The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 23, 2012, 08:35 PM   #1
davery25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
6.5x55 Swedish Mauser M96 loads

Hi guys,

I've just bought a Carl Gustav M96 made in 1908 to compete in the military rifle comps down here in Australia and to develop a load for it. The ranges I'll be shooting at are 100m, 200m, 300m and 500m.

It groups better than I can but seems to shoot high at 100m and i have to aim at the bottom of the paper to hit the 6 inch red circle, even with the sights adjusted as flat as possible.

Does anyone had any good loads for the m96? I've got PRVI brass, 139 grain Lapua Scenar projectiles and several powders including H4895, Varget and RL15 on hand. I'd prefer to use these but any loads and components are welcome.

Also has anyone had any luck with different weights of projectiles. I'm inclined to stick to the 139 grains but all suggestions are welcome.

When sharing load info PLEASE make sure that these are for the literally ancient m96 action and not the m98 or any modern actions.

Thanks guys
davery25 is offline  
Old January 23, 2012, 09:29 PM   #2
SHR970
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2011
Posts: 505
If you want to deal with the shooting high issue, address the rear sight first. The sight you have is battle zero for 300 meters with the 160 gr. M94 ammo. They will be close to zero at 400 meters with 140 gr. M41 ammo. You will be shooting real high at 200 meters with that sight. If the competiton rules allow, you may have three good choices.

First is the Swede Model 38 "T" sight (first graduation is 150 meters with M41 ammo). It will have a T stamped on it. Do not use the M38 sight that is graduated from 100-600 meters as this is calibrated for the M94 ammo.

Your second choice will be the M55 sight that was used on the M41B sniper rifle. It is graduated from 100-600 meters.

The last and preferred choice would be the M58 sight which is the same as the M55 but has windage screws. Some care needs to be taken with this one as it was replaced for field service with the M55 as the screws were a bit delicate for standard ground and pound service.

As to loads, the Swedes tend to prefer slower powders, slower than 4895 /RL15. That doesn't mean you can't work out a good load with them. I found a load with 3031 that works pretty good in one of my Swedes.

Does your Swede have a round brass disk on it? If so, read up on what the markings mean. This disk is fairly common. Does it have a squarish plaque on the stock with a bunch of numbers on it? Not so common...this is the correction factors for range based on M94 ammo / sight calibration to M41 ammo.
SHR970 is offline  
Old January 24, 2012, 12:40 AM   #3
davery25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
Thanks SHR, that's very informative. Am i to take it that lighter rounds will shooter higher then?

I wanted to try 100 grainers because that way i get lots of velocity but its not really viable if im having to aim low ultra low.
davery25 is offline  
Old January 24, 2012, 08:01 AM   #4
SHR970
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2011
Posts: 505
The peak of the rise will be farther out. Due to the substantially higher velocity, the peak will also be higher.
SHR970 is offline  
Old January 24, 2012, 09:07 AM   #5
sundog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 1999
Location: Green Country, OK
Posts: 730
I prefer 4831, and similar speed powders for the Swede, at modest velocity. Accuracy is superb.
__________________
safety first
sundog is offline  
Old January 24, 2012, 10:06 AM   #6
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,010
I shot Swedish ball in several service rifles and in my M700. I think my load with AA 4350 and a 140 are close enough to service rifle velocities and pressures that you could use the 139's without a problem.

I have found no basic difference between AA4350 and IMR 4350. Accurate Arms told me they blend their powder to the IMR 4350 pressure curve.

The basic issue you will have with a 1908 vintage receiver is that it is old and made from old materials. The 6.5 Swede can be hot loaded in modern actions well above Swedish service rifle pressures, but what is safe in a modern action may cause receiver seat set back in a pre WW1 rifle.



