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Old January 30, 2012, 10:39 AM   #51
PTS1
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Bring enough gun my butt, bring enough skill.

Great comment! That really sums it up better than anything!
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Old January 30, 2012, 07:44 PM   #52
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Bring enough gun my butt, bring enough skill.
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Great comment! That really sums it up better than anything!
+2
When i read a thread like this one i'm reminded of a friend who often bragged of all the big game he killed. We went hog hunting at a wheatfield. The guy summarily shot a huge sow in the guts with his .300 Win Mag and someones magic bullet. The hog ran into a plum thicket. We kicked the sow out of the thicket and he shot her in the guts again. Finally after three or four shots we had a dead hog.

Then he wanted me to field dress his hog. Told him he could do it under instruction. The guy gagged and wretched at the stinking green goo as he gutted that hog. Strange, he never asked to hog hunt with me again.
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Old January 31, 2012, 01:30 AM   #53
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Bring enough gun my butt, bring enough skill.
exactly the point I've been trying to make.

growing up I knew a guy(for the sake of the story, we'll call him scooter) who claimed and argued vehemently that the 300 Win Mag was the greatest deer round ever designed and constantly bragged about the deer that his dad had killed with the rifle he now used. me and my hunting buddies always just smiled adn rolled our eyes because year after year me(using my dads 243) and my best friend(using his dads 30-30) got our deer with 2 or less well placed shots while scooter came back weekend after weekend with a story about the latest buck that he had shot that got away.
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Old January 31, 2012, 09:19 AM   #54
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The only ethical question is can YOU take the game as humainely as possible. 1 shot 1 kill.

Most of the bigger is better come from paid/compensated gun scribes who are schills for the manufactures. There was a certain gun writer whom I had a great deal of respect for. I respected him until I learned that he faked his data.

When asked what gun is best, I ask some simple questions: Do you hit what you shoot at? Does it put the animal on the ground? If the answer is yes then that it the gun for you.

As to target shooters not being good hunters, a good target shooter has the skills to dope wind. I remember a top target shooter who was basically forced into an antelope hunt. Point of Honor. They walked out on the hunt. A antelope was spotted out about 500 yds. He dropped into a proper sitting position. Fired 1 shot and dropped the animal. To my knowledge he never hunted again.

Marksmanship trumps caliber and hot air everyday.
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Old January 31, 2012, 11:34 AM   #55
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I've seen elk die with one shot from a .243, and I've seen Bighorn sheep die with one shot from a .300 win mag. There was a true story about a grizz atack in Cody during bow season where one hunter saved another with one shot from his Hoyt. Dude was lucky!

The most important thing in hunting is being prepared and knowing the laws. I don't really think one persons preferance for caliber is any better than the next. Heck, i saw a guy hunting antegoats with an SKS!

To each their own if they can make it work. Marksmanship and knowing your limits is the most important.

Happy hunting!
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Old January 31, 2012, 12:43 PM   #56
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In another thread here I expounded my thoughts that I no longer feel the need to handicap myself with a poor choice in guns and cartridge selection plays a part in that. But "the use enough gun" crap goes way over board. Magnumitus runs rampant today and it's amazing how cartridges that have proven themselves over time are no longer big enough. If I was going on an Elk hunt I'd probably swap out my .243 barrel for a 7mm-08, I use centerfires on predators not a .22M, I use a 12ga instead of a 20, use pointy bullets and guns that shoot them instead of classics like the .30-30 lever gun, etc etc.

But there is a line though and critters aren't armor plated.

