The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old January 24, 2012, 06:38 PM   #51
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
For those claiming NYC enforces across the board, and who I'm surprised don't know better (PK? Come on, man, you're usually a fount of good info...), here's the recent case to which I was referring:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...-nyc-gun-case/

From that article:

Quote:
Mark Meckler, a high-profile Tea Party activist and founder, pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct after trying to take his semi-automatic gun onto a flight at La Guardia Airport.
Quite the plea deal he was offered by NYC.

Quote:
Meckler was fined $250 and given a one-year conditional discharge, meaning the case will be dismissed as long as the Tea Party leader says out of trouble for a year. Authorities also confiscated his weapon.
So, if you are all correct about uniform enforcement, can we expect the TN doctor and the ex-Marine to also get $250, confiscation, and no criminal record?

If not, sorry, but you are all wrong.

Meanwhile, Meckler's post plea-deal comment:

Quote:
In a blog post on MarkMeckler.com, Meckler wrote, "much to my surprise, in New York City, it is considered "disorderly conduct" to exercise your constitutionally guaranteed, Second Amendment rights."
MLeake is offline  
Old January 24, 2012, 06:56 PM   #52
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
I'm not sure I see that as related to enforcement....

They were all arrested. THAT'S enforcement.

The end result, that's about money, influence and powerful lawyers, like anything else. I would say that's hardly unique to NYC.

In other words, if some guy from Tennessee gets arrested in NYC with a gun and can't afford a good lawyer and gets nailed, while Mr Powerful, Influential TEA partier ALSO gets arrested (equal enforcement) but then has 3 high-power lawyers, is a public figure, throws a stink and gets a $250 fine, well, that's systemic lack of fairness in the penalty system, it's not a difference in "enforcement".

Wouldn't be any different in Tennessee with their speeding tickets. Two out-of-staters go by Mr Tennessee Highway Patrol going 95mph. One has a NY plate, the other a Kentucky plate.

If he pulls them both over and writes them both tickets for going 95 in a 65, that's equal enforcement. Because one of them happens to have powerful friends and gets out of the ticket while the other poor sucker pays the fine, that's Lady Justice losing her blindfold again.

If he lets the Kentucky driver go and nails the NY guy, that's unequal enforcement.

Penalties should be equal and consistent too, but I really think that's a different issue.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old January 24, 2012, 10:09 PM   #53
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
I consider the charges and penalties to all be part of "enforcement."

I don't really see how they can be divorced.
MLeake is offline  
Old January 24, 2012, 11:07 PM   #54
Al Norris
Staff
 
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,319
No MLeake. It's a separation of powers thing.

Enforcement (charging, ticketing, arresting) is an executive power. The penalty phase is the Judicial power (adjudication of the law).
Al Norris is offline  
Old January 24, 2012, 11:46 PM   #55
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: 1B ID
Posts: 6,969
Quote:
I don't care if they've STARTED doing it or not. They said they're going to and if they do, it's wrong. Just as wrong as New York City's gun laws.
They haven't said anything, except that they hope New Yorkers will be observant of their traffic laws.

Where, exactly, is this statement of intent to target NY citizens, that you keep insisting exists?
__________________
"Such is the strange way that man works -- first he virtually destroys a species and then does everything in his power to restore it."
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old January 25, 2012, 01:33 AM   #56
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Al Norris, I'll accept the separation of powers, but only partially.

The prosecutor had to sign off on the plea deal. That's part of charging.

The judge could have refused to accept it; or, the judge could have thrown out the charge.

But the charging part of enforcement is not being uniformly applied. When the defendant has a legal and PR machine available, NYC is quietly burying the problem.

I'm not naive enough to think this doesn't happen in many places. However, I do suspect that part of the DA's motivation to deal in this particular case is that Meckler could have really thrown up some interesting challenges to NY state's effective ban on on-resident carry, and NYC's track record with regard to FOPA.

(Not that I think Meckler really would have fallen under FOPA, but discovery of other NYC cases could have been interesting.)
MLeake is offline  
Old January 25, 2012, 07:13 AM   #57
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,088
I'm in partial agreement with Heyjoe.

A lot of police work involves the officer's discretion (or lack thereof). In most cases, a police officer has the discretion to ignore some offenses, even a felony offense. Pragmatically, an officer may not be able to ignore some things (supervisor is present). But if cops can get creative with "probable cause" statements, they can be equally creative in finding reasons not to enforce a law in a particular instance.

Police, DA's and politicians make exceptions every day for movie stars, athletes, the rich and famous as well as other politicians. "It was a simple mistake" or "There was no intent to break the law" are excuses they give the media. But George who runs your bowling alley can't get word to the mayor or police chief. He has no clout. Here, the state of Tennessee has decided to tell the Mayor or Governor to make an exception.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old January 25, 2012, 08:51 AM   #58
SwampYankee
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: November 1, 2008
Location: I can be found on a number of other forums.
Posts: 1,333
Quote:
They haven't said anything, except that they hope New Yorkers will be observant of their traffic laws.
I agree, and I do not think that they will target New Yorkers. It is just an empty threat. THey know they really can't , they are just trying to poke NY in the eye. Who would drive into Tennessee anyway?

I also do not know what the police in Tennessee are like, but I suspect that they are not championing citizens rights. If all the police in Tennessee were made aware of the resolution from the legislature, would they even care? I doubt they would get angry and go looking of NY drivers. I suspect most of them would side with the NY cops- one less gun in civilian hands means one less gun pointed at them.... That's the general New England police attitude, at least.
SwampYankee is offline  
Old January 25, 2012, 09:08 AM   #59
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
I guess I'm kind of old school, where I accept the most obvious meaning of a statement in the context it is written and assume that people say what they mean and mean what they say.