M1896 Infantry Rifle 29' barrel Carl Gustafs mfgr 1903

17-Aug-06 T = 85 °F
143 gr FMJ 1986 Swedish Ball

Ave Vel = 2610
Std Dev = 14.38
ES = 45.59
High = 2633
Low = 2587
N = 8



M38 Infantry Carbine 24" barrel
28-Oct-94 T ≈ 60 °F

143 gr 1986 Swedish Ball OAL 3.065" 47.4 grs powder average

Ave Vel = 2427
Std Dev = 22
ES = 62
Low = 2395
High = 2457
N = 10



M700 22" Barrel

143 gr Swedish Ball 1986 headstamp

2 Feb 2008 T = 54 °F

Ave Vel = 2470
Std Dev = 18
ES = 48
High = 2491
Low = 2443
N = 5

140 gr Hornday Spire Point 43.0 grs AA4350
R-P new brass CCI-200 OAL 2.990"

2 Feb 2008 T = 52 °F

Ave Vel = 2512
Std Dev = 27
ES = 72
High = 2547
Low = 2475
N = 5
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old January 24, 2012, 05:33 PM   #7
davery25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
Did you always use RP brass in your matches Slamfire? Have you tried any other brass? I noticed that the RP brass stretched a fair bit on firing, as opposed to the PRVI brass which didnt stretch noticably.

Did you ever compare these to something like Lapua by chance?

Also with your reloads how many firings are you guys getting out of your brass?
davery25 is offline  
Old January 24, 2012, 07:54 PM   #8
SHR970
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2011
Posts: 505
You will find an issue with R-P or Win brass. They use the standard head diameter of ~.473 at the rim and ~.471 at the beginning of the brass.* 6.5 Swede runs ~.480 at the rim and ~.477 at the beginnig of the brass.* That .006" difference in the head will cause premature brass failure; especially if you full length size. If you want a good chance at decent case life, use Privi, Norma, or Lapua as they are much closer to spec.

To quote from Volume 1 Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders by P.O. Ackley
Copyright 1962 Plaza Publishing 1848 West 2300 South Salt Lake City Utah.

Page 359.
From Paragraph 1
Some difficulty is experienced when attempting to rechamber the original barrels for wildcat cartridges based on standard American cartridges like the 30/06, because the 6.5X55 chamber is somewhat larger near the base causing a sloppy condition, when standard cases are chambered.

P2
Many use ammunition made from American brass, such as the 30/06, 257, 7MM, etc., but it could hardly be called a safe practice.

End quote.

* Dimensions courtesy of Lyman Loading Handbook 49th edition.
SHR970 is offline  
Old January 25, 2012, 10:16 AM   #9
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,010
Quote:
Did you always use RP brass in your matches Slamfire? Have you tried any other brass? I noticed that the RP brass stretched a fair bit on firing, as opposed to the PRVI brass which didnt stretch noticably.

Did you ever compare these to something like Lapua by chance?
I bought a bulk box of R-P and a few boxes of Lapua. I am not shooting the round competitively and don't have many reloads on my cases.

My buds who shoot Lapua love the stuff. I really doubt in a service rifle barrel you will see much difference on target between brands.

As for stretching, I don't know what you are measuring. Every new case I fire, after sizing the case is over length and needs to be trimmed at least 0.010 or 0.015".

It is possible that PRVI is harder. American Army practice was quarter hard brass, what commercial makers do is anyone's guess.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old February 11, 2012, 02:08 PM   #10
travelr
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2012
Posts: 1
I'm using Lapua brass, Hornady 120 gr SPT & 140 gr Amax bullets,
over IMR 4831 powder, Russian primers. I've also used Berger 130 gr
VLD bullets with excellent results as well.

I use IMR 4831 because Hodgdon's Reloading manual shows this powder
produces the highest velocities at the lowest pressures. I've also used
H4831 with success as well, just a bit lower muzzle velocities.

My rifle is a Swede M96 (mfrd in 1914), rebarreled by PAC-NOR (6,5x55),
1:8 rate of twist; 22" chromoly match barrel. Action drilled and tapped for scope bases; bolt handle turned down.