LK
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Old January 31, 2012, 01:05 PM   #57
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If I could legally shoot deer with a .22 LR (under 75 yrds / head shot) I would do so and not waste so much money on ammo...But since I have to use bigger bullets to make P.E.T.A. and other animal nuts happy, that no animal suffers, I use these calibers on deer and if possible anything else I can hunt (large bodied animals) .243, .25-06, .270, 7mm-08, and my favorite .308. Why the hell carry something that's meant to kill Godzilla ???? Little guys I like my .17 hmr, .22lr .204 and .22-250. I did feed into some frenzies once upon a time of more gun "bigger the better". Now I know better and teach my boys the same.
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Old January 31, 2012, 01:11 PM   #58
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I know all the "long range" shooters are callin me a dipstick right now, but I know my ability(or lack thereof) requires me to get closer.
There's a cure for what ails you, and it is trigger time, in the field, or as close to "in the field" as you can get.
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Old January 31, 2012, 01:27 PM   #59
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I once found an old worn out dime store guitar at a place in which I was employed.


I fancied myself to be a guitar player when in reality I was a novice.


I made a comment that the guitar was crap and couldn't be played worth a darn.


Upon hearing this, and without saying a word, a coworker pulled some finger picks out of his pocket, put them on and commenced playing a real purdy classical guitar song.


Afterwards, I have always remember not to blame equipment for human shortcomings
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Old January 31, 2012, 01:38 PM   #60
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If one were hunting at a time when game was plentiful, seasons long, and hunters few he might use less than adequate cartridges.
However, the conditions today are much different, and during a hunt a person might get one chance under less than perfect conditions. In addition, no one is so good that they can always place the shot perfectly under field conditions.

Cartridges like the 30-30 and lesser ones have taken a lot of game. But if one is going to go to the effort and expense, and maybe get drawn once in years, it makes no sense to me to use less than an adequate cartridge. When you consider the expense of a hunt, other than local, I would buy another gun if I did not have one that was adequate.

We can argue the fine points as to what cartridge is adequate, but I would not hunt elk with 30-30 class of cartridges regardless of what your grandfather did.

If one wants to hunt with a muzzle loader then that is fine, but if you are going to hunt centerfire use an adequate cartridge.

Jerry
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Old January 31, 2012, 02:40 PM   #61
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Good point Jerry, as I hunt for free, I never thought of that angle.
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Old January 31, 2012, 02:54 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryM
If one were hunting at a time when game was plentiful, seasons long, and hunters few he might use less than adequate cartridges.
However, the conditions today are much different, and during a hunt a person might get one chance under less than perfect conditions. In addition, no one is so good that they can always place the shot perfectly under field conditions.
Well, I suppose it depends on what and where you're hunting. I have a friend who spends up to 1 month at a time in Colorado (the entire bow season) hunting elk. (He does it with a 47 pound draw bow too) 4 weeks is a lot of hunting.

Here in NY, I start deer hunting with a bow in mid-october and the season ends around December 20th. That's 2 months and a week of hunting. Between me and 2 other guys, we might shoot 9 deer in a bad year, 12-15 in a good one and we'll see a few dozen more.

A once-in-a-lifetime sheep hunt is one thing. "Hunting" is quite another.

Besides which, very few people actually hunt with "marginal" calibers. It's the PERCEPTION of inadequacy far more often than the reality.

Used to be that the 30-06 was practically a "magnum" cartridge. Now, it appears to be barely adequate for medium sized deer. I don't think it's the deer or the cartridge that's changed.
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Old February 1, 2012, 09:13 AM   #63
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If one were hunting at a time when game was plentiful, seasons long, and hunters few he might use less than adequate cartridges.
Because game is plentiful is an excuse to use an inadequate cartridge?

???

"There's lots of deer, so it's OK to wound a few, and not recover them..... never mind that they will takes weeks to die......"

Quote:
Besides which, very few people actually hunt with "marginal" calibers.
....Dunno .... I have seen more than one "moonscoped" AR in western NE during deer season ..... maybe that's just my perception, though ......
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Old February 1, 2012, 09:19 AM   #64
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I just read an article with pictures where all varieties of African large game were taken with a 30-06
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Old February 1, 2012, 10:30 AM   #65
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jimbob86, back when game was more plentiful, the critters were much less wary. At least, that's what I gather from writings from the 1800s. I guess that less wary = equals an easier approach to get within range of what we now consider marginal cartridges.

