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Old March 4, 2012, 09:23 PM   #26
orthosophy
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9 o'clock high! The shoulder rig! Some day that may change. I'm seriously considering 6 IWB with a smaller gun. The only thing is I've read about guys who fell or were felled and damaged themselves
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Old March 5, 2012, 08:45 AM   #27
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Without knowing the kind of gun you'd be carrying it makes it problematic.

If you're just sitting there it's unlikely. It's when other things happen that accidents can happen. Remember, we should never rely on a safety mechanism in lieu of muzzle and trigger discipline.

If your mode of carry points the muzzle at some portion of your anatomy, with reliance on a safety mechanism to prevent a discharge, that's considered an unsafe method of carry.

A gun at 2 o'clock with the muzzle pointed at the thigh, for example. But if the gun is at 1-2 o'clock in a crossdraw format, with the muzzle clear of the body, that's considered safe (not withstanding the deficiencies of crossdraw carry).
Come on, Bill.

The gun or manual safety device does not matter. I was responding to what I saw posted, which was a questionable statement.

I can have my Glock AIWB at 2:00 and be perfectly safe. As long as I'm not playing with the trigger, and I CAN'T while it's properly holstered, there is no chance of a discharge. That's what I'm saying.

I can remember only one recent story about a gun discharging while IN the holster, and that was from a defective leather holster folding into the trigger guard.

Have you heard anything else about a discharge of a gun while in the holster. IN the holster, as was posted above.
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Old March 5, 2012, 12:23 PM   #28
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I prefer the appendix (2 O’clock) carry method as well. Everyone is different though. Each carry area (1-6) has its own advantage and disadvantage.

I like the 2 O’clock position because it is comfortable and is easiest for “ME” to access/draw quickly if I am standing or seated. It is however an inherently dangerous carry method only because of the location of the muzzle when seated. You will have to experiment with different holsters and carry positions to see what suites you best. How important is comfort, access, and carry location to you?

Here is my setup:

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Old March 5, 2012, 12:45 PM   #29
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It is however an inherently dangerous carry method because of the location of the muzzle when seated.
Disagree. It's no different from having a pen or pocketknife or any other tool in your pocket. It will not magically go off by itself.
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Old March 5, 2012, 01:15 PM   #30
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For deep concealment I carry right at about the 4:30 position. When I wear my Serpa I carry at about the 2:30 position. When I am in uniform and at work I carry at a 2:30 as well. The 2:30 position is just as easy to guard with your arm, but places the gun slightly forward for an easier draw. With the Serpa it is one fluid motion of upward/forward motion and sweep of the retention mechanism. With my level 3 it is a upward/forward sweep with a quick push down/roll forward with my thumb to draw. At the 2:30 position the muzzle is not flashing my leg, it's just far enough back.
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Old March 5, 2012, 04:02 PM   #31
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I like the 4:30. I would find it hard to sit with a gun at the 2. Standing all day yes, but I can put my gun at the 4:30 and carry all day... sitting, standing ect. No such thing as a AD they are all ND IMO...
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Old March 5, 2012, 04:12 PM   #32
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The roof over my tool shed would never allow me to carry at 2 OClock. 1 too many brewskees.
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Old March 5, 2012, 05:43 PM   #33
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Seriously? Do you really consider this for even a second?
I'm with the gang on this one. When I carry a firearm, I like to keep the muzzle pointed AWAY from me. Call me superstitious.

I keep hearing the NRA in my ear with...

#1 ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
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Old March 5, 2012, 07:38 PM   #34
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Seems to me that the cool trainers are all carrying around 2:00 these days.

