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Old January 28, 2012, 08:38 AM   #1
hooligan1
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Simple question? hard answers.

The question is this: If a rifle shoots a factory cartridge very nicely, is it too much to ask it to shoot different bullet and powder combo's as well?

Next question: Should I keep buying different powders and components, to try to repeat the results from the said factory ammo.

(I am not yet at my wits end, but I'm getting close to my wifes,)
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Old January 28, 2012, 08:42 AM   #2
steve4102
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All my rifles shoot my handloads much better than what little factory they have seen.

What's the problem? Details please.
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Old January 28, 2012, 09:27 AM   #3
wncchester
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".. is it too much to ask it to shoot different bullet and powder combo's as well?"

Not to much ask but it can easily be too much to obtain. THE most critical reloading component is the bullet. Some rifles like lots of bullets, some only like a few, a few rifles only like one or two bullets; no powder/primer/case combo will make a rifle like a bullet it doesn't like.
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Old January 28, 2012, 09:31 AM   #4
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What kind of rifle is it? Also what was the factory ammo that did so well?

Some factory ammo can be hard to duplicate. They can blend thier powder, and if they do that rarely is it available to the common reloader, for a wide variety of reasons.
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Old January 28, 2012, 10:43 AM   #5
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"... Some rifles like lots of bullets, some only like a few, a few rifles only like one or two bullets; no powder/primer/case combo will make a rifle like a bullet it doesn't like."

Ain't that the truth. My 223 loves 40 grain bullets and bullets 63 grains and heavier but those mid range bullets don't shoot worth a darn. The first loads I tried were with 55 grain bullets. Thought I had the most expensive POS in the firearms industry then on a fluke I tried some 40 grain ballistic tips and I had to go down range to look at the target every time I pulled the trigger. Couldn't see but one hole through the spotting scope. Yep, they were all in the same hole. Same with 63 grain semi points. Go figure.
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Old January 28, 2012, 11:26 AM   #6
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IMO 90% of the accuracy equation is in the bullet and case preparation. If I were a betting man, I would bet that your cases are over sized by your FL die. You want a nice tight fit with the shoulder to base dimension...like fired case - .002".
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Old January 28, 2012, 11:49 AM   #7
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Heat treating, rifling (type, twist and number), length and composition of the steel for the barrel will affect how it shoots. Finding the JUST RIGHT combination of bullet, powder and case prep is what keeps use going and pull our hair out.

Once I find what works the best, I just stick with it.

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Old January 28, 2012, 01:02 PM   #8
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I'm in the process of finding what combo my Tikka T3 Lite in .204 likes the best. I've tried (5) different bullet and (4) powder combinations - I just received some Speer 39gr TNT bullets and I'll try them with IMR 8208 next. But when I was at the range a couple days ago shooting all of these variations, I would periodically shoot a Hornady 32gr V-Max factory round at a separate target - it shot the best damn group of the day - duh!
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Old January 28, 2012, 01:35 PM   #9
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My first 30-06 loved good ol' RP CoreLokt factory loads. It was close to 2 yrs before I learned how to load better ammo but it was also my first centerfire rifle. If I hadn't bought the dies and components before I fired the factory loads (to generate once-fired brass ) it may have been a long time before I felt the need to load for a rifle.
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Old January 28, 2012, 07:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan1
Simple question? hard answers.
The question is this: If a rifle shoots a factory cartridge very nicely, is it too much to ask it to shoot different bullet and powder combo's as well?

Next question: Should I keep buying different powders and components, to try to repeat the results from the said factory ammo.

(I am not yet at my wits end, but I'm getting close to my wifes,)
The powder, and the amount of powder are only two elements to obtaining good accuracy.

The fit of your cartridge to your chamber. (Only one part of which is headspace.)

The distance of the bullet to the rifling.

Bullet weight

Bullet velocity relationship with barrel's twist rate (stabilization)

Bullet velocity variation (got a Chronograph?)

