE almost always does the right thing if you ask them......this should have been reported through local LE channels to avoid controversy and ensure the rights of law abiding OC practitioners.
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Old February 5, 2012, 08:44 PM   #64
teeroux
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Do you get pulled over to see if you have a drivers license or have been drinking??
There called insurance and DWI checkpoints.
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Old February 5, 2012, 08:50 PM   #65
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teeroux

You have been consistently on the side of the deputy in this thread.

So why don't state the articulable reason the deputy had for doing what he did? One that would stand up in a court of law.

Then you can prove all of us unreasonable, anti-police state folks wrong.
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Old February 6, 2012, 12:12 AM   #66
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by langenc
When were his rights violated? I have the right to drive down the street, and if a cop pulls me over they are not violating my rights.
If there is no articulable reason to pull you over, they sure as heck ARE violating your rights. Specifically, the 4th Amendment of the Constitution -- unreasonable search and seizure. The police may NOT just arbitrarily pull over any vehicle they see on the road for no reason other than they felt like stopping a green Nissan Altima on Thursday. They have to have a reason. It can be small -- a burned out taillight, or a failure to signal for a lane change -- but they have to have a reason.

Likewise the situation of the OP. What the deputy conducted was an investigative stop and detention. And he had NO justifiable reason for doing so. His reason was that he saw the OP open carrying. Open carry is LEGAL in that state.

End of discussion.
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Old February 6, 2012, 12:33 AM   #67
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Reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime is an awfully low bar, and can easily be manufactured after-the-fact if necessary. "I smelled marahuana smoke coming from the vehicle" (as the officer passes by going 70 mph the other direction), etc.
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Old February 6, 2012, 01:48 AM   #68
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by zxcvbob
Reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime is an awfully low bar, and can easily be manufactured after-the-fact if necessary. "I smelled marahuana smoke coming from the vehicle" (as the officer passes by going 70 mph the other direction), etc.
But ... Reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts (it is NOT "reasonable articulable suspicion" -- it is the underlying facts the officer must be able to clearly articulate, not the suspicion) is not probable cause. Reasonable suspicion ONLY allows the officer to conduct a brief investigatory stop. If his initial investigation does not support the "reasonable suspicion" that a crime has been committed (or is being committed), his justification ends right there and he has no probable cause to further detain the subject of the investigatory stop.

"You got a license fer thet thar pistol, sonny?"

"Don't need one, Depewty, this here's West-by-God Virginny and open carry's legal here."

"Oh ... Ummm, have a nice day."
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Old February 6, 2012, 07:49 AM   #69
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"You got a license fer thet thar pistol, sonny?"

"Don't need one, Depewty, this here's West-by-God Virginny and open carry's legal here."

"Oh ... Ummm, have a nice day."
Stated better than I could have.

"Whoa, whoa, whoa- I'm not done with you yet."

"Yes, you are. Goodbye."
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Old February 6, 2012, 08:29 AM   #70
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Know your rights. Act within them. Keep it simple.
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Old February 6, 2012, 12:03 PM   #71
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IANAL, but as soon as the deputy told the OP that he was not free to leave and seized his handgun to run the serial number, I believe the deputy opened himself up to a Federal lawsuit for deprivation of civil rights under color of law.
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Old February 6, 2012, 12:31 PM   #72
AH.74
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I agree. "Not being detained" does not equal "Not free to leave."

This is a perfect example of why I have my attorney's numbers in my phone. I would have made an immediate call for legal advice while standing there.
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Old February 6, 2012, 12:59 PM   #73
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Quote:
Do you get pulled over to see if you have a drivers license or have been drinking??


There called insurance and DWI checkpoints.
Indeed, in Texas we now have "no refusal" drunk driver checkpoints that randomly appear.
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Old February 6, 2012, 01:07 PM   #74
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I agree. "Not being detained" does not equal "Not free to leave."

This is a perfect example of why I have my attorney's numbers in my phone. I would have made an immediate call for legal advice while standing there.
Your attorney would have likely told you to be quiet, consent to nothing, but in no way resist anything either.

I will note in general we have rights. Those rights typically help us, after the fact of the incident. One should never attempt to actively resist, run away, etc. (in general not responding to a particular poster)
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Old February 6, 2012, 01:15 PM   #75
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I only read your OP but that sucks. I probably wouldn't have open carried and just avoided the attention in the first place but if your allowed to and you want to then they can kiss your glass. I would have gotten his name and badge number and then walked away. If he chased me I would have called the police and said one of their deputies was chasing me, I did nothing wrong, and he's trying to illegally stop me. Also, for everyone else saying how did the cop know that he wasn't a criminal, how many gang bangers and felons do you see walking around open carrying?
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