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Old January 20, 2012, 12:44 PM   #1
litlewolf2
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Lift the ATF's prohibition on restoring the 2nd Amendment Right to Bear Arms.

Please help enforce the law as it was written and remove the ban the ATF has on gun possession rights. We need to get rid of this catch 22 the ATF has on restoring the 2nd Amendment right. To help please sign the petition located at change.org below. Thanks for your support.

http://www.change.org/petitions/the-...t-to-bear-arms

Last edited by litlewolf2; January 20, 2012 at 06:46 PM.
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Old January 20, 2012, 12:49 PM   #2
Aguila Blanca
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Dumb. I don't believe I have ever set foot in Minnesota. Whoever wrote this thing wants me to sign a letter stating that I was arrested for marijuana possession in Minnesota at the age of 18.

This one isn't going anywhere. It isn't even presented in the form of a petition.
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Old January 20, 2012, 01:35 PM   #3
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Not for me. Frankly, I have only limited compassion for those who break the law when the law is clear. People need to understand that there are consequences to their actions and those might be long lasting and serious.
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Old January 20, 2012, 01:48 PM   #4
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Quote:
Whoever wrote this thing wants me to sign a letter stating that I was arrested for marijuana possession in Minnesota at the age of 18.
When the second sentence in a so-called "petition" is not complete, it is not a good sign.

Perhaps the writer should have spent age 18 paying more attention in English class rather than rollin' doobies.
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Old January 20, 2012, 01:58 PM   #5
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Good luck to you. I signed it, though it doesn't seem just perfect. I don't read anything in the second amendment about "except for former potheads" or "except if you once had a felony that your state doesn't seem to care about anymore".

Additionally, you could consult with the local/state authorities regarding your legal status for buying antique or muzzle-loading firearms. In many states, a black powder/muzzle-loading rifle does not legally equal a firearm or have to be sold through an FFL or shipped to an FFL. I really enjoy my 1858 Remington replica revolver and my sidelock pistol; neither required an FFL.
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Old January 20, 2012, 02:18 PM   #6
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I don't quite understand. If your civil rights were restored and your conviction was reduced to a misdemeanor. Then why are you still prohibited from gun ownership?

You say the Federal Government prevents you because a felony 'once was there'. That sounds to me like your Minnesota record still shows a felony. If your conviction was truly reduced to a misdemeanor and your rights fully restored, then all the Feds should see is a misdemeanor.
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Old January 20, 2012, 03:39 PM   #7
litlewolf2
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To clarify.

First off, this is a Federal issue not a state, Minnesota was just my own personal example. Minnesota and many other states would have no problem restoring my right to bear arms.

Second this "restoration of rights" is already in effect. The law is 1st you have to complete your full sentence be it incarceration, probation, fines, classes, or what have you. Then in most states and federally a certain amount of years must pass after all these have been satisfied usually ranging from 5 to 10 years.

Third according to the Gun Control Act of 1968 a person can apply to get their rights restored. If that person is "not be likely to act in a manner dangerous" they can get their gun rights restored. This was appointed to the Attorney General who delegated it to the ATF. The ATF however has prohibited expending any funds to investigate these applications.

Fourth the application process since the ATF has their policy in effect has been re-delegated to the president in which if you ask me is not appropriate use of the presidential office and the ATF should take on the responsibility they were given.

Fifth as far as my own charge goes it was a felony but was knocked down to a misdemeanor. It currently is classified as a misdemeanor but since it was a Felony initially it triggered the Gun Control Act and is still in effect despite the current status.

Sixth the petition is formatted through Change.org and the link to the petition is here.
http://www.change.org/petitions/the-...t-to-bear-arms

My right to vote and help determine how this country is run has been restored, but by Second amendment right to bear arms has been taken away just doesn't seem right.

Also I'm not a "pothead" and haven't really smoked much since I was a teen. But I do have to put this question to you out there against the specific issue of potheads owning guns. How many violent pot heads do you know?

If the gun control act takes effect as it was written, it is a very thorough and makes it difficult for anyone it applied to get their rights restored.

I do believe the right to bear arms is a basic American right. But I also don't believe that just anyone should be able to own a gun. I also believe people can and do change and deserve 2nd chances.

