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Old February 3, 2012, 05:53 PM   #26
manta49
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nate45


manta49, your N. Ireland life and police view has very, very little to do with
the reality of armed home invasions in the USA. Instead of telling us what the police in N. Ireland would do, or what you would do there; research armed home invasions, burglary and murder in the USA. Claiming to be the police is one tactic home invaders use. Waiting to see if the guys in camouflage with weapons are really police could cost you your life. Think about it, if you are innocent (as far as you know) and law abiding, you have no reason to suspect they are real police.

Try looking into terrorist attacks in N Ireland. You will find a favorite method of attack was coming trough your front door with a sledge hammer and then shooting you. A favorite method for police house entry is coming trough your door with a sledge hammer. You would better make sure which you know which it is before you start shooting. Not easy but get is wrong and you will have plenty of time in jail to wish you had identified your target before shooting.

Last edited by manta49; February 3, 2012 at 06:16 PM.
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Old February 3, 2012, 09:05 PM   #27
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Fifteen or twenty years ago (the days are hastening by) there was a case in Philadelphia where the police went after some bad guys in a townhouse. The bad guys, whoever they were, had practically fortified the house. It ended up with almost the whole block being burned down. The citizens did not complain!
If you are talking about the 1985 Philly police confrontation with MOVE, lots of people did complain including the mayor. The fact was that the people in the house were a total bunch of nut jobs living in filth and waste. The neighbors had been complaining for years about the crazies and practically begging the police to do something about it. To top it off they then killed a cop.

The police responded by dropping a bomb from a helicopter after a lengthy stand off. I don't see how that applies here at all.
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Old February 3, 2012, 09:34 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49
Try looking into terrorist attacks in N Ireland. You will find a favorite method of attack was coming trough your front door with a sledge hammer and then shooting you. A favorite method for police house entry is coming trough your door with a sledge hammer. You would better make sure which you know which it is before you start shooting. Not easy but get is wrong and you will have plenty of time in jail to wish you had identified your target before shooting.
I could not find anything about terrorists and sledgehammers in N. Ireland. Perhaps you can provide some links to statistics and examples? I know I can provide plenty of examples of home invasions here in the USA and of police serving warrants at the wrong address.

For the sake of discussion though, how would you identify the police as not being terrorists if they both use the same entry methods? Also, if you are a law abiding citizen; why would the police be breaking down your door? If an incident like that described in the Op happens in N. Ireland, what do the police say 'sorry'? Sorry we got the wrong address and sorry we used the same entry methods as terrorists, sorry you were confused and tried to defend yourself, but now you must go to prison because of our mistake? Sounds ridiculous to me, but I don't have to worry about the laws of N. Ireland, just like you have no worries about US law.

You see, the point many of us are trying to make, is that getting the wrong address, unduly puts law abiding citizens in unnecessary jeopardy. Reasonable, law abiding people, that have their doors kicked in by armed men tend to assume the worst.
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Old February 3, 2012, 11:00 PM   #29
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In this age of high tech GPS, survelliance gear and the other techno gagets the Cops use. They have forgotten two basic skills.

1. How to Read the address on a warrant.
2. How to use a Thomas Guide or Rand Mcnally street guide.

I think we should expect those basic skills from the "Premier Law Enforcement Agency".
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Old February 3, 2012, 11:54 PM   #30
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44 AMP posted a warning earlier in the thread, and some folks aren't getting it. Posts have been disappeared.

If we want to discuss the legal issues surrounding a given law enforcement action, that's fine. If the line gets crossed into cop bashing or fantasies of shooting it out with law enforcement, we're done here.
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Old February 4, 2012, 05:36 AM   #31
manta49
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Quote.

You see, the point many of us are trying to make, is that getting the wrong address, unduly puts law abiding citizens in unnecessary jeopardy. Reasonable, law abiding people, that have their doors kicked in by armed men tend to assume the worst.
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No one is saying that the police should not of went to the wrong address i tought that would go without saying but obviously not. As for methods of forced entry the same methods are used most of the world over. I have seen on a progharm showing police in England using a chain saw to enter a house. If the police entered the wrong house here then it would be reported to the police ombudsman for investigation and disciplinary action taken if necessary. If you are not sure weather its the police coming trough your door or someone wanting to do you harm, then you would have to make a judgment and better get it right.

