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Old February 1, 2012, 12:16 AM   #26
arcticap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garyson1311
Ok that makes sense. I guess what im wondering now is what was that material coming out of the barrel? Was it from the barrel itself? powder muck?
It sounds like it has a serious corrosion problem and what was being pulled out is rust and/or scale.

Scale is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale
Fouling, buildup of unwanted substances, sometimes called "scale", on hard surfaces, such as the inside of a pipe
It could be a combination of powder residue and rust. Who knows what the liquid is. Maybe the previous owner put some kind of oil or solvent down the bore to try to loosen up the scale.
Maybe you could ask him.
Anyway the condition of the bore sounds terrible, and is probably the reason why he gave it away.
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Old February 1, 2012, 08:19 AM   #27
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From the looks of the pics of the neglected nipple area and from what going on inside the bbl. this would be my process to see if bbl was salvageable.

I'd remove the bbl. and get me a cheap, plastic wallpaper tray(they are long, your bbl should fit in one). Place bbl in tray and pour ATF(automatic transmission fluid) to cover bbl. completely. Let soak for a day or so, remove and use a bore brush in bore and around nipple. Let soak some more and repeat brushing.

I'd keep doing this till all rust/corrosion was removed from bbl. and nipple area.

Run some dry patches through bbl and using bore light, check to see how bad the pitting is. If you determine bbl. is usable, you can start on removing nipple.
If the shoulders on the nipple aren't corroded badly, use a nipple wrench. If nipple wrench won't fit ,try using small vise grips. If nipple breaks off, then removal can get tricky as you will have to carefully drill remaining nipple out being careful not to drill into bbl threads. The soaking in the ATF will help with loosening the nipple so if the nipple wrench doesn't work, you may try more soaking before attempting the vise grips.

After bbl. cleaning, inspection and nipple replacement, you determine you want to give the old bbl. a try, run some TC #13 bore cleaner soaked patches through bbl. Run a few dry patches through. Load and shoot.

Your bbl. may now be in rough shape and not ready for competitive shooting but you just won't know its accuracy till you get it cleaned and shoot it.

Also, if you work on this bbl. or get a new one, when you install the nipple, place a very small amount of 'Permatex anti-seize' compound on threads of nipple insuring not to get any in or around nipple flash-hole. This makes for future removal when repeating cleaning easier.
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Old February 1, 2012, 10:19 AM   #28
Pahoo
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Count yourself lucky !!!

Quote:
its stuck... I pulled it very hard and it came out but I can feel little grits of metal or something on the patch..
If you go back and read my previous reply, you will notice that I listed the use of a lubricated patch. This is preferred, over a dry patch as dry patches in unknown bores, makes for stuck ram-rods. ...

Will be back for more but you do have a problem barrel and again, to confirm, you do have a Pre-Stamped TC Hawken model. ...


Be Safe !!!
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Old February 1, 2012, 12:52 PM   #29
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The only thing for it is to pour boiling water in that barrel and work on it with a bristle brush and patches until it comes clean.

Then buy yourself a tiny AAA flashlight and drop it down the barrel and see how it looks.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter how it looks, what matters is how it shoots.

Steve
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Old February 1, 2012, 01:20 PM   #30
Garyson1311
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Thanks for the responses.

Shortwave, this is probably a dumb question but it will help me understand what I need to do... What does bbl mean? Also, I am definitely going to give it a thorough cleaning and inspection. Thanks for the tips. Im not looking to get into competition, just looking to try punching some paper at the range for some old shooting feel. I just want to make sure it doesnt blow up!

Pahoo, the patch was sprayed with breakfree and kept coming out black/brown but started getting cleaner. It got stuck twice and thats where I pulled the junk out of it. Definitely looks like a prestamped hawken.. Any idea on age?

maillemaker, you are absolutely right and the idea about the flashlight is genius! I will try the various methods you guys have given me for cleaning. Thanks a million!