If I was comfortable carrying there, I would. I just can't get comfortable with it, though. My concealed carry guns are usually larger sized, and it just doesn't work for me. So I stay with around 3:30 or so, it give me a good balance of concealability, comfort and ease of draw.
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Old March 6, 2012, 02:30 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by AH.74
Have you heard anything else about a discharge of a gun while in the holster. IN the holster, as was posted above.
Yes, two incidents, but not while sitting down.
An area LEO was off duty and Christmas shopping with his wife. In a crowded toy store (~9 days before Christmas) a group of teen thugs in the store grabbed several purses and pushed through the crowd. The officer, in his words, said he was shoved hard and twisted to avoid falling on two small children. That "save" of the kids caused him to fall against a peg-board rack. A narrow steel peg managed to exert enough force to push the leather of his holster against the Glock's trigger and cause a discharge. Fortunately, his body position ensured that the .45 round went down and into the merchandise gondola. He suffered some minor injuries to his "glutus maximus" and shallow lacerations from the other pegs at the end cap display.

Around '86, a BMW K-100 rider was rear ended while stopped in Nevada. David's 1960's Colt 1911 discharged because the Audi struck him from the rear with the C&L Colt in a horizontal shoulder holster. Impact around 42 mph was severe enough that the bike, rider and gun moved forward, but the floating firing pin missed the memo, so it stood still until it struck the primer. NHP confirmed the gun was still holstered, cocked & locked with the strap between the hammer and FP The Audi had a nice .45 hole in the windshield and a similar hole in the dash. The driver was not hurt and the bullet stayed in the dash. David fared worse however. He made contact with the bike's seat, trunk and saddlebags, the Audi's fender, hood, the pavement and the curb. Today he can still walk with the aid of a cane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AH.74
Disagree. It's no different from having a pen or pocketknife or any other tool in your pocket. It will not magically go off by itself.
Generally a true statement if we emphasize by itself.

But a gun worn on the body is not isolated and "by itself". The human body is dynamic and moves. It bends, twists & moves. The body encounters external forces from time to time, such as bumping a table, chair or car door. We stand up and sit down often, get in and out of cars often. We carry things at or near waist level, such as grocery sacks. We run up and down stairs which can loosen small guns in their holsters. We may engage in a fight, struggle or wrestling match before needing to draw the gun. We can trip and fall down. Some pistols can (and have) had their safeties disengaged just from daily activities. Once that happens, if the muzzle points to a body part, injury and/or disaster lurk close by.
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Old March 6, 2012, 08:40 AM   #36
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I have a friend that works for the local PD and he was telling me on sunday that one of the departments off duty officers managed to have in accidental discharge of his ruger lcp in his back pocket and cause minor damage to his gluteus maximus
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Old March 6, 2012, 08:55 AM   #37
AH.74
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I'm with the gang on this one. When I carry a firearm, I like to keep the muzzle pointed AWAY from me. Call me superstitious.

I keep hearing the NRA in my ear with...

#1 ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
I'm unaware of "the gang" reaching a consensus on this. These conversations have also been had before, many times.

While I fully believe and support the rules, there is also a point where you have to draw a line in the sand.

I believe the rule above mainly applies to guns held and handled, and which have an actual possibility of being fired. As such, where do you draw the line? Do you not wear shoulder holsters because they point the gun at people behind you? Do you not go above the first floor of a building because a belt holster points the gun at the floor and hence at people below the floor? How about a gun rack in the back of a truck- they point the gun at anything next to the truck. No one would ever carry IWB and especially not AIWB.

And that beat goes on. How far are you willing to go with it?

Quote:
I have a friend that works for the local PD and he was telling me on sunday that one of the departments off duty officers managed to have in accidental discharge of his ruger lcp in his back pocket and cause minor damage to his gluteus maximus
I'd be interested in hearing the details. I could speculate that his finger went inside the trigger guard as he was attempting to take it out of the pocket. Although with the long trigger pull I would wonder why he didn't catch it and stop before it reached the break point. Can you possibly get the specifics?

Bill- don't you think both of those examples are on the extreme side of things and unlikely to happen to your average person carrying with safe gear?