Last edited by manta49; February 4, 2012 at 05:41 AM.
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Old February 4, 2012, 11:59 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49
If you are not sure weather its the police coming trough your door or someone wanting to do you harm, then you would have to make a judgment and better get it right.
That's sort of the crux of the issue, isn't it? The issue is, in a supposedly free society allegedly operating under the rule of law, exactly WHY should the citizen be put in the position of having to worry that the ruffians breaking through his front door might be the police?
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Old February 4, 2012, 12:15 PM   #33
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Fitchburg is such a crap hole of a town, they probably just figured if it was the wrong house they'd fine something illegal any ways.. Does the lady deserve more than an apology and a new door? Yes. Millions of dollars, Hell no...
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Old February 4, 2012, 12:27 PM   #34
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It happens in the UK as well. www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0_-cL6huAU Difference in England in most cases the police are not armed. So you would have trouble convincing a jury that you where justifying shooting at them.
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Old February 4, 2012, 12:53 PM   #35
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Quote:
44 AMP posted a warning earlier in the thread, and some folks aren't getting it. Posts have been disappeared.

If we want to discuss the legal issues surrounding a given law enforcement action, that's fine. If the line gets crossed into cop bashing or fantasies of shooting it out with law enforcement, we're done here.
Tom, I understand that staff has to keep things in order here @ TFL. However, human beings (civilians, LEO, forum admin) make mistakes, fact of business, period end. TFL members choose to discuss the nature of law enforcement (who, are paid to uphold the law and do so with competence, and who will punish or kill you without mercy) and the easily avoidable, unacceptable mistakes that they make, let them discuss.

I'm not bashing cops or forum staff, I'm just expecting law enforcement and forum staff to live by the same standard that they enforce.
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Old February 4, 2012, 03:11 PM   #36
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In England you go to jail if you shoot anyone, invading or not. Criminals are the kings.
Here I can state without reservation that there is no lawful reason for any law enforcement agency to do a violent "dynamic entry" into my home, and we do have incidents of LE impostors doing such home invasions in neighboring locations. So I would act as if it were, and most likely, (99% probability, in my humble opinion), unlawful invaders, being that anyone breaking down my security doors is not someone looking for donations to The 100 Club. Measures appropriate to the situation would be implemented. Dealing with the aftermath would be hard, expensive,and undoubtedly life changing.

BTW, if anyone does ask for donations, that is a great outfit to donate to.
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Old February 4, 2012, 06:16 PM   #37
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armoredman. Quote.

In England you go to jail if you shoot anyone, invading or not. Criminals are
the kings.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are wrong. In this instance the weapon was a knife. But if he had taken a gun of him and used it to shoot him it would of being the same result you have the right to self defence in the UK that includes lethal force. Example of self defence below.


Vincent Cooke, 39, killed Raymond Jacob, 37, a career criminal, during a violent struggle at his detached house in Bramhall, Stockport, Greater Manchester, last month.

Yesterday, as the Crown Prosecution Service announced that Mr Cooke would not be charged over the incident, the businessman said he had endured "a living nightmare". He also revealed that he was suffering flashbacks about the incident and would never forget "the day that I had to fight for my life".

Last edited by manta49; February 4, 2012 at 07:00 PM.
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Old February 4, 2012, 06:23 PM   #38
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You are wrong but don't let that get in the way of the truth.
So Tony Martin is out of jail with his life back? Thanks for the gratuitous insult, and welcome to the ignore list.
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Old February 4, 2012, 06:45 PM   #39
manta49
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Quote. armoredman.




So Tony Martin is out of jail with his life back? Thanks for the gratuitous insult, and welcome to the ignore list.
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Tony Martin Had his firearms certificate revoked for shooting at the car of a salesman that was on the lane to his farm. The shotgun that he used to shoot 2 unarmed buglers he possessed illegally.