Oh hey, basspro only had metric nipples... Im assuming this gun uses standards?
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Old February 1, 2012, 01:23 PM   #31
shortwave
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posted by Pahoo:

Quote:
If you go back and read my previous reply, you will notice that I listed the use of a lubricated patch. This is preferred, over a dry patch as dry patches in unknown bores, makes for stuck ram-rods...
^^^This is experience talking.^^^

You don't want to run a dry patch down a bore unless you know the bore is cleaned.

Also, old Indian trick... if you ever run a dry patch and it sticks your ram-rod, pour #13 solvent down bore and let patch soak up solution. Will make things a little less sticky and easier to remove.
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Old February 1, 2012, 01:51 PM   #32
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Okay guys here's a big question I have. If I can get the bore fairly clear and cleaned, my nipple replaced or cleaned out, and am wanting to try shooting it.

Do you guys suggest going off of the current tc hawken manual for load data to at least attempt to shoot this thing? Do you suggest a light load or anything like that? The manual calls for the following as the lightest load.. 50grains ffg to obtain 1357 fps and 716 ft lbs using a .490 diameter, 175 grain lead ball (are they all pretty standard in weight?) I have some lead balls but I dont know the weight but I know they are for the gun... Should I weigh them or does the size kind of dictate the weight?

FYI it says 110 grains is the max.

Thanks.
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Old February 1, 2012, 02:18 PM   #33
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Gettin the cart before the horse !!

My apologies for not posting this sooner but was trying to address your initial questions. Basically, you have layers of neglect inside that bore and may take some time to get down to the actual bore. I have seen some real wrecks that surprisingly came back, in pretty good shape. Then there are some that are long gone. .....
On and unknown barrel such as yours, this is how I address the fix:
1) Remove the barrel, plug the nipple vent and mount in a vertical position with the breech end in a Large jar. I do this in my outside shop bench.
2) Full the bore with mineral spirits to the muzzle and I never use water. You can allso use Ballistol ...
3) Plug the muzzle end with a rubber stopper and let it site for a minimum of three (3) days, at week would be better.
4) At the end of the soak, I remove the muzzle plug and start working a bronze brush, starting at the muzzle and using short strokes, slowly advance the brush down the muzzle. I use one of my poly range-rods.
Feel the brush/Rod as it will indicate the rough areas along the way.
Repeat this process two or three times or whatever it take as long as you can feel that you are making progress.
5) Remove the barrel from it temp. mount and pour out your dirty mineral spirits.
6) Remount and start swabbing with a swab or clean patches...
7) Now you are ready for a good inspection. I have a number of bore lights that I can drop down, to the breech end a look down the bore. At this time, you want to look for pitting. .....
A good source of bore lights, are Bobber lights that you can buy for about $3.00 in the fishing section of Walmart.
8) From there, you can best determine what your next step will be. I have some slightly pitted bores but but your performance will hurt. ...

Be Safe !!!
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Old February 1, 2012, 02:20 PM   #34
Garyson1311
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I do want to order a new nipple. Is there a certain part number I need or how will I know im buying the right stuff.

Will something like this work?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thompson-Cen...item336fcd728c
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Old February 1, 2012, 02:22 PM   #35
Garyson1311
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Makes sense, Pahoo. Thankyou for the insight. Maybe I was jumping the gun (lol) Definitely going to try and get my hands dirty tonight with this thing. Plese let me know about what nipples I need. Thanks
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Old February 1, 2012, 02:44 PM   #36
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Factory link

You don't have to get these from TC but here is there link and Specs. You can buy these from just about any place, This is still current material. If you lived in town, I'd gladly give you one of mine. .....

https://secure.tcarms.com/store/repl...t-no-7070.html

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Old February 1, 2012, 02:56 PM   #37
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Good Call !!!

Quote:
Also, old Indian trick... if you ever run a dry patch and it sticks your ram-rod, pour #13 solvent down bore and let patch soak up solution. Will make things a little less sticky and easier to remove.
Excellent point and that is exactly what we did on one stuck rod. You think that pulling a ball is bad, a stuck rod will make that look easy. When you work up your supplies, make sure you include some good old #13, BoreShine or equal. .....