But my last mule deer was at maybe 25 yards, and I felt halfway guilty at using my '06. Shoulda been carrying a pistol.
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Old February 1, 2012, 11:26 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by JimBob86
....Dunno .... I have seen more than one "moonscoped" AR in western NE during deer season ..... maybe that's just my perception, though ......
I believe it IS a matter of perception.

For instance, I don't know many people who would proclaim a 357mag with a 10" barrel to be a marginal deer gun. It produces 1590fps with a 158gr slug for 887 ft/lbs.

The "mighty" 44mag with a 10 inch barrel produces right around 1200 ft/lbs.

A 223 with 55gr SPs can do 3,350fps from a 24" barrel, 1370ft/lbs, 20" barrel might be 3150, 1212 ft/lbs.

Now, that 223 only has about 1/2 the momentum of the 44mag at the muzzle but the sectional density is pretty close.

No doubt that 44mag load is going to blow right out the other side at any reasonable distance.... wasted energy.

Actually, I'd be surprised if the 223 didn't exit also, if you used a proper big game bullet at reasonable ranges but more of it's energy will be used IN the animal rather than the tree on the other side.

Also, keep in mind that while the 44mag and 223 are about equal at the muzzle, the 44 loses it's energy MUCH faster. By the time it's at 100 yards, the 44 is down to 825 ft/lbs, the 223 still at 1035.
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Old February 1, 2012, 11:46 AM   #67
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For instance, I don't know many people who would proclaim a 357mag with a 10" barrel to be a marginal deer gun. It produces 1590fps with a 158gr slug for 887 ft/lbs.
I am not many, but I'm one.

A .357 is a handgun round. All handgun rounds are underpowered, or they would require a stock to hold onto properly......

For western Nebraska, unless the shooter will discipline himself to keep all shots really short, then most pistols/revolvers or even carbines chambered for pistol cartridges are just not enough gun. True, I'm sure there are hot loaded .357's that out of a rifle barrel will rival a .30/30 ..... they still don't hold a candle to an honest to goodness hi-powered rifle......
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Old February 1, 2012, 11:55 AM   #68
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But my last mule deer was at maybe 25 yards, and I felt halfway guilty at using my '06. Shoulda been carrying a pistol.
- Art

I'm sure the -06 worked just fine.

"In all things important, Happiness is having enough."
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Old February 1, 2012, 12:18 PM   #69
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True enough.

Still, all cartridges have an effective range for any given task.

In terms of deer, that range is undoubtedly much less with a handgun that a 223 and much less for a 223 than most other rifles.

But, the general stance of the cartridge being "adequate" or "marginal" is a matter of assumptions. My assumptions are based on my own personal behavior because that's all I can guarantee. I would limit myself to appropriate ranges for whatever the cartridge might be. As such, there are very few "inadequate" or "marginal" cartridges.

I would (do), in most cases, choose a cartridge that WASN'T the limiting factor in my hunting but sometimes I don't. My 15" Encore Pro Hunter in 7mm-08 limits me to 100 yards or so in most cases, not because of the cartridge but because it's hard to aim.

The button buck that dropped where he stood at 40 yards would not argue the gun was marginal though.
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Old February 1, 2012, 02:26 PM   #70
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I would rather see someone use a huge caliber and put um down clean and quick, than try to "out shoot" their gun, their is a family down here that shot 5 deer this year and didn't recover them (my friend and I found them), they didn't bother tracking them because if you don't see it go down you couldn't have hit it, I'm not sure wat caliber they were using, probly something in the 270 range, they take every shot they can, doesn't matter if the deer are running 200 yards up threw the pines and brush and the winds blowin 30 open fire, a .270 at 200 yards would be enough gun for a white tail but not with the menatlity people like this have... gives me a sick feeling
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Old February 1, 2012, 03:20 PM   #71
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I'd have no problem shooting an elk with a 243Win. BUT I would use the toughest bullet I could find. A bonded or monolithic bullet would work fine.

But as a handloader you learn about different bullet constructions. Most guys don't handload so they just use whatever comes in the box and many times it is the wrong bullet for the application.

