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Old January 28, 2012, 04:07 PM   #51
Grendel65
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WOW....REALLY? Are you kidding me? AGAIN?

This argument has been the biggest continuing discussion on ARF.com's Variants board for 5 years. Some of you have learned NOTHING!!

Out to 400 yards, most modern centerfire rifle cartridges have essentially the same flight characteristics. They all shoot fairly flat for that distance. Its why BDC reticles are so common. There are exceptions, but that's a pretty good general rule.

Past 400 yards is where things get interesting. At that point, drag begins to play a big part in what the bullet does, and the sleeker the bullet, the better the flight characteristics are. The 6.5 Grendel case is short and fat, the 6.8 longer and skinnier. They have essentially the same powder space. What differs is that the short, fat case allows longer, higher BC bullets to be used and still fit in the magazine of an AR15.

You simply cannot compare bullet weights, because a bullet heavy enough in the 6.8 to have the same BC as a 123 grain 6.5 bullet is way to long to fit in the mag. Therefore, you can only compare the bullets closest to optimum in each. In the Grendel, that is generally recognized to be in the 115-130 grain range. In the 6.8, its in the 85-110 range. (Some people think lighter and faster is better than heavier and slower, even within the ranks of the proponents of each cartridge.)

I'm sorry, but at this point, a history lessen is in order: The PPC cartridge was developed by Dr. Lou Palmisano and Ferris Pindell. They started with the .220 Russian and developed the 6mm Palmisano/Pindell Cartridge, or 6mm PPC. They never developed the Grendel, and their only contribution was that original idea.

In the mid to late 1990's, Arne Brennan necked the cartridge up to 6.5, creating the 6.5 PPC. Arne Brennan and Bill Alexander were then introduced and began development of the 6.5 Grendel. The Grendel cartridge limped along until Bill Alexander convinced a gentleman at Lapua that it was a good thing, he eventually agreed. Working with Alexander, they developed a cartridge with a blown forward shoulder and a shorter neck, as much different from the 6.5 PPC as the 6mm PPC was from the parent .220 Russian. David Fortier has published pictures of the cartridges on ARF.com if you want to research and see what they looked like at each stage. It was not, "As for the 6.5G, it got it's creds shooting and earning the 600m record which it held for some years. I question the background of a 6.5 fan who doesn't know this. After all, it was developed by the creator of the PPC cartridge, all of which were designed to garner long distance precision shooting records - on and in paper. " as Tirod states.

Tirod says this, here's the straight scoop: in the AR, the 6.8 is a great killer under 500m, the 6.5 will punch paper very precisely out to 600m, and the .308 will still kill people at 850m., and proposes it as the straight scoop.

Tirod, you say the Grendel punches paper so well, denigrating its potential as a game rifle, even though Bill Alexander has stated multiple times that he was trying to develop a great deer cartridge for the AR15. The Grendel has bullets with significantly better sectional densities than the 6.8, which is one of the deciding factors in penetration, critical in hunting. So lets do this, we'll take the two rifles, with hunting length barrels, stand side by side, and place 2 pigs at 100, 200, 300, etc. out to say, 800 yards. We'll each shoot one shot at each pig, first one to not drop the pig, loses. Better yet, we'll save the pigs for hunting, which is way more fun than shooting stationary live targets, and we'll simply shoot targets, comparing the ballistics generated by any decent computer program. What we'll find is simple. That out to about 500 yards, the energy between the two, using optimum bullets for each, is comparable. Beyond that, the Grendel's numbers are obviously superior.

In fact, what we'll also find is that at longer distances, the Grendels numbers actually become quite comparable to the .308, which now gets us back to the OP's original question.

The .308 is simply much more common, its been around for approx. 60 years, while the Grendel for only about 7.

I've had this comparison of the ballistics of each for years. It was originally posted by Arne Brennan.

