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Old January 25, 2012, 08:22 PM   #1
12GaugeShuggoth
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Knife to a gunfight

I'm sure all of us have heard it before: Don't bring a knife to a gunfight. Then again, what if a knife is all you have?

This was a story from several months ago, got quite a bit of air time on the local news. Basically, two bad guys posing as FBI decided to rob a Food Lion. After placing bombs (which turned out to be fake) on several female employees, one man jumped in to action using the only weapon he had, a knife.

http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/crime/f...y-and-shooting

http://hampton.wtkr.com/news/news/52...ells-his-story

I know one of them ended up getting caught, not sure about the other one though. I only wonder how things might have gone if the vendor had been CC'ing a firearm, and had the option of shooting the dirtbags instead of using his knife. I know some people might say he just escalated the situation...... maybe, maybe not. What I do know is not a lot of people would have had the guts to do what this guy did, and personally I think the guy is a bad mamma jamma.

Thoughts? Opinions? .....dare I say it, tactical discussions ?
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Old January 25, 2012, 10:38 PM   #2
BlackFeather
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This is likely to be closed quickly, or turn into quite the nasty debate as many people have different opinions.

I personally carry a knife, or three. It all depends. I would rather have a nice large fixed blade ready for action but it isn't always an option. Sometimes I go with a smaller fixed blade. Usually everyone carries a folder, I try to do the same. I can't carry a firearm in CA. I like to have a knife weak side just in case, and I practice for it. Knives are good tools for cutting someone off of you if they are stronger, choking you from behind, holding you down.

The main issues are:

1. Distance to the threat must be close and no one wants to be there.

2. One must know what they are doing and have empty hand skills to assist.

3. One must know 100% they are in the right, knives are more likely to make you look like a criminal.

4. While guns aren't man stopping machines, knives can be worse.

5. Diseases that spread through blood can get to you easier.

Anyone attempting to use a knife against someone with a gun needs to be close and needs to stay away from the muzzle. This should be practiced and drilled, not just alone but with partners. The knife you carry needs to be sharp, and hopefully opens easily and locks well. If you have to use a folder, practice opening it under stress. Don't worry so much about getting the weapon out, transition from empty hands when appropriate. Against a knife, another knife is a bad idea.

I'm a bit sick, I hope I got my points across. All the important ones anyway.
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Old January 25, 2012, 10:50 PM   #3
12GaugeShuggoth
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Quote:
This is likely to be closed quickly, or turn into quite the nasty debate as many people have different opinions
Well, if people can't remain civil about it and decide to be ugly, then by all means I hope the Mods close it; my intent wasn't to start any ssiping matches or anything.

Quote:
I can't carry a firearm in CA.............I'm a bit sick
My best wishes on both counts, though sadly I suspect only one of them will get better in the near future. Thanks for the input, you definitely sound like you've put some thought in to your carry setup.
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Old January 25, 2012, 11:07 PM   #4
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Knife fights are ugly, bloody, and quick, if you think your going to walk away without bleeding, then think again. I'll stick with my .45 thank you
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Old January 25, 2012, 11:30 PM   #5
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We need to remember....the Tueller Drill works both ways.....knife users can learn as much from it as gun users.....
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Old January 26, 2012, 12:02 AM   #6
Deaf Smith
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I notice all the knife .vs. gun threads have the knife guy with knife in hand, but guy with gun has it in holster concealed and is clueless the knife guy is gonna attack.

What if the knife guy had it in sheath and the gun guy had his gun in his hand? What range is the gun guy dangerous to the knife guy? (answer, ANY RANGE!)

And what if both have their weapons out? (Yep, gun guy more a threat.)

And if both have to draw for their weapons? (Yup, gun guy more a threat again.)

And one more thing.. why does the gun guy HAVE to use the gun? In Krav Maga they teach to front kick any attacker that is advancing on them as a valid technique to stop them in their tracks and then follow on with other hand-feet attacks.

Seems like people are trying to force this knife .vs. gun to presume there is only one response allowed.

And life is not like that.

YOU are the weapon, all else is incidental.