In it's military configuration it shot okay: 2" groups, or so @ 150-yds.
Currently it shoots sub-MOA with the components I've listed above.

You may wish to either visit Hodgdon's website, or purchase their
reloading data. All their data for this cartridge is around 46,000
CUP. Mostly below.

All Swedish Mausers mfrd BEFORE WWI, were mfrd with Swedish steel,
considered to be of the highest quality. The downside, if there is one,
is that the M96 only has two lugs, instead of the three lugs of the
M98k Mausers. Yes there are other differences, but that is the only
one I know of that has any bearing on the strength of the action.
Ironically, nobody questions Rem M700s with their two-lug design.

If you have any concerns about your specific rifle, have a gunsmith check it
out, or even better, a local barrel mfr who can also test the steel for it's strength.

Best of Luck
travelr is offline  
Old February 11, 2012, 02:52 PM   #11
hornetguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2011
Location: on the north side of DFW
Posts: 794
Quote:
You will find an issue with R-P or Win brass. They use the standard head diameter of ~.473 at the rim and ~.471 at the beginning of the brass.* 6.5 Swede runs ~.480 at the rim and ~.477 at the beginnig of the brass.* That .006" difference in the head will cause premature brass failure; especially if you full length size. If you want a good chance at decent case life, use Privi, Norma, or Lapua as they are much closer to spec.
Now THAT is useful information for me... I started out loading my Swede with PMC brass, and got good accuracy with IMR4350 and the 140gr Hornady Interlock at about 2650fps. I mean, it's MOA, if I do my part. I have since switched to RP brass, and seem to be having trouble getting the same level of accuracy/velocity. It's close, but just not quite as good. That could be the issue...
Now I get to go home and mike all my brass...
__________________
I always felt that if I got to the point where I thought it was time to bury my firearms, it was actually time to pick them up..
hornetguy is offline  
Old February 11, 2012, 03:07 PM   #12
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 5,441
Quote:
All Swedish Mausers mfrd BEFORE WWI, were mfrd with Swedish steel,
considered to be of the highest quality. The downside, if there is one,
is that the M96 only has two lugs, instead of the three lugs of the
M98k Mausers. Yes there are other differences, but that is the only
one I know of that has any bearing on the strength of the action.
Ironically, nobody questions Rem M700s with their two-lug design.
The m96 actions are STRONG enough, but what they lack is the better gas handling characteristics of the m98. In a proper m98 action the third safety lug does NOT engage the lug recess, all the force of the cartridge is held by the first two lugs, same as in the m96.

The biggest difference is the size of the gas holes in the bolt body, they are MUCH larger in the m98, and the "gas flange" on the safety housing at the rear of the bolt which prevents gas from riding along the bolt body and back into the shooters eyes. This isn't to say that any rifle should be shot without shooting glasses, just that an m98 will handle a ruptured case much better than an m96 or earlier model rifle.

So the reason for those low pressure rounds isn't action strength, it is not to stress the brass to failure. The Swede M96s have been rebarreled into some pretty "strong" cartridges like the 8x57 IS (or JS if you prefer).

The Swede Mausers were proofed at 66k psi IIRC, so it isn't that they can't handle modern standard pressure ammunition but that they haven't been proofed with a modern proofing round which is usually a bit north of 80K IIRC (it's been years since I looked at European proofing standards).

Jimro
__________________
"Gorsh" said Goofy as secondary explosions racked the beaten zone, "Did I do that?"

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/
Jimro is offline  
Old February 11, 2012, 06:29 PM   #13
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,010
Quote:
All Swedish Mausers mfrd BEFORE WWI, were mfrd with Swedish steel,
considered to be of the highest quality.
Swedish iron was free of phosphorus which is why Bessemer’s converter worked with it, but it darn near put him out of business when the converter was used with iron from other sources and the steel came out brittle.

