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Old January 18, 2012, 10:09 PM   #26
Hank15
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Quote:
5: Know the difference between cover and concealment
+300

People in sports such as airsoft or paintball forget that sometimes, resulting in their "death" for the round/match.

In real combat situations you don't get respawns...
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Old January 19, 2012, 01:26 AM   #27
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A radio can absolutely save your life. If you suffer potentially lethal wounds, another unit or a ambulance crew can make the difference between how great a guy you were, versus how awesome you are.

One of the oft overlooked criteria for winning a gunfight is previous training and conditioning that would allow you to function under (assumed) high stress levels.
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Old January 19, 2012, 02:54 AM   #28
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@NYC Drew:
Are there bands LEO or EMTs use available to "regular folk" to call for help without cell phone usage? I know some frequencies can be monitored but not transmitted on. I have an FCC ham license and there is an "autopatch" that we can use to phone through in case of emergency and local phone service is not available.

Last edited by hangglider; January 19, 2012 at 03:03 AM.
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Old January 19, 2012, 04:16 AM   #29
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In some ways, being in a dangerous, exciting situation, is like hopping across a stream on rocks. Once you