Thanks for your support.
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Old January 20, 2012, 04:14 PM   #8
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Quote:
haven't really smoked much since I was a teen
Really?




.
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Old January 20, 2012, 04:36 PM   #9
Brian Pfleuger
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Petitions do not contain personal stories. Anyone who signs a petition which admits to having committed a crime that they have not in fact committed is foolish. There's not a snowball's chance in hell I'd put my name on that letter.
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Old January 20, 2012, 04:50 PM   #10
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The whole thing is stupid.

BATFE does not have a ban on anything.

The US Congress refuses to fund restoration of rights.

BATFE has nothing to do with it, except they are prohibited by Congress from using ANY allocated money for this purpose.
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Old January 20, 2012, 04:52 PM   #11
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litlewolf2: That's absurd!!!
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Old January 20, 2012, 05:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Also I'm not a "pothead" and haven't really smoked much since I was a teen. But I do have to put this question to you out there against the specific issue of potheads owning guns. How many violent pot heads do you know?
You chose I’m assuming to voluntarily break the law and by your own admission continued at some point or points to repeat the violation. No disrespect but I have no sympathy for you.

For myself I believe the Constitution guarntees the right to bear arms so long as you are not under arrest or actually in prison or jail or otherwise in custody. Unfortunately most of the House, Senate and Judges and Lawyers read english differently than I do and differently than every school teacher I have ever met and its out of my power to change other than to vote.

In the end you on some level made a choice and apparently dont like the consequences.... Again no disrespect but the decision I am guessing was apparently yours.
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Old January 20, 2012, 05:48 PM   #13
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by litlewolf2
Second this "restoration of rights" is already in effect. The law is 1st you have to complete your full sentence be it incarceration, probation, fines, classes, or what have you. Then in most states and federally a certain amount of years must pass after all these have been satisfied usually ranging from 5 to 10 years.
Where in the Federal law you are worried about does it say anything about a minimum time period having to pass before your rights can be restored?

Quote:
Third according to the Gun Control Act of 1968 a person can apply to get their rights restored. If that person is "not be likely to act in a manner dangerous" they can get their gun rights restored. This was appointed to the Attorney General who delegated it to the ATF. The ATF however has prohibited expending any funds to investigate these applications.
Wrong on multiple counts. First, the BATFE has NOT prohibited spending any funds on restoration of civil rights. The Congress has specifically not provided any funding TO the BATFE for this purpose. Your beef is with the Congress, not with the BATFE.

Secondly, you were arrested, charged, convicted, and rights restored under state law. You are done. The BATFE -- even with funding -- cannot "restore" on a Federal level rights that were never -- on a Federal level -- taken away. You need a better lawyer. If what you have related is correct -- that your conviction was reduced from a felony to a misdemeanor and your civil rights have been restored -- then you can buy a gun. If your conviction was in state court, your restoration MUST occur in that state. The Feds don't need to duplicate the act of restoring the rights that your state already restored.

Quote:
Fourth the application process since the ATF has their policy in effect has been re-delegated to the president in which if you ask me is not appropriate use of the presidential office and the ATF should take on the responsibility they were given.
Nothing delegated to the BATFE has be "re-delegated" to the President.

Quote:
Fifth as far as my own charge goes it was a felony but was knocked down to a misdemeanor. It currently is classified as a misdemeanor but since it was a Felony initially it triggered the Gun Control Act and is still in effect despite the current status.
Wrong. As stated above, restoration of your rights by your state satisfies the Gun Control Act.
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Old January 20, 2012, 06:09 PM   #14
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Yep, another stupid poll.

Quote:
brickeyee The whole thing is stupid.

BATFE does not have a ban on anything.

The US Congress refuses to fund restoration of rights.

BATFE has nothing to do with it, except they are prohibited by Congress from using ANY allocated money for this purpose.
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Old January 20, 2012, 06:28 PM   #15
litlewolf2
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Quote:
you were arrested, charged, convicted, and rights restored under state law. You are done. The BATFE -- even with funding -- cannot "restore" on a Federal level rights that were never -- on a Federal level -- taken away. You need a better lawyer. If what you have related is correct -- that your conviction was reduced from a felony to a misdemeanor and your civil rights have been restored -- then you can buy a gun. If your conviction was in state court, your restoration MUST occur in that state. The Feds don't need to duplicate the act of restoring the rights that your state already restored.
You are wrong on this point. My state IS NOT restricting me from possessing a firearm. I applied for a license though the sheriffs department as suggested by them to see what the results would be. They verified what they themselves told me. The state is not restricting me having a license or possess a firearm but the feds are and they would not allow the license or me to even posses a firearm. This was well after my felony was knocked down to a misdemeanor.