Be Safe !!!
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Old February 1, 2012, 06:54 PM   #38
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Quote:
I do want to order a new nipple
Notice the thread size specs, ( 1/4" x 28) on the nipple. After you remove the old nipple, you can get a 1/4" x 28 tap and clean the threads up in the breach plug where the nipple threads. Careful not to cross-thread.
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Old February 1, 2012, 11:28 PM   #39
Garyson1311
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You guys have been a great resource. Thankyou so much for responses.

So I got some good news! I think that issue I was having with a blockage in my barrel has subsided.. Maybe I pulled out whatever was in it but the rod goes in fine now AND I am now getting air coming from the nipple. (I'm getting the whoosh sound now!) I also used a bore light and it seems pretty clear aside from some slight speckles of rust here and there. Definite step in the right direction!
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Old February 3, 2012, 02:45 PM   #40
Garyson1311
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Just wanted to give an update.. Soaked barrel in breakfree for 2 days and have gotten ALOT of the corrosion out of the barrel. No more stuck rods! I have a new nipple on order but the existing nipple was removed and cleaned, along with the spot under then nipple. Bore is quite a bit cleaner and I can hear a whoosh of air every time I push the rod down it. Whats next? Give it a shot?!
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Old February 3, 2012, 07:36 PM   #41
shortwave
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Have you used a light to see what the inside of the bore looks like?

What ramrod do you intend on using?

A wise investment would be to purchase a nice 'range-rod'. Someone had earlier posted of using a fiberglass rod. Don't think I'd use fiberglass as it's hard on the lands of the riflings. A regular range-rod for bp guns are coated as to not wear on the bore.

I would not use the original wooden rod to load any more then I had to and when I did use it, grip the rod close to the bbl.(barrel) outlet and push load in a little at a time. The old wooden rods are known to break and it's easy to run the wood through your hand, making for a less than enjoyable outing.

Also, at this point, you know there's no charge in the bore right!

Take your ramrod and put it in the bbl.(barrel). Mark the end of the ramrod right where it exits bore. I use a knife and score around the ramrod. For future use, you can always know if there's a charge or not by this mark.

You also need to purchase a nipple pick to clean out the hole in the nipple. I've found that torch tip cleaners you can buy at most Lowes, Menards store work well or you can get a regular nipple pick from your LGS.
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Old February 3, 2012, 07:52 PM   #42
Garyson1311
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Have you used a light to see what the inside of the bore looks like? Yes I have used a bore light and I dropped some of those walmart fishing bobber lights in to check it. It looks clean and the rod and cleaning pad pass through without issue now

What ramrod do you intend on using? I only have the original wood one but can definitely get another one.



Also, at this point, you know there's no charge in the bore right! Yes there is no charge, the rod drops all the way in (as specified in the owners manual, and ive put boiling water in the barrel, as well as soaked it with break free, as well as ran cleaning patches through until it came out clean.)

I am definitely going to mark the rod for both loaded and clean.

I will purchase a nipple pick. For now its been flushed with break free and I used a small pipe cleaner to get as much of the crap out as I could.
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Old February 3, 2012, 08:20 PM   #43
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Quote:
Don't think I'd use fiberglass as it's hard on the lands of the riflings.
Fiberglass is harder than steel these days? I guess after 30 some odd years my Enfield is a smooth bore from using nothing but a STEEL ramrod.
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Old February 3, 2012, 08:34 PM   #44
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Fiberglas® isn't harder than steel, but it is abrasive. It can damage the lands, especially since they're more flexible than steel and can rub against the bore more easily.
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Old February 3, 2012, 08:47 PM   #45
shortwave
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Very true mykeal ...

...and that's why decent fiberglass rods are polymer coated.

Raw fiberglass rods should only be used with a bore guide.