Bullet velocity relationship with barrel's harmonic vibrations. (This is almost like magic)

Strength of crimp (a.k.a. bullet pull)

Some handloaders enjoy tinkering with these factors (and more) to find that (those) combinations that work best. I would liken it to those who enjoy stalking an animal more than the actual kill.

I suggest, if you approach loading with that attitude, you will have a lot of wits' ends left at the end of the day than you do now.

It is an esoteric approach, and not for everybody. But I bet your rifle will be able to better factory ammunition if you find the right combination of brass, primer, powder, powder charge weight and cartridge dimensions.

This is the essential difference between handloading and reloading.

Good luck on your quest. Finding the "right" load is the bullseye.

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Old January 28, 2012, 07:36 PM   #11
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Do you use a chronograph? There is usually a velocity "sweet spot" for a rifle/bullet combo. Some of my rifles track the loading manual numbers pretty close, but others do not. Check the velocity of the commercial rounds from your rifle.
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Old January 29, 2012, 09:34 AM   #12
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No chrono as of now but, maybe in the future.
I wasn't really looking for a pep-talk, guy's, I have't quit working up loads,,, I have to load another test pattern today and next saturday, go to the range.

The bullet in question is that "long drink of water" 150 grn Swift Sirrocco II.
The rifle I have is a Weatherby Vanguard 7mm Rem Mag.
The powder that this bullet has shown "some" promise with is the H1000.
I talked to one of the Tech's from Swift, He told me to seat this bullet .030 to .050 of the lands. I have been seating it .040 of the lands. (he seemed to be right so far)
I have tried IMR 4350, IMR 4831, H4831 sc, H1000, IMR 7828, H 4350...
The rifle and scope are sound, maybe it's me, but I have shot this rifle for two years solid and I like it, no flinch or stupid distraction, other than an occaisional idiot shooting on my target.
I have also tried 160 Accubonds and they are coming along nicely and I feel like I am getting somewhere with those dudes and the IMR 7828, I am seating those bullets only .010 off the lands. I think I still have adjustment there, if needed.

The grouping is nowhere near what this rifle will shoot with the Hornady Custom 139 grn BTSP's,,, it will stack'em right up and nice 1/2 MOA, that Swift bullet, 1 1/2 at one hundred, sometimes two inches.

I feel that this rifle will shoot lighter bullets fine, I found it does like Nosler bullets in the 150 gr range, with IMR 4350, so I figured that the Swift, should work fine.....

What I'm thinking, and maybe some of you probably came up with, is that this rifle might not like those longer bullets,,? And maybe it likes lighter bullets better, but I still want to try heavier bullets in it.

Would it be worth trying a Large rifle primer instead of the CCI 250 Magnum rifle primer??

I want to thank you guy's for taking the time to ponder my data-finding mission problem.
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Old January 29, 2012, 01:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
The grouping is nowhere near what this rifle will shoot with the Hornady Custom 139 grn BTSP's,,, it will stack'em right up and nice 1/2 MOA, that Swift bullet, 1 1/2 at one hundred, sometimes two inches
It would SEEM that the faster lighter bullet is doing better with the "DWELL" timing on that rifle. It may not be possible to get the larger 160 grain bullets to leave the barrel at the same time that the lighter 139s do and you will experience a greater amount of muzzel wip making it impossible to get the same tight groups.

The old addage "if it an't broke don't fix it" might come into play here.
Jim
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Old January 29, 2012, 05:02 PM   #14
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Jim243, you may be righter than you know. I'm actually just pondering trying the 140 grn Accubond bullet... Also I have noticed that this rifle has a problem with copper fouling. I have been working it down today but it's not responding to the run of products I normally use,,,, this could be some of the trouble.
I appreciate the time and ideas you fellas have, feel free to speak candidly anytime to me as it usually gets my attention best!
It is the Swift bullets that foul this rifle extra badly.
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Old January 29, 2012, 05:39 PM   #15
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You might want to buy a sample pack of bullets to try various weights and brands without spending the money for an entire box of 100.
I can't remember exactly where I saw them last, but you might try Sinclair or Brownell's.
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Old January 29, 2012, 06:46 PM   #16
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Hooligan1,

Read this article.