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

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Old January 26, 2012, 12:10 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egor20
Knife fights are ugly, bloody, and quick, if you think your going to walk away without bleeding, then think again. I'll stick with my .45 thank you
Knife fights are fantasy, but knowing how to deal with one will save you faster than your .45 will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12GaugeShuggoth
My best wishes on both counts, though sadly I suspect only one of them will get better in the near future. Thanks for the input, you definitely sound like you've put some thought in to your carry setup.
I don't mind CA at all, Oregon is only slightly better. It's only a cold, thanks for the wishes. My carry set up is mostly based on what I can afford and carry. Tough times in these last couple years.
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Old January 26, 2012, 12:24 AM   #8
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wait...did somone at the beggining of this thread say they carry a steaknife? smh.
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Old January 26, 2012, 12:31 AM   #9
12GaugeShuggoth
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Quote:
Knife fights are fantasy, but knowing how to deal with one will save you faster than your .45 will.
I forget where I first heard it, something along the lines of a knife fight has no winners; one person goes to the hospital and the other goes to the morgue. Perhaps a bit dramaticized but I think the message is right, only the extremely lucky and/or experienced have much of a chance of leaving such an encounter completely unscathed. I came very close to being stabbed once and it was an eye opener to see how quickly it came to that.


Quote:
I notice all the knife .vs. gun threads
FWIW, I'm not trying to start a knife vs gun discussion, or an anything vs anything for that matter. I just thought the man acted beyond what many people would be able or willing to do since most of us don't have the training or luck to take on multiple hostiles (including a gunman) with a knife and make it out (relatively) safely. Perhaps I should've chosen a different thread title......my mistake.


Quote:
Seems like people are trying to force this knife .vs. gun to presume there is only one response allowed.

And life is not like that.

YOU are the weapon, all else is incidental.

Improvise, adapt, overcome
I definitely agree, over reliance on the tool takes a person away from the total weapon. I think many people however, including myself at times, are simply far more confident in their abilities (and chances) by having that tool available...whether it be a knife, baton, handgun, or what ever else a person has available.
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Old January 26, 2012, 12:58 AM   #10
BlackFeather
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The Tueller drill is more geared towards an officer arriving on scene. Not much in the way of knife defense, or even understanding a knife attack.

Deaf Smith is very right, you are the weapon. Weapons are just tools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12GaugeShuggoth
I forget where I first heard it, something along the lines of a knife fight has no winners; one person goes to the hospital and the other goes to the morgue.
That's a common phrase, along with "if you get into a knife fight, expect to be cut." It comes from movies and historical ideas that knives are dueling weapons and everyone will magically draw a knife and get into a stance. In reality, you'll likely get cut before you know it, then you'll have to defend what you perceive to be open hand attacks, finally, if you're lucky, you'll get away long enough to realize you're bleeding. Drawing any weapon won't be easy. This is why we always stress empty hand defense. If you know there's a weapon, run, don't duel.

I was attacked with a knife once, it barely went into my leg, instead of my stomach, and I hit him then ran. Drawing my own knife wasn't an option until I had already defended myself. Had I stuck around... ouch.

I practice to use a knife against impact weapons, multiple opponents, escaping holds, and against firearms. Knife against knife is practiced as well, but not expected. Some of it is for fun, some for defense. First and foremost is drawing the weapon. I keep rambling...
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Old January 26, 2012, 12:14 PM   #11
Frank Ettin
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If faced with a threat, you might need to work with whatever you have available. How it will turn out will depend on your will, your skill and your luck. Even with a gun, things might not work out well for you even if you have a gun -- if your skills aren't up to your problem.
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Old January 26, 2012, 01:36 PM   #12
8MM Mauser
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I find this story very interesting, thank you for sharing.
It is interesting how sometimes simply defending yourself is enough to dissuade a criminal from going through with their plan. It seems as though the second robber could have easily finished the knife wielding employee after he hit his leg, but he didn't, he ran away.
Interesting stuff...
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Old January 28, 2012, 07:22 PM   #13
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this is a good post, like probably most here i carry a knife but really have no clue how to use it other than your basic slash and stab stuff. I remember reading somewhere (and maybe its referenced in some of the drills mentioned) but the average person with a knife can cover 21 feet before the average joe can draw and put a pistol into play. Thats a longggg way when youre on the range looking it over. Id look into knife training if there was any remotely near me, but theres not.
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Old January 28, 2012, 07:56 PM   #14
Ruthless4christ
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Quote:
like probably most here i carry a knife but really have no clue how to use it
any martial arts/boxing/bar fighting background will help in a knife fight. take it the next step up and get some rubber trainers,