So he shot to buglers with a illegal shotgun. One he shot was fleeing the seen. And you are surprised he went to jail. Possessing an illegal shotgun was enough to get jailed shooting 2 people with it was more than enough.

Ignore me and these facts if you wish to. PS didn't mean to insult i have removed the offending part of the post.

Last edited by manta49; February 4, 2012 at 06:59 PM.
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Old February 4, 2012, 07:15 PM   #40
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The right is there in the UK, however it is interpreted in some crazy ways in the courts. For example if you fire four shots at a car trying to run you over and between the third and fourth shot the car turns, the fourth shot is not allowed and they can send you to prison for that.

Most courts in the US would not convict someone under such circumstances.
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Old February 4, 2012, 10:57 PM   #41
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I'm not bashing cops or forum staff, I'm just expecting law enforcement and forum staff to live by the same standard that they enforce.
I never said we couldn't criticize. That's part of the whole freedom dealie we all cherish. The situation that's the subject of this thread is worthy of criticism. The erroneous and incompetent deeds of some actors are worthy of criticism.

What aren't worthy are broad attacks on all law enforcement, or posts suggesting violence against them.
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Old February 5, 2012, 06:43 AM   #42
manta49
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MTT TL
Senior Member Quote.


The right is there in the UK, however it is interpreted in some crazy ways in the courts. For example if you fire four shots at a car trying to run you over and between the third and fourth shot the car turns, the fourth shot is not allowed and they can send you to prison for that.
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You are right to an certain extent, But its never that black and white If someone is driving a car towards a police officer and he fires three shots that's self defense. If the car stops after the third shot and turns away and is no longer a threat but the police officer keeps shooting then its no longer self defence.

Police officers in England shot an innocent man on a train who they suspected was a terrorist 7 times in the head. No charges where brought against the officers involved.
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Old February 5, 2012, 09:01 AM   #43
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FBI

I would like to see the actual warrant. I am wondering if the address on the warrant was incorrect, or if the address was correct on the warrant and the agents hit the wrong house. It makes a dig difference as to who is at fault. Here's an example:

Let's say Billy Red is a bad guy who lives at 123 Main street. He commits a felony crime, police investigate, and swear out a warrant for his arrest. Mistakenly, a clerk types 132 Main street and no one notices. A magistrate signs the warrant and it goes to the warrant division. Mind you, the warrant division guys may not be familiar with specifics of the case. Guys from the warrant division go to 132 Main and since they have a felony warrant, they are allowed to breech the door.... to the wrong house.
Or it could be that Billy Red did not actually live at 123 Main Street at all, and the police got it wrong when they were swearing out the warrant.
Either way.... it's a sucky scenario.

I am wondering if it was just a search warrant or if it was a search & arrest warrant (there's a difference in Texas).

I am surprised they used a chainsaw. It is a slow way to breech a door. If forceable entry is justified in the first place, just kick it or use a battering ram. In this case, however, using a chain saw was beneficial since the door will be easy to replace.

By and large I am not a fan of the FBI. I have worked with them on several occasions and here is my take: F.B.I. = Famous But Incompetent.
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Old February 5, 2012, 10:19 AM   #44
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Everyone makes mistakes...just yesterday I left the light on in the car and ran the battery dead. Idiotic.

But when a group of folks are about to stick a chainsaw thru someone's door, a double or triple check of the address and occupants might be worth the time it takes to drink a cup of coffee. Was there a hostage or something at stake like a heart attack that dictated the hurry up? Some mistakes are avoidable.
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Old February 5, 2012, 03:40 PM   #45
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The general problem is that when the police do raid the wrong address, whether the address on the paper is wrong and the raid cops are right, or the paper is right, and the raid cops are at the wrong location, the best results are only damaged property, and one's dignity.

The real threat to officer safety is the lack of overisight (at various levels) making the mistake possible. It's dangerous for us, and its dangerous for them.