In order for me to get the FEDERAL restriction lifted, I would have to apply though the atf to get it restored. But since they have been prohibited to process any applications, they suggest on their site to apply for a "Presidential pardon".
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Old January 20, 2012, 06:37 PM   #16
litlewolf2
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Fixed..

I fixed the wording in the petition. Thanks to all the critics who pointed out my mistakes. I appreciate you clarifying what I wanted to convey. Anything else folks?
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Old January 20, 2012, 06:43 PM   #17
litlewolf2
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correction.

Quote:
the BATFE has NOT prohibited spending any funds on restoration of civil rights.
That maybe true. But according to the ATF this is how they put it.

"Since October 1992, however, ATF’s annual appropriation has prohibited the expending of any funds to investigate or act upon applications for relief from Federal firearms disabilities submitted by individuals."

I apologize for any confusion.
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Old January 20, 2012, 10:19 PM   #18
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by litlewolf2
In order for me to get the FEDERAL restriction lifted, I would have to apply though the atf to get it restored. But since they have been prohibited to process any applications, they suggest on their site to apply for a "Presidential pardon".
I believe you are incorrect. Perhaps the issue is that your state has not corrected its records to show that your charge was reduced and that your rights have been restored. The basic fact is, there are state laws and there are Federal laws. If you were charged and convicted under state law, the restoration of rights occurs at the state level and that's ALL that is required.

If you were charged and convicted under Federal law, then the state can't do anything about it and your rights could not have been restored in any way at the state level.

The following is direct from the BATFE web site's FAQ section:

Quote:
Q: Are there any alternatives for relief from firearms disabilities?

A person is not considered convicted for Gun Control Act purposes if he has been pardoned, had his civil rights restored, or the conviction was expunged or set aside, unless the pardon, expungement, or restoration expressly provides the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.

Persons convicted of a Federal offense may apply for a Presidential pardon. 28 CFR 1.1-1.10 specify the rules governing petitions for obtaining Presidential pardons. You may contact the Pardon Attorney’s Office at the U.S. Department of Justice, 500 First Street, N.W., Washington, DC 20530, to inquire about the procedures for obtaining a Presidential pardon.

Persons convicted of a State offense may contact the State Attorney General’s Office within the State in which they reside and the State of their conviction for information concerning any alternatives that may be available, such as pardons and civil rights restoration.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(20) and (a)(33)]
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Old January 20, 2012, 10:26 PM   #19
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Marijuana has been Schedule 1 since, what, 1970? This isn't news. Sorry, but you screwed up.

Now, should that be a lifetime bar to your rights? Absolutely not, but a petition isn't going to change it. A remedy for this situation would most likely come through the courts. Consider donating to the 2nd Amendment Foundation.
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Old January 20, 2012, 10:33 PM   #20
nate45
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There is your answer OP in post #18, seems simple to me.

Just notify the Feds that you have had your rights restored and all should be well. If it isn't the problem is with your state.
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Old January 21, 2012, 02:37 AM   #21
litlewolf2
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Federal, State.

The Gun Control Act is a Federal Law. You do not have to be convicted under a Federal law in order for it to take effect. Once it has taken effect despite the fact that the charge has been lowered below felony status it still remains in effect. That is one of the reasons for the petition and things need to change.

As far as the state goes. It's like California and Marijuana. You may be legal in the state but that doesn't stop the feds coming in arresting those who are in the right as far as their own state goes.

I'm not really sure what this statement was suppose to mean..

Quote:
Marijuana has been Schedule 1 since, what, 1970? This isn't news. Sorry, but you screwed up.
But as far as I know almost all (if not all) states still have possessing Marijuana being a felony after a certain weight has been exceeded.