http://www.coldsteel.com/rubberknives.html
They are very helpful in self training for a real knife fight, but you do need a partner.
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Old January 28, 2012, 09:34 PM   #15
BlackFeather
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I would suggest getting trainers made for more "street" applicable scenarios. In other words, 3 to 4 inch blades. Large training knives instill a sense of safety at a distance, which isn't true. Most people don't carry around 12 inch knives either. Spyderco makes a great practice folder, there are other companies that make them but Spyderco seems to be about the standard. I prefer aluminum or other alloys to rubber, but it's a personal choice.

As for training, there are many videos out there and you'd be surprised at what you and a friend can learn from some basic drills and light sparring. Don't limit yourselves to knife on knife, try everything as well as accessing and deploying the blade from your back, stomach, and common holds. Just because what you do may vary from a "professional" doesn't make it bad, there are many styles out there that just aren't suited for reality. Two of these being the videos from Gunsite's Edged Weapons and Kelly McCann's Inside the Crucible.
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Old January 29, 2012, 02:19 PM   #16
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I heard a good quote today:
Quote:
The winner of a knife fight is the guy that goes to the hospital
I guess if I was unable to carry a gun I'd rather have a tazer but those would probably be illegal too. Then it would be a combo of pepper spray, an expandable baton (if even that were legal) and then a good knife.

But I think I'll just keep doing what I'm doing which is live in a state that lets me defend myself from criminals.
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Old February 2, 2012, 10:54 PM   #17
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always carry both, a good fighting knife as well as sidearm. Gives you options, as well as the ability to modulate the amount of force you intend to use/is practical at that time. My personal carry is a KaBar TDI with a sidearm at all times.
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Old February 3, 2012, 12:14 AM   #18
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I am always sorry to read these threads on firearm boards.

I have a CPL, and I carry a knife, however unlike 99% of the people posting opinions I train with both. Most years I will do a 2 day Force on Force or edge weapon class. That plus a martial arts background have given me a fair amount of confidence.

I also am lucky enough to be invited to a law enforcement training center several times a year to run through hundreds of rounds.

I have absolutely no desire to go toe to toe with a person with a knife, but given a case where I am confronted by a gun at close range, I would rather offer my wallet, while stepping close to the gun man, move inside the OODA loop and unstich as much of him as I can with my knife, rather than drawing attention by trying to draw my gun. (Besides he makes a great shield if there are more than 1 person when you have your back tight against his chest). Unless you have some Krav Maga training, most people are at a loss how to fight when somebody is inside their OODA loop.

Face the facts, a person in a gun fight with no training is mostly just a noise maker, and a person with a knife with no training is just looking to get hurt.
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Old February 3, 2012, 06:28 PM   #19
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"Face the facts, a person in a gun fight with no training is mostly just a noise maker, and a person with a knife with no training is just looking to get hurt." Old Wanderer.

Sir, I respectfully disagree. A person with no training, armed with a gun or knife is still VERY dangerous in my eyes, and worth avoiding, be they a good guy or a bad guy. A Dangerous weapon, even in the hands of a 10 year old with a strong will to survive, crazy, afraid or in an all out RAGE is still deadly, even if the youth is un-trained. A teenager or adult, is even more dangerous, due to increased size, strength and speed, and possibly drugs in the system or major mental health issues.

Once a fight starts, NOTHING is a sure thing, unless the bad guy is unarmed, and untrained... AND.... you are George Foreman!

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Old February 3, 2012, 07:21 PM   #20
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In fact, look at the American Rifleman magazine and the 'Armed Citizen' column.

HUGE number of 'untrained' people use guns to defend themselves quite well every year. And against knives to.

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