Quote:
But a gun worn on the body is not isolated and "by itself". The human body is dynamic and moves. It bends, twists & moves. The body encounters external forces from time to time, such as bumping a table, chair or car door. We stand up and sit down often, get in and out of cars often. We carry things at or near waist level, such as grocery sacks. We run up and down stairs which can loosen small guns in their holsters. We may engage in a fight, struggle or wrestling match before needing to draw the gun. We can trip and fall down. Some pistols can (and have) had their safeties disengaged just from daily activities. Once that happens, if the muzzle points to a body part, injury and/or disaster lurk close by.
If you're going to go this far in your interpretation, see my comments above- are you going to isolate yourself from civilization? If you're truly worried about these things happening, stay home or just don't ever carry a gun out in public. There is reasonable, and there is reasonable. How far are you going to go?
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Old March 6, 2012, 10:26 AM   #38
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the off duty officer told my friend that he was getting ready to get into his truck and he had it in his blackhawk pocket holster and he went to take the holster out of his right rear pocket to put in the center console of his truck before he got in the truck when trying to remove the gun and holster, the holster became lodged in his rear pocket he tugged on it when doing so it caused the lcp to go off...... I believe when he was trying to remove the pistol his finger engaged the trigger causing him to have a negligent discharge... but that's just my opinion im sure hes learned his lesson now tho
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Old March 7, 2012, 05:50 AM   #39
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AH.74 - You asked.

I'm responding to your comments, to wit:

Quote:
Explain to me how a discharge is possible if I'm sitting and my gun is holstered AIWB.
To use your rhetorical logic, if you're just sitting there, then you're not actually doing anything, but then, that can hardly be called "carrying" either.

Quote:
I can have my Glock AIWB at 2:00 and be perfectly safe. As long as I'm not playing with the trigger, and I CAN'T while it's properly holstered, there is no chance of a discharge. That's what I'm saying.
You're the first person to use the acronym "AIWB" and I'm not getting the "A" or how it's significantly different than "IWB". Maybe I'm missing something.

However, you insist that your Glock is "perfectly safe" because, simply "it's properly holstered". I'm sure that officer Christmas shopping never thought his gun would discharge either. Yes, we do accept some risk, but only after consciously and carefully evaluating it. But to blindly state that a gun will not [ever] go off in a holster is a delusion.

Again, this gets back to the real world where the gun is attached to a body which is in frequent motion. Some of those motions may allow a safety to be disengaged, leaving the wearer at higher risk. I've experienced it first hand. Some subsequent event -- like falling against a pegboard or being pushed into a dense hedge -- may then exert enough force through the holster to move the trigger. Those are not terribly extreme incidents, IMO. I've seen a fair number of altercations end up in bushes, hedges, barbed wire and rocky highway shoulders. It doesn't take a mathematician to figure out the odds of something snagging the trigger are not astronomical.

What is "safe gear"? I prefer a thumb break holster for the retention security and most are made of quality leather. Others eschew them as "slow" and unnecessary with tension screw adjustments and boned holsters. Open top holsters may be fine for some and fine for some applications, but not for any kind of strenuous physical activity or being in a crowd of people.[1] To me, safe means Glocks[2] in Kydex or thermoplastic holsters; or holsters with a hard shield around the trigger area.



1. With an unloaded gun, climb four flights of stairs urgently. At the top, reverse direction and scrambled down the stairs as fast as you can safely. Odds are 2-3 in guns will fall out before the bottom of the stairs or be so loose it can be plucked out with two fingers.
2. And Smith & Wesson's M&P pistols without an external safety.
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Old March 7, 2012, 06:38 AM   #40
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AIWB

Appendix
Inside (the)
Waist
Band
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Old March 7, 2012, 09:33 AM   #41
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Blackfeather- thank you. This is not a new term and is frequently used.

Quote:
To use your rhetorical logic, if you're just sitting there, then you're not actually doing anything, but then, that can hardly be called "carrying" either.
Bill, you're not making sense. What is this supposed to mean? If I'm in my truck and have my gun APPENDIX IWB, I'm not actually carrying? Really. I have to actually be in motion to be carrying according to your definitions?