Like my example of a duck hunter. If he says "those mallards better be careful today!", can you make a reasonable claim that he's not targeting mallards?
He might shoot other ducks too but it's obvious that he's particularly after mallards.

This is one of the biggest problems in our world today. "It depends what the definition of "is", is." Anything can mean anything. Even when there are no other reasonable conclusions.

And I say again, if they had substituted "African Americans" for "New Yorkers", would anyone believe they weren't intending to target African Americans? The outrage would be immediate, intense... and justified, because without getting into illogical, tortured interpretations, the meaning is indisputable.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old January 25, 2012, 09:45 AM   #60
bumnote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2008
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 374
Instead of wondering if TN PD will be ticketing NY drivers, here another way of looking at it:
Suppose the shoe was on the other foot and a CCW holder from NY, OR, ME, WI, etc...some state that doesn't have reciprocity with TN was caught carrying. Should the TN police ignore that and let the person go, should the TN prosecutors ignore it as well? I don't think the TN prosecutors would like that line of BS being directed at them any more than NY is. Is TN saying NY shouldn't enforce their local laws because we'd also not enforce ours in the same situation?
I don't think the lady would have faced nearly the amount of trouble she does now had TN politicans either just shut up or been a little more mature in their response. Now she's in the middle of this, which started due to her own actions, and neither side is going to want to back down and loose face. She'd likely have gotten off with a minor ticket and slap on the wrist, depending on her record, but now thanks to all this she's got a better than average chance of being charged and sentenced much more harshly.
Nothing like a politician getting involved in something fairly simple and screwing it all up.
__________________
"And remember, Abraham Lincoln didn't die in vain, he died in Washington D.C." - Firesign Theatre
bumnote is offline  
Old January 25, 2012, 12:27 PM   #61
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,617
Quote:
And I say again, if they had substituted "African Americans" for "New Yorkers", would anyone believe they weren't intending to target African Americans?
True, there would be outrage. However, "New Yorkers" are not a protected class, and it would be harder to bring litigation on Equal Protection grounds.

It wouldn't be impossible, but it would be difficult. We'd need to show instances in which folks from, say, Georgia were intentionally allowed to speed, but in which New Yorkers received tickets every time.

In practical terms, this is just glorified nose-thumbing, and I sincerely doubt law enforcement would implement it even if asked.

I don't know. Has anyone here actually driven in Tennessee? It's impossible to speed because everyone drives 5 mph below the speed limit in the passing lanes.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old January 25, 2012, 12:37 PM   #62
Nitesites
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2011
Posts: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
folks from, say, Georgia were intentionally allowed to speed
You mean we're not? I thought we were. Dang...
Nitesites is offline  
Old January 25, 2012, 12:49 PM   #63
ripnbst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2010
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 1,396
I like it, New Yorkers are already taxed heavily, tax them a little more for driving through the state of TN

I really do hope that officers pull people over, even the "5 over" crowd. People will get ****** but they can't deny they were speeding, and a seldom few will make the trip back for the court date. I've always thought out of state travelers were easy targets, but coming out and stating it is pretty bold.
ripnbst is offline  
Old January 25, 2012, 01:58 PM   #64
orangello
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 566
After further thought, i believe the lady arrested was in the wrong and should take whatever her penalty is in NYC (not your city) and deal with it. I do think she should petition to have the felony removed from her record after her sentence/fine/penalty has been served/paid. However, i also think that the authorities in TN should go FAR out of their way to PUBLICLY accomodate her in any way possible that might allow her to continue to carry and own firearms in TN (if that is remotely possible). It also wouldn't hurt my feelings if TN decided not to honor any NY permits or LEO badges as a legal permit to carry from the NYC metro area specifically (however few there may be, permits that is; i hear they have plenty of LEO's).

It is too bad that TN didn't think to immediately claim her as a unpaid "reserve" deputy, as it is my understanding that LEO's are exempted from the NYC bans.

I also think that each and every one of us should make every effort to avoid visiting NYC, avoid buying branded NYC products (I heart NY shirts, etc.), avoid doing any business with any NYC-based businesses, perhaps avoid eating large apples , and generally do whatever we can to protest the firearms laws of NYC and other such places like Chicago. Personally, i have zero desire to visit either Chicago or NYC, but from now on, i will be certain to blame it on their moronic firearms laws whenever possible. TN's state purchasing agents should make a concerted and very public effort to avoid buying products tainted by NYC for state/public use.

I am often tempted by the job openings i see posted for locations in CA, but i just couldn't give up my rights to be there.

Last edited by orangello; January 25, 2012 at 02:13 PM.
orangello is offline  
Old January 25, 2012, 02:32 PM   #65
NJgunowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,102
And here we go again with "Something happened that I don't like, that city sucks, never go there again!"
__________________
Sig 1911 Traditional reverse two tone, Sig p226 .40, Sig 556 Swat patrol, Baby Eagle/jerico steel .45
NJgunowner is offline  
Old January 25, 2012, 02:48 PM   #66
Al Norris
Staff
 
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,319
Warnings have been posted. They continue to go unheeded, which is enough to get this thread locked.

Folks, if you can't write what you want, without encountering the "Bad Language Filter," or, you continue to denigrate an entire State/City/etc., then you should stay out of the discussions in this section of TFL.

The indiscriminate use of invectives such as Demon-crat or Repugnican, or otherwise twisting personal or group names, necessarily embodies negative emotional content. Such content leads to emotional arguments wherein rational, logical thinking goes out the window. This is what our opposition does. We must take the High Road, at all times. Therefore, If you cannot use the proper terms/labels for what you are discussing, then don't bother posting at all.
Al Norris is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11161 seconds with 7 queries