If you meant that Marijuana is what this post is about, it's not. It's just a example of how the gun control act is not being followed and also how the law itself is flawed.

Interesting discussion though, anything else folks?
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Old January 21, 2012, 02:54 AM   #22
nate45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by litlewolf2
You do not have to be convicted under a Federal law in order for it to take effect. Once it has taken effect despite the fact that the charge has been lowered below felony status it still remains in effect.

Not according to what Aguila Blanca posted.


Quote:
A person is not considered convicted for Gun Control Act purposes if he has been pardoned, had his civil rights restored, or the conviction was expunged or set aside, unless the pardon, expungement, or restoration expressly provides the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms. [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(20) and (a)(33)]
You say MN has restored your civil rights. Have they are haven't they?

You said you had a letter from the state restoring your civil rights. Do you are don't you?
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Old January 21, 2012, 11:16 AM   #23
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by litlewolf2
The Gun Control Act is a Federal Law. You do not have to be convicted under a Federal law in order for it to take effect.
Correct. It is a Federal law, and it does apply to convictions in either Federal or state court.

Quote:
Once it has taken effect despite the fact that the charge has been lowered below felony status it still remains in effect. That is one of the reasons for the petition and things need to change.
The law obviously remains in effect, but the law says if your civil rights have been restored by the state that convicted you, the law no longer considers you to be a prohibited person.

There certainly should be funding for the Federal restoration of rights process, I won't argue with that. But the bottom line is, YOU DON'T NEED IT. According to you, your state has restored your rights. You are good to go. There is NOTHING the Federal government can do for you.

Please read what I quoted from the BATFE FAQ. If that's not enough for you, the FAQ gives the citation to the full Federal law -- look that up and read the law.
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Old January 21, 2012, 11:23 AM   #24
Al Norris
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Can we get our facts straightened out a bit?

litlewolf2, were you originally convicted under a felony charge? Or, were you charged under a felony count which was plea-bargained down to a misdemeanor and then convicted?

There are 3 things that you need to look at.

1) Under the felony conviction, if the maximum sentence could have been more than a year in prison/jail, then you are a prohibited person under Federal law.

Quote:
18 U.S.C. § 922(g) It shall be unlawful for any person -
(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable
by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
2) Under the misdemeanor conviction, if the maximum sentence could have resulted in two years (or more) of incarceration, then you are a prohibited person under Federal law.

Quote:
18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(20) The term “crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year” does not include—
(B) any State offense classified by the laws of the State as a misdemeanor and punishable by a term of imprisonment of two years or less.
Following the last quote, above, is this little missive:

Quote:
18 U.S.C. § 921(a) What constitutes a conviction of such a crime shall be determined in accordance with the law of the jurisdiction in which the proceedings were held. Any conviction which has been expunged, or set aside or for which a person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored shall not be considered a conviction for purposes of this chapter, unless such pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.
3) You now have to ask yourself, was your civil right to vote, taken away and restored? Was your civil right to sit on a jury, taken away and restored? Was your civil right to hold public office, taken away and restored?

If you have answered, "No," to all three questions, then your civil rights, as interpreted by the DOJ and BATF&E, were never impacted.

They do not consider your 2A rights as a civil right. Most particularly, if that was the only right that was taken away and restored.

There are two cases, winding their way through the Federal Courts, that address these questions, albeit in slightly different ways: 1) Schrader v. Holder (#32 in the 2A Cases), and 2) Enos, et al v. Holder, et al (#39 in the 2A Cases).

Outside of an expungement or a pardon, by the Governor of the State you were convicted in, you will have to wait until these cases are decided.

Of course, if you have the $$$, you can always hire a good 2A attorney and file a lawsuit yourself on these grounds. Be warned, this will cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, to take it to just the Circuit Court of Appeals. By the time you get there, one or both of the two cases, above, may have already been decided.
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Old January 21, 2012, 12:04 PM   #25
Uncle Buck
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Thanks Al, I also am confused.

I have been charged three times with a felony. In two cases the charges were dropped and in the third case I was convicted of misdemeanor. I paid a $100 fine (And about $1,492 in attorney fees).

I have never been denied when I purchase a gun.

I was wondering if he was convicted of a felony and once his time had been served it was reduced to a misdemeanor.
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