Then he found a fix.

Though an accident of geography Swedish iron was good stuff for the period and the historical legacy of its reputation still hangs around. However, modern smelting and steel making produces a very consistent product regardless of the origin of the ore.

http://www.tekniskamuseet.se/1/272_en.html

The Swedes used plain carbon steels throughout production, and regardless of the source, plain carbon steels are inferior to alloy steels in terms of material properties.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old February 11, 2012, 07:51 PM   #14
hk33ka1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2010
Posts: 275
Some people buy a replacement front sight that is taller to bring the 100m zero down. These sights can be filed down to meet your rifles needs.

How are the Sellier & Bellot Cases for size/spec?
hk33ka1 is offline  
Old February 11, 2012, 11:08 PM   #15
firewrench044
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2007
Location: Fort Pierce, Florida
Posts: 187
the Sierra 142gr works best in mine( M96 & M41B )

6.5X55
142gr Sierra MK
43.5gr IMR 4350
Win. case
CCI BR2 primer
3.100 coal
firewrench044 is offline  
Old February 12, 2012, 06:18 PM   #16
Mike / Tx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2000
Posts: 1,244
For what it's worth, quite a few years back I purchased one of the Kimber of America sporterized 96's for my daughter to use for hunting in the woods. When I did I called them and asked about loads that could be sued in it. They said they had proofed everything that went out the door to modern pressures. Take that with a grain of salt.

This said, we worked up a load or two but kept to the slowest powders and velocities no higher than 2650fps. Over the years it has been used to take down quite a few feral hogs out to 400yds or a tad more, but for the most part in under 100yds, and has been responsible for several nice deer making it on the wall and table.

A year or so back, I found a deal on some Privi 6.5x55 ammo and purchased a dozen or so boxes of the same lot. I figured for the price they would work fine for hog hunting and deer out to 100yds. Turns out to be the best shooting ammo we have ever run through the rifle. In one sitting myself, my daughter, and my grandson all shot the rifle into one group at 100yds of around 3/4". Not a 3/4 group each, but three shooters all hitting into the same group. Since then I and my grandson who just turned 10 have both shot several groups with it of less than an inch. Even out to 200 and 250yds it is still keeping well under 2". also recoil is simply nothing at all.

This said, if you have access to the 139gr Privi bullet, and using their cases, you might hit a good load pretty quick. Or if you can shoot factory ammo, I would sure give a box or two a try.

Good luck.
__________________
LAter,
Mike / TX
Mike / Tx is online now  
Old February 12, 2012, 09:28 PM   #17
davery25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
thanks firewrench, im happy to see that IMR4350 is working well.

What sort of groups do you get with this? I just purchased AR2209 powder (AKA H4350) and am hoping it works for me too.

The load i intend to load is:

-139 gr Lapua Scenar
-Prvi cases (i decided not to bother with lapua because any mild increase in accuracy is offset by my lack of skill with iron sights)
-Win large rifle primers (someone mentioned using magnum primers instead - is this advisable?)
- 38.5 - 44 grains of AR2209 or H4350 as you guys would know it

How do you guys test loads with iron sights? Do you test at 50 metres and extrapolate, because ill struggle with the extremely precise shooting required to determine good loads at anything over 50 i reckon.

I shot my last competition with PRVI factory ammo and yeah, its actually really good stuff but the powder they use is FILTHY. I have to work to get the fouling out even with Sweets 7.62
davery25 is offline  
Old February 12, 2012, 09:39 PM   #18
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Mine was dated 1907 and had the short carbine barrel - it liked Sierra 120 bullets best followed by their 140's. In either case 3031 was tops for accuracy, then 4064 and 4895 tied for second