I know all about the "thin blue line" and the "us vs them" that allows and even encourages closed ranks and covering for minor mistakes. Its human nature, BUT, there should be serious accountability when mistakes like this are made, especially when they are clearly preventable with just a little more dilligence on the part of the police organization.

Just because there were no shootings/fatalities THIS TIME, doesn't mean that the people responsible should get a pass. Everytime that happens, nothing gets fixed. And the next time, an officer, or a citizen may wind up dead.

Jailing a 15yr veteran officer who's only mistake was getting the wrong address isn't the right answer, but neither is "sorry,... here's a check for the damages" the right answer either.

Mistakes are going to happen, as long as there are people, but, the target should be zero errors. Now, how do we make this happen?
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Old February 5, 2012, 08:36 PM   #46
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You are right to an certain extent, But its never that black and white
Really? I bet PVT Clegg will disagree. I mean prisoner Clegg that is.
Quote:
If someone is driving a car towards a police officer and he fires three shots that's self defense. If the car stops after the third shot and turns away and is no longer a threat but the police officer keeps shooting then its no longer self defence.
Yes, and that is totally nutty. The guy was trying to kill you already. Turning a different direction does not mean he is getting ready to stop trying, maybe changing tactics.
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Old February 5, 2012, 09:27 PM   #47
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"Mistakes are going to happen, as long as there are people, but, the target should be zero errors. Now, how do we make this happen?"

I have lived in the world of mistakes happening that cost lives while in the military. You just keep trying to find out the cause of the mistakes and try not to repeat them.

In the world of life or death, mistakes, costly mistakes happen. Effort and constant training help. But they will always happen if you are in combat. It seems to me that no knock warrants are issued too freely. We have to look for errors from the bottom up as well as from the top down and correct the erroneous procedures. Punishment for mistakes is not always productive. Training usually is.

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Old February 6, 2012, 12:14 AM   #48
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FBI uses chainsaw on wrong place

It was reported, a month or two ago in Arizona, a young Marine just back from a tour of duty overseas was shot over 20 times. A SWAT team broke into his house because they suspected one of his relatives was dealing in drugs. His wife saw some strange people running around his house. She yelled to him when he was asleep in his bed that strangers with guns were running around his house. He picked up his rife and when the Swat team burst thru the door they drilled him full of holes! His rifle still had the safe on! Didn't sound like he had much of a chance to even drop his rifle. He never fired a shot or threatened anyone! I didn't know it was a crime punishable by firing squad to hold a rifle in your hand in your own house!
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Old February 6, 2012, 12:30 AM   #49
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That's been discussed at length.

I believe one of the guns found in the home was stolen. I support the military but just because he was a Marine doesn't mean he's always on the straight and narrow.
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Old February 6, 2012, 12:52 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by 44AMP
The general problem is that when the police do raid the wrong address, whether the address on the paper is wrong and the raid cops are right, or the paper is right, and the raid cops are at the wrong location, the best results are only damaged property, and one's dignity.

The real threat to officer safety is the lack of overisight (at various levels) making the mistake possible. It's dangerous for us, and its dangerous for them.

I know all about the "thin blue line" and the "us vs them" that allows and even encourages closed ranks and covering for minor mistakes. Its human nature, BUT, there should be serious accountability when mistakes like this are made, especially when they are clearly preventable with just a little more dilligence on the part of the police organization.

Just because there were no shootings/fatalities THIS TIME, doesn't mean that the people responsible should get a pass. Everytime that happens, nothing gets fixed. And the next time, an officer, or a citizen may wind up dead.

Jailing a 15yr veteran officer who's only mistake was getting the wrong address isn't the right answer, but neither is "sorry,... here's a check for the damages" the right answer either.

Mistakes are going to happen, as long as there are people, but, the target should be zero errors. Now, how do we make this happen?
How about if they are at the wrong address (doesn't match what's written on the warrant) the officers involved lose all qualified immunity? I'll bet they'd start checking the addresses a lot closer! For the other case (at the right address but the warrant never should have been issued in the first place), supervisors need to lose their jobs and/or be civilly liable.

I know that's too simplistic, but it's a start.
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