NOTE the results using Open Tip Match bullets from each rifle and compare the results. From 600-700 yards out, the Grendel exhibits less drift than the 175gr .308, and energies are within 100 pounds. If you think any animal or human can tell the difference in 100 pounds, please disregard!
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Old January 28, 2012, 06:43 PM   #52
markel
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Thanks gentlemen! All of the information has been valuable and have a much clearer picture of performance levels. I can now look past all the marketing hype and get down to building a great rifle.
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Old January 28, 2012, 09:07 PM   #53
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The OP asks us to compare the Grendel with the .308 but, as near as I could tell, did not indicate the type of shooting he wants to do. That means that some guessing is in order -- and our previous posts reflect that.

Generically comparing with the .308 Winchester, the Grendel offers the same or a bit better probability of hit out to beyond sensible hunting ranges. It is a LOT kinder to the shoulder. It does well in target shooting out to at least 600 yards with the right bullets and loads.

For hunting, the high sectional density of 6.5 mm bullets makes it effective on almost any game you care to hunt except for the largest North American animals. One would usually go with a larger cartridge for those animals anyway.

The AR15 is generally lighter and easier to handle than is the AR10.

The price of factory ammunition continues to go down compared to the .308 Win. Reloaders will find that the Grendel is less expensive to shoot when the price of brass is amortized over a few reloads.

The debate also suggests a lot of passion for the different cartridges. My own take, based on owning and shooting a number of different calibers from .223 through elephant rifle calibers, is that if I had only a .308 Winchester, I would look to owning a smaller caliber for casual shooting. If I had only a .223, I would be shopping for a larger caliber for big game hunting. If I had only a Grendel, I would be happy.
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Old January 28, 2012, 09:11 PM   #54
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I had only a .308 Winchester, I would look to owning a smaller caliber for casual shooting. If I had only a .223, I would be shopping for a larger caliber for big game hunting. If I had only a Grendel, I would be happy.
Interesting bottom line take on the whole affair.
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Old January 28, 2012, 09:19 PM   #55
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Could always get a .260 and have the best of both worlds there you can have your cake and eat it too.
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Old January 28, 2012, 10:16 PM   #56
Grendel65
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In an AR platform, the Grendel is very hard to beat as an all around cartridge.

Grendel = AR15 .308 = AR10

AR15's run about 30-40% cheaper to build or buy than comparable AR10's.

AR 15's weigh 2-3 pounds less than comparably equipped AR 10 style rifles.

The Grendel recoils significantly less than a .308, so followup shots are much quicker if necessary.

.308 surplus ammo is comparably priced or even slightly less than Wolf Grendel ammo, though Wolf MPT might be slightly superior in accuracy.

Taken across the board, the Grendel is lighter, cheaper, and does virtually everything that the .308 will do.

Compared to a .260 in the AR 10, the advantages narrow, because the .260 shoots the same bullets faster. Even so, I still pick the Grendel, because the advantage of surplus ammo goes away, and the .260 weighs more and recoils more.

IF I had to shoot everything at 600 yards or more, the .260 would be my choice, though. AND I would take it over the .308 every day of the week.
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Old January 28, 2012, 10:28 PM   #57
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well obviously the 308 is a better round but the rifles are so big and heavy!
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Old January 28, 2012, 10:47 PM   #58
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well obviously the 308 is a better round but the rifles are so big and heavy!

Please define "better".

Heavier bullet?

Since the trajectories are essentially the same, that's all I can see as the difference.

Heavier bullet equals more recoil. Is more recoil better?