Have fun
oneounceload is offline  
Old February 12, 2012, 11:56 PM   #19
recarga
Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2011
Location: big TX,USA
Posts: 45
I DONT KNOW IF EVERY ONE THAT HAS OR CURRENTLY OWNS A SWEDISH MAUSER EVERY TIME THAT IT COMES IN A CONVERSATION YOU HEART PUMPS FASTER AS IF THEY ARE TALKING OF A VERY GOOD OLD FRIEND

HERE IS MY FRIEND EL MAUSER SUEKO




THIS FROM THE MAUSER


THIS IS WHY IT GOT ME IN TO THE 6.5/55 !!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT A MILITARY LOAD!!!!
__________________
IT IS BETTER TO DIE ON YOUR FEET
THAN TO LIVE ON YOUR KNEES.
recarga is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 03:11 AM   #20
davery25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
howa's come in 6.5?! hot damn
davery25 is offline  
Old February 13, 2012, 09:20 AM   #21
recarga
Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2011
Location: big TX,USA
Posts: 45
Now that you mentioned here is a little history of Howa rifles


Since 1940 Howa has been heavily involved in the Japanese armaments industry. Many of their WWII-era weapons are highly sought after collector's items.
Howa was involved in manufacturing the famous Arisaka Rifle series.
Post WWII Military
Howa created a copy of the US M1 Garand and the M1 carbine for the Japanese Self Defense Forces during the early days of the Cold war, with the following manufactured for JGSDF use:
Howa Type 64[1]
Howa Type 89[2]
AR-18 (licensed production for Armalite Inc.)
Howa Type 96
Howa 84mm Recoilless Rifle (licensed copy of the Swedish Carl Gustaf 84 mm Recoilless Rifle)
During the early 1970s, Howa produced the AR-18 and AR-180 5.56mm assault rifle as a license from Armalite Inc. of Costa Mesa, California,[3] which marketed the rifle to various military forces. Japanese government restrictions on the sales of military small arms to foreign countries eventually forced Howa to cease production of the AR-18/AR-180, moving production back to Armalite.[4]
Civilian Rifles
Howa has produced a long line of civilian hunting and target practice rifles in a range of calibers. Howa manufactures components for other firearm companies such as Mossberg and Weatherby.
__________________
IT IS BETTER TO DIE ON YOUR FEET
THAN TO LIVE ON YOUR KNEES.
recarga is offline  
Old February 16, 2012, 09:00 PM   #22
davery25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
recarga that is an insane group with your m96 there...very nicely done. Looks to me like you've tried to duplicate the m41 prickskytte round there? Have you tried seating bullets out to try and touch the lands (or just before)? If so how was accuracy. I ask because i notice you simply seem to have gone with the max OAL for the cartridge which is 3.15"
davery25 is offline  
Old February 16, 2012, 11:50 PM   #23
recarga
Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2011
Location: big TX,USA
Posts: 45
I've found a new load since that picture , using berger VLD bullets and I can get really close to the lands even with the mauser, is the same load on the picture of the Howa ,

Thank you for the complement , this mauser is makes me wonder why nobody makes a RIFLE so perfectly put together , this is almost 100 years old and shoots like many new rifles out of the box.
__________________
IT IS BETTER TO DIE ON YOUR FEET
THAN TO LIVE ON YOUR KNEES.
recarga is offline  
Old February 18, 2012, 02:53 PM   #24
aerod1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2000
Location: Garland Texas U.S.A.
Posts: 730
I have found the 6.5x55 Swede to be very accurate at very mild loads using Reloader 19. I have 4 swedes and the 6.5x55 is my favorite rifle cartridge.
I shoot 139 grain JSP.
__________________
NRA Life Member, TSRA Life Member,
C&R 03 FFL, Texas CHL
Recreational Reloader
U.S. Navy Veteran (USS Midway V-1 Division)
aerod1 is offline  
Old February 18, 2012, 06:04 PM   #25
hivel37
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2004
Location: Hill Country
Posts: 520
Just sold my Swede last weekend. I feel the need for another.
hivel37 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12259 seconds with 7 queries