As far as the length of the bullet, I don't know the weather conditions you have been testing under, but in standard conditions a 9.5" barrel should be able to stabilize your 150 just fine. The only hitch may be that it isn't fully recovered from initial yaw at 100 yards. You might check group size at 200 if you can.

As far as seating depth goes, some throats want the bullet up close, while others like it back further. This thread's first post is Berger's method of finding the desired depth.

Try Dan Newberry's method of identifying your sweet spot load. Work up in .7% steps, or about .5 grains for the powders you are using.
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Old January 29, 2012, 08:23 PM   #17
ligonierbill
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FWIW, I have had good luck with Reloder 22, or even 25, with 160+ bullets from a 24" Remington 700 7mm Rem Mag. Almost always over CCI large rifle magnum primers.
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Old January 30, 2012, 05:30 AM   #18
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Unclenick, I appreciate the "leg-work", I have read these articles as of now and will be purchasing the Boretech products,(shipping is as high as the cleaners). Next weekend I'll be back at it to research some of this Dan Newberry article.

Thanks again!!
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Old February 4, 2012, 08:00 AM   #19
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Thanks again for the advice fellas, I'm still going to try some reloader 25, as it was this powder for which the tech from Swift said that he liked.

I'm on a Mission to purchase the bore tech stuff, today... I'll be sure to post the results, Unclenick.
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Old February 5, 2012, 11:10 AM   #20
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I would mostly experiment with different bullets first. Then I would experiment with different powder later.
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Old February 5, 2012, 11:59 AM   #21
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That's what I do, bullets first, then powder.
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Old February 5, 2012, 02:16 PM   #22
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That's exactly what I've done from day one, I have decent accuracy with 150 grn Ballistic Tips, and Partitions with IMR 4350, and the 160 grn Accubonds are coming along, however the Sirrocco bullet is causing my fuss, they are longer than the nosler bullets and so far their the finnickiest dudes around man.... And they foul the barrel really badly.....

I will persevere, and I have also talked myself into trying lighter bullets such as the 140 grn Accubond, and a heavier bullet yet, maybe 175 grners!
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Old February 5, 2012, 05:01 PM   #23
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For big game I load nothing but 175 gr Sierra Gamekings over IMR 7828 touched off by a CCI LR Magnum primer. For some reason that combination has always grouped very tight for me.

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Old February 26, 2012, 08:03 AM   #24
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It comes down to this for me,,and I"ve been mistaken before, but I believe at this point no more Swift Sirrocco II's through my rifle. The nosler products have never caused me this amount of trouble so that where I begin my new series of test...

The 140 grn Accubond as well as finishing up on the 160 grn Accubond's.
The 160's are so close but I am obliged to reteste them at this point because of the fouling. Fouling may or may not be to blame but I have to check it off the list as I work for extreme accuracy from my handloads.
My brother says that maybe just maybe I chasing something that doesn't exist or doesn't need to be, "a 350.00 hunting rifle that shoots one hole from one hundred" I disagree, I thinks the world is full of cheaper rifles that want to shoot nice little groups, and I happen to own two.

I will also try some of the Sierra bullets, I have shot them before and like their accuracy.
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Old February 26, 2012, 09:55 AM   #25
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Hooligan - If you need practice on getting the copper out, I have some rifles my nephews have not cleaned after they shot them. Next time you are in Warrensburg....


Tag. I am always interested in how people do with their load development. When messing around with the .222 and the .30-06, I have found the biggest factor to be the bullet.

I have read several articles about bullet weights and still do not understand why some rifles like the lighter weight AND heavier weight bullets, but mid-range just won't group well. Then you have the rifles that only like one end of the spectrum and not anything at the other. One of these days I may be able to wrap my mind around it.
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