In SOME circumstances a heavier bullet is desirable, such as when shooting dangerous game. BUT...in North America, shooting all but a few big game animals, that is not an issue.
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Old January 28, 2012, 11:01 PM   #59
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I don't like the idea of a 24" AR so the grendel pushing the 100gr OTM @ 3000fps is unlikely which would lead me to stick with my .308 for anything past 600yds. I agree the grendel is awesome for the AR15 truly makes it more versatile. One could also argue that running the new Berger 168gr Hybrid around 2700fps, or even the 175s at 2700fps with alliant MR-2000 that the .308 would out do it at 1000yds. Just a matter of choice i guess.
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Old January 28, 2012, 11:34 PM   #60
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Quote:
well obviously the 308 is a better round but the rifles are so big and heavy!
Better for what?
- hunting?
- plinking?
- serious target shooting?
It is definitely better at producing recoil.

It does carry more energy than already exemplary cartridges in .243, .257, .264 .277 and .284 calibers.

Many cartridges in these calibers are all well-known game getters, so where is the .308 enough "better" to make a difference?
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Old January 29, 2012, 12:26 AM   #61
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The 6.5 Grendel is more along the lines of a 7mm Waters than a full powered 308. The 308 holds the advantage in terms of energy and lethal range. But the AR-10 rifles are heavy when compared to the older Garand style action and I much prefer the 22" barrel M14.

Not to step on any toes, the 6.5 cartridge is fine and I'm sure it would be similar to my 6.8 which I like.

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Old January 29, 2012, 07:46 PM   #62
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6.8 SPC vs 6.5 Grendel - will the arguments ever end??



Whichever you like, 6.8 or 6.5, it's going to be a lighter package than an AR 10 sized .308, however, if you don't need all of that junk on it, a nice wood stocked Springfield M1A is an option. The OP needs to decide what HE wants based on HIS criteria and HIS priorities. We can argue all year about the benefits and shortcomings of everything and not settle a darned thing.
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Old January 30, 2012, 10:45 AM   #63
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Bill Alexander sells the 6.5G, I don't consider him guilty of anything more than marketing his round to the largest possible choice of consumer.

That doesn't mean the 6.5G ballistics actually fit what's needed. The 6.5PPC was a paper shooter round, the 6.5G earned it's rep as a paper shooter round, and then - after all the work to make it a long range precision paper shooter round, AA sees the writing on the wall and starts marketing it to the American hunter.

Where's the ads in Guns and Ammo with dead elk at 500m published 5 years ago when he had the chance? It's only been lately Bill woke up and realized he'd been missing out on the money. Has 6.5G been made SAMMI now, yes, which basically means it's up for grabs, anyone can build it to spec, but the money isn't going to AA. The financial reality is he's giving it away because he can't make a bunch of money on it, it's no longer exclusive. Either keep credit in the history books for it, or be blamed for riding it into the ground.

Doesn't change the ballistics at all, which are superlative at distance - well beyond the typical hunting ranges of the most popular game. It's not a whitetail cartridge, just being marketed as one now, and the turnaround of emphasis from long range to Joe Bubba carbine ammo is almost laughable.

The OP didn't post up about some other alternative cartridge, it's about 6.5G vs .308, and in that specific faceoff, even I would choose 6.5G. That doesn't make it the optimum all around gamegetter in America, tho, it lacks the power for dangerous game, and it's not optimum out of a 16" barrel any more than the .22-250. If that short fat case and long bullet do have greater carrying power, it takes a longer barrel to give the bullet more time to absorb energy from the slower burning powder to be able to fly over 400m to deliver it. High BC means Long Distance is REQUIRED in order to have the superior efficient shape demonstrate energy saving to deliver.

It doesn't do anything better at whitetail ranges, so if a cartridge is chosen specifically for that, it's not at the top of the list. Shoot prairie dogs with it, and the G excels where the .308 would be punishing. Shoot dangerous game with it, and you'd better be really good - your guide is still going to have something much bigger to back you up. HE'S not carrying a 6.5G, no sirree, but after all, he's marketing his Great White Hunter services, nobody spends coin on bumpfiring with Joe Bubba for major game.