I sit down at my desk and suddenly I'm not really carrying. Right.

An officer getting into a scrum and being pushed into something which compromises his holster is hardly your everyday situation. It is not something you can plan for other than using good, safe gear.

Good, safe gear means something of high quality and NOT DEFECTIVE. The example I used- did you happen to see pictures of the holster that person was using? It was clearly worn- it had a dangerous crease in it which was the fold point causing the ND. Very evident that he should have known the holster had become defective and should have been put out of use and really thrown away.

I am not blindly stating anything. But using the most extreme examples you can think of doesn't support your case. A rider getting hit from behind, and his 1911 going off? Hardly your everyday, average situation. In your everyday, average situation a properly holstered gun is not going to discharge. It really is as simple as that. It happens all over the world- properly holstered guns not going off.

The majority of ND's happen when guns are OUT of the holster, held in the hand.
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Old March 7, 2012, 10:32 AM   #42
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AIWB may be common terminology in your circles, but this thread is the first time I had ever seen/heard it. I was able to noodle what it stood for based on the context, but like I said, never seen it before.

I tend to fall into AH.74's camp on this topic. There is much hand wringing about guns going off "accidentally" but the bottom line is, they are inert chunks of metal and plastic, if handled properly the odds of them going bang when you don't want them to is infinitesimally small.
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Old March 7, 2012, 12:52 PM   #43
output
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC Rob
AIWB may be common terminology in your circles, but this thread is the first time I had ever seen/heard it.
It is common enough for me to know what it is and I never had to Google it. I have seen it referenced more times than I can count even here on TFL (Thefiringline.com) Conduct a quick search here on this board and see how many results come up. I just did it and there were four pages of results. Back to the topic please.

I agree with AH.74. Almost every, if not every ND that I have read about has happened outside of a holster or has been caused by a defective holster of some sort. I have not read about a Glock, M&P, or similar modern day designed firearm discharging while it was in a quality holster. That is why I am comfortable carrying AIWB (when I can legally of course.)

I mentioned that it is inherently more dangerous because of the location of the muzzle. I am not sure how to articulate exactly what I mean though. In my mind, anytime a firearm is pointed at any part of my body (even if I am carrying it) that situation is inherently more dangerous than it was before the muzzle was pointed at me. Holster, no holster, etc…

I tried around 20+ holsters before I settled on AIWB and it was the last carry method that I tried. I feels comfortable and gives me the perfect amount of conceal-ability, access, etc... Your mileage might vary.
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Old March 7, 2012, 10:39 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by AH.74
An officer getting into a scrum and being pushed into something which compromises his holster is hardly your everyday situation. It is not something you can plan for other than using good, safe gear.
Oh, I see now... it's only everyday occurrences you're worried about. Or is it that you're only worried about incidents that compromise the holster? I'm confused. The BMW motorcycle accident was to illustrate that the weapon can discharge even locked in its holster if the right force is applied. You may think that event unlikely, but consider a perp attempting a strong, hard kick to your gonads and just barely missing. The toe of his boot catches the edge of the muzzle. Can he kick hard enough for the FP to compress the spring? Do you want to find out? How about slipping on icy steps or taking a fall down a flight of stairs? Could several sharp impacts discharge a pistol?

You're right as far as part of the equation goes. Slide a gun properly into a safe holster and, notwithstanding an internal malfunction, it should never discharge when no external forces act upon it.

My point is that everyday movements can disengage the safety, leaving the wearer unknowingly exposed to higher danger. It could possibly discharge if he grabs for it in a hurry... or if he slips and falls on those icy steps. I've had the safety disengage on both a 1911 and a "Walther style" slide-mounted safety from nothing more unusual than spending a day running errands. Not what I want to have pointed at my femoral artery (or other important parts).

I grew up the son of an aerospace reliability engineer, repeatedly hearing my fathers say Anything man-made will fail and usually in some way the design engineers never anticipated. When it came time to carry a firearm for a living, his advice was to never let the muzzle point at my body while relying on safety mechanisms for protection.