Last edited by shortwave; February 3, 2012 at 08:53 PM.
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Old February 3, 2012, 08:49 PM   #46
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Wood ramrods can embed dirt and grit and it works like a lapping compound wearing the bore right at the most critical point for accuracy, the muzzle.
That's why you see nearly all serious target shooters load their muzzleloaders with a stainless steel rod equipped with a bore guide to keep the ramrod from rubbing on the muzzle.

Lubed or dry patches, it's your choice. A lot of target shooters use dry patches, but they also clean the bore between shots instead of depending on a lubed patch to keep the bore clean.
Lube can be anything from bear grease to spit. It will take trial and error to find the most accurate load. Extremely tight ball/patch combos aren't always more accurate than the looser and easier to load combos, however, if you can start it with your thumb, it's probably too loose.

After shooting it, look for your used patches, usually about 15-20 ft in front of the gun, and study them, looking for holes burned in them or tears. I have a TC Patriot muzzle loading pistol that's very accurate but if I try to shoot .440 or .445 roundballs out of it, it burns holes in the patches. If I load super tight .451 balls, everything is okay. These balls are actually bigger than the bore and it takes a mallet and a short starter to get the ball and patch started, once started, I can easily ram the ball down to the powder with a short steel pistol cleaning rod. I think TC just cut really deep grooves in this gun's barrel and it needs a ball that tight in order to seal the bore. Blowby is what blows holes in patches.
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Old February 3, 2012, 11:50 PM   #47
Garyson1311
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Hey guys, I just wanted to take a second to thank all of you guys for your help. You turned a guy whos never even touched a muzzleloader into someone you was able to diagnose, fix, and bring a life back to a hawken that hasnt been shot or cleaned in who knows how long. After using elbow grease, multiple solvents and liquids that you guys suggested, having a few long nights, a bathroom that smells of breakfree, a wife that made me clean said bathroom, and some instilled confidence of knowing what parts to clean and what to look for (again, thanks to you guys), I felt as if it was time to hit the range. Using some supplies that my buddy had for his gun (which are the supplies I will be buying, thanks to shortwave for being kind enough to PM me a list!) and buying some powder (my gun shop only had 777), I set up at my gun club and began using the loading procedure that you guys taught me. I decided to start with a 50 grain load of 777 (which equates little more than 55g black powder), made sure to check my ramrod length before a charge and after a full charge, set my cci cap, and BOOM! She fired like a beauty! I even hit the target (granted it was only like 50 feet but hey!) I fired her about 5 more times moving up to an 80g charge. I can honestly say that was alot of fun and after I get done typing this post, I will be ordering some balls, a new rod, patches, etc! (I better get enough to give some to my buddy since I mooched his stuff!) I really wanted to give you guys an update on the status of this project but more importantly, take a second to thank all of you guys for your help. Its really amazing what i've learned in a few days. Whats even more amazing is that you guys, who are not paid or forced to help were willing to take time out of your busy lives to respond and help some guy youve never met, and probably never will meet. If any of you are ever in the high desert area of southern california, I owe you a beer! (After we hit the range, of course!)

Thanks a million,
Gary

p.s. Dont think you've gotten rid of me yet, i'll be on these forums now that you guys have gotten me addicted to muzzleloading! (I cant say my wife will like you though!)
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Old February 4, 2012, 12:28 AM   #48
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So glad things went well for you and you had a good time.

Have fun and enjoy!
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Old February 4, 2012, 09:54 AM   #49
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Glad it worked out for you.

If you live reasonably close to Phoenix, AZ, you might want to schedule time to check out the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association's Western Nationals held on Feb 29 through March 5 this year.

You'll see a lot of stuff that you can't buy at Cabelas or Bass Pro in trader row.

http://www.nmlra.org/shootsDetails.asp?cat=NMLRA Sponsored&ID=188
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Old February 4, 2012, 10:24 AM   #50
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I'm glad the ole rifle came back to life for ya!! The Muzzleloading bug has a MEAN sting don't it???? I've been shooting for as long as I can remember but now that I've got into this, I rarely shoot the cartridge guns, only to practice with my CCW pistol.
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