I'm not arguing about that other cartridge, I'm simply pointing out I haven't drank the AA koolaid. The 6.5g isn't a major step forward in much at all, especially for deer hunting since it's range ability is actually excessive. It trades off power for BC further down range where most hunters won't need it, and that, along with it's documented ancestry as a paper puncher is exactly why people ask questions about it's ability on live game. I didn't ask the question, but it DOES come up, the market out there isn't totally convinced it's so hot after all. And most of them chose something else besides it or .308, 6.5G is still treading water trying to keep alive.
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Old January 30, 2012, 11:22 AM   #64
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Quote:
...It's not a whitetail cartridge...
The 6.5 Grendel is in the class of .257 Roberts, 30-30 Winchester and outshines the 6.8 SPC in killing potential. It also beats the 100 gr CoreLokt load for the .243 Winchester at all ranges. The only cartridge in this lineup that satisfies the Hornady HITS criteria beyond 600 yards is the Grendel. The others lose out a couple of hundred yards closer in.

Interestingly, the 30-30 has better killing potential at longer ranges than the .243 Win, but the rainbow trajectory makings hitting more of a challenge.

All this on an AR frame.

See http://shootersnotes.com/grendelmani...or-large-game/ for a more detailed discussion.
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Old January 30, 2012, 12:55 PM   #65
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I just completed and fired my first AR, and it is a 6.5 Grendel. Im very happy with it, initially I wanted an AR10, I went away from that tot he AR15 due to weight, then I was looking at the 6.8, but the ballistics of the Grendel is what got me, I only plan to shoot things <300yds, but maybe I want to lob some farther someday, dont want to be limited. 6.5G accuracy was another amazing thing, the BC of the bullet, etc.. Pretty awesome round and Im very happy I went that route. It was a little more than I was initially wanting to spend, but worth it.
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Old January 30, 2012, 01:11 PM   #66
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Quote:
The 6.5 Grendel is in the class of .257 Roberts, 30-30 Winchester and outshines the 6.8 SPC in killing potential. It also beats the 100 gr CoreLokt load for the .243 Winchester at all ranges. The only cartridge in this lineup that satisfies the Hornady HITS criteria beyond 600 yards is the Grendel. The others lose out a couple of hundred yards closer in.

Interestingly, the 30-30 has better killing potential at longer ranges than the .243 Win, but the rainbow trajectory makings hitting more of a challenge.

All this on an AR frame.

See http://shootersnotes.com/grendelmani...or-large-game/ for a more detailed discussion.
You've handicapped the .243 by running a corelokt. A .243 running a 105gr hunting VLD @ 3100fps bullet absolutely stomps all the cartridges listed above including the grendel at every range past 200yds, even if you managed to get the 100gr 6.5 bullet at 3000fps. The grendel doesn't hold a candle to a .243 for long range or energy downrange. Where do you get that a 30-30 has better killing potential at long range? Even if a .30-30 were capable of launching a 175gr bullet at 2600fps the .243 still retains more velocity and energy downrange.
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Old January 31, 2012, 11:24 AM   #67
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Quote:
outshines the 6.8 SPC in killing potential.
It's not about whether it can do that. Since the 6.8 does outsell the 6.5G in products offered on the market, including ammo, I'll pass on this as nothing more than the typical koolaid delirium. Hunters are voting with dollars, not internet postings.

I didn't bring the 6.8 into the conversation. Most of it was shoved in because some apparently think it's the target of the VS. comparison anytime 6.5G is mentioned. That's their problem. Overcompensating for something?

As proposed by the OP 6.5G vs .308, if I was hunting, I'd pick 6.5G. You get the AR15 platform, lighter weight, less recoil, and handier size. Those are all advantages over an AR10, so much so it was only adopted by a few small countries. The AR15 is in service with 65, over 9 million have been made, and you can order parts from a dozen vendors and they all work together.