People still have the freedom to make their own choices regarding holster placement and muzzle discipline. We should all weigh the risks and vulnerabilities to each method of carry before making a decision. Pretending that a holstered gun is "perfectly safe" and will never go off is to ignore history and reality.
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Old March 8, 2012, 10:38 AM   #45
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I really don't know where to start, Bill. You seem to be grasping at straws to support your argument. I don't think that's reasonable.

Yes, the human body twists and contorts under normal movement. That's why good gear to secure your equipment and keep retention is important- so your gear doesn't become compromised.

A modern handgun which is in proper condition will not go off when dropped. Even falling down stairs. And are you really worried about being kicked hard enough to cause your 1911 to go off? And regarding that- is it common for 1911's to have "free-floating firing pins?" I'm not familiar with that platform so honestly don't know. If it is, that's another reason I'm not interested in them.

I have chosen guns with operating systems specifically not having manual safeties so there is one less thing to worry about. But if you don't have gear which will prevent a manual safety from being deactivated during normal daily activity, you should get gear that works better. Or get guns without safeties.

And if I did carry guns with manual safeties, I think I would make it a part of daily routine to check the status and not assume it's always activated. "Unknowingly" doesn't work with a person responsibly carrying their gun. It's their business to know.

Everyday occurrences- those are ones that you and I may find ourselves in that are not to the extreme, like the ones you keep coming up with. A perp kicking you in the balls and hitting the muzzle and causing your gun to go off? Really?
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Old March 27, 2012, 09:17 PM   #46
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Quote:
My point is that everyday movements can disengage the safety, leaving the wearer unknowingly exposed to higher danger....
It happens on occasion with my 1911 as well. It bothers me enough to check it at least a few times a day, even though I realize the gun has other safeties. Also I can't help but feel glad the gun is generally pointed at only a tiny fraction of my butt.
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Old March 29, 2012, 08:10 AM   #47
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I spent a lot of time in Northern Ireland where we often moved around covertly in a wide variety of military tasks, where civvies and unmarked cars were the norm. I carried a Browning Hi-Power during one tour and then a SIG P226; having tried most different kinds of holster I always prefered a standard or high ride holster on my right hip (3 o'clock) and the magazine holder (with 2 spare mags) on the opposite side at 10 o'clock.

The nice thing about having your holster at 3 o'clock is that it stays put whether you are getting in and out of a car, or are walking around a lot. That way I always knew where my pistol would be and muscle memory took my hand straight to it every time. Simarily the magazines are in the same place, so when I reload I don't have to think about where the magazines are - they stay in the same place each time.

When you need your weapon in a hurry, the last thing you need is to fumble around for it.

Also your arm over the holster helps to conceal it and retain it in a crowded place, as it will prevent a member of the public bumping into you and realising that you are carrying.

I'm bemused by the suggestion that items of clothing or anything should induce a negligent discharge when you reholster; the only thing that makes a pistol go off is your finger on the trigger! Anyone who isn't reholstering with their finger outside the trigger guard, pointing down the frame, is badly trained and looking for somewhere to have an accident.

Firearms safety isn't about external factors. It's all about properly trained people who are careful and know what they are doing; forget all the safety features on your weapon, forget about grip safety, the thing that makes it to 'bang' is your finger squeezing the trigger.

That index finger is the ultimate safety device and 'you' control it.
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Old March 31, 2012, 09:13 AM   #48
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What if, what if, what if. Cut through all the B.S. and carry where you're most comfortable.
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Old March 31, 2012, 07:53 PM   #49
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Tough crowd here tonight. Ye old pantaloons must be a little snug and bunched up.
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Old April 1, 2012, 03:28 PM   #50
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i like to carry at 4 or 5 oclock with a serious forward cant, almost horizontal, or with a super high ride clip holster so the gun is straight up and down but most of it is above my belt line. They both hide well and are easy to get to, and arent a pain when i sit down.
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