Then again their are handloaders shooting at tough as nail pigs with varmint bullets
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Old February 1, 2012, 04:41 PM   #72
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A few months ago one of my neighbors was bragging about shooting a deer with a .22LR. I told him that .22LR isn't enough gun for deer. He said that's all he had at the moment. He said he shot it behind the ear and it went down immediately. (see the last sentence in next paragraph) I asked if he harvested the meat and he said yes... but only the backstraps and fed the rest to the dogs.

This is the same guy who bragged about shooting a feral pig with a 20ga. He said the pig ran off. I guess he saw some discomfort in my expression so he said he finished it off with a shot to the head. I asked if he intended to harvest the meat. He said he gave it to a neighbor who'll butcher and eat it. The following week the pig was back and he showed me the scar where he shot the thing... about mid-torso maybe three inches below the spine. BTW, I do agree that killing feral pigs just to be rid of them as an invasive species is fine. This is about how it was shot, not why... and it's about being truthful. This guy, a very nice guy otherwise BTW, gives me no reason to believe anything he says regarding his hunting ethics.

Some people just don't care about humane kills nor limiting kills to harvesting the meat or dealing with pest issues. These people will always use inadequate calibers if that's what's in their hands and they won't hesitate to shoot even with inadequate aim. I'll never understand that mentality.

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Old February 1, 2012, 04:41 PM   #73
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There is a lot of difference between hunting deer with a .22LR and hunting them with a Muzzloader. Almost any cartridge does have an effective range, some may be measured in feet others in hundreds of yards. I think the crux of the argument goes back to carrying say a 7mm-08 Rem instead of a .300 Win mag on an antelope hunt. Regardless of what you choose to hunt with, bow, ML, pistol, stardard round, or belted magnum, as long as you know its capabilities and much more importantly YOUR capabilities and stay within them then it will work. I would much rather see someone take a plain jane old .270 he had uses so much it had the finish worn off than a brand new 30-378 Wthby that they hadn't shot enough for it to become second nature. Bad shots are bad shots regardless of the round used. Lots of game animals lost to poor bullet placement than poor choice of caliber/cartridge. A deer gut shot with a .300 Win mag will run off just as a deer gut shot with a .30-30 Win. Knowing when to NOT take a shot is just as important as taking the shot. I really don't think anyone is advocating use inadequate rounds for hunting, just saying you don't have to max out the firepower if you don't wish to.
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Old February 1, 2012, 04:53 PM   #74
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The all in one gun 45/70 deer to Grizz. elephant to.
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Old February 1, 2012, 06:06 PM   #75
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I use a .243 with 100 grain lead tipped bullets to hunt white tail. It's the smallest caliber I like to hunt with. For larger animals, which I've never hunted such as bear, I'd want something stronger like a .45-70 in my hands. My .243 has served me well and is a very accurate rifle. I'm comfortable with shooting deer up to around 300 yards with it, I've shot further too. But I do agree with the op to an extent, how many have shot a deer only to find it be full of .22 bullets or birdshot, or atleast have heard someone this has happened to? It's very dumb and happens a lot. Its been said that half of the deer killed in WV have been killed with .22s and that's probably right unfortunately. Many people poach around here so they want to be quiet, a .22 rifle works great for them. But not all of them are head shots and a few of those head shots arent kill shots. It frustrates me to hear about deer filled withbullet holes after a real hunter has took much of his time to hunt the deer and it's now wasted because of some idiot can't hunt and used a spotlight and a .22 rifle and only wounded the deer.
But other than the obvious, I don't think there are any minimum for deer. Anything stronger than .22lr is ok in my book for white tail. I know a guy that uses 7.62x39 and is good with it at 100 yards, with the original military sights. Me, I prefer a .243, a .243 mag specifically. They do make .243 shorts believe it or not. I'm also going to be using a 45-70 with open sights on the rainy and foggy days next season. And I'm wanting to start turkey hunting, I plan on using a Marlin Goosegun 12 gauge, that has a 3 foot barrel and a full choke. That should be plenty.
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