I've hunted with .308 in a HK91 for twenty years, it's not that much fun. Had 6.8 never been invented, I'd be shooting 6.5G. It's clearly superior to 5.56 on medium live game, simply because it has a better fit to the actual working conditions. We don't shoot deer out to 800m, nor do we need more than 1000 foot pounds. Something that delivers that out to 350m will do it most of the time, and that's a small percentage situation.

There's no problem with the 6.5G in and of itself, what I find amusing to poke hole in is all the overblown statements and exaggeration of the 6.5G fans. They can't and won't just accept it for what it is. For some reason, it has to be better that XX cartridge every time.

A 123 gr bullet with 30gn of powder can't violate the laws of physics, it does just fine, but it's not the best answer for everything. That's why other cartridges exist. Pinning one's ego entirely on one cartridge isn't mature.
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Old January 31, 2012, 12:43 PM   #68
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Blackops_2,

The first point is that the .243 and 30-30 are classic cartridges. The comoparisons were made in that spirit using what appears to be the most popu;ar factory loads.

The second point is that the game potential uses the Hornady HITS methpdology.

Choosing a hot handload with bullets not normally available in factory ammunition distorts the comparison. The closest to the load you describe is the 95 gr Hornady SuperFormance. Using this load for comparison would further substantiate th e conclusions.

Bottom line -- the Grendel is an AR-15 cartridge that has serious medium game potential and is showing that in actual field performance.
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Old January 31, 2012, 02:02 PM   #69
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I agree, i was just pointing it out. Who actually buys a grendel and pays 40$ for 50rds. Whoever has more money than me. Most people reload that shoot any cartridge comparable to what the grendel was (a wildcat). Sorry for not considering the comparison at hand was on factory ammo. The only factory ammo i buy is for my AR.

That's also not overly hot load a 115gr DTAC can easily achieve 3000+ in a 26"-28" setup. Part of the .243's downfall is mainly having to run it in a long setup to utilize the capability. That being said i get 2700fps with a 105gr VLD on a 18" rig.
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Old January 31, 2012, 08:09 PM   #70
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Tirod has serious issues when it comes to historical facts. He is, from all reading here and in other forums, historically challenged.

He is correct that the 6.5 PPC was a target cartridge. However, he equates the 6.5 PPC to the Grendel, apparently.

He says, "The 6.5PPC was a paper shooter round, the 6.5G earned it's rep as a paper shooter round, and then - after all the work to make it a long range precision paper shooter round, AA sees the writing on the wall and starts marketing it to the American hunter."

Please demonstrate who has used the 6.5 Grendel as a paper shooter round in competition.

Bill Alexanders stated purpose, way back 7+ years ago, was to develop a round that would be an effective deer cartridge in the AR15. The market for a deer cartridge was huge compared to the market for a target rifle, where there really is no class for an AR15 based Grendel, anyways!

The 6.8, however, was developed not as a hunting round, but as a combat round. The military at large found that it did not offer a substantial enough improvement over the 5.56 to make the switch, so it never happened. (They felt the same way about the Grendel, although its intent was never as a military round. Bill Alexander worked in military arms prior to founding Alexander Arms, and knew that row
was way to tough to hoe!)

However, its easier to point at the Grendel fans and call them CoolAid drinkers than it is to actually accept that with the right bullets there is nothing the 6.8 does that the 6.5 won't do, but there is plenty the 6.8 can't do that the 6.5 DOES!

Inside 400 yards they are both effective, but from 400 yards out, the Grendel factory loads walk away from any performance with any factory 6.8 load. Thats all that you can reasonably compare, factory vs factory, because hand loads will never be used by most shooters.

Those are the facts, as Tirod likes to proclaim.

Last edited by Grendel65; January 31, 2012 at 09:34 PM.
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Old February 1, 2012, 06:56 AM   #71
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I better step in and shut this one down. Obviously stated several times over yet some not getting the hint, this has gone far away in Off-Topic-Land.

Besides, better me than Art having to read through all of this and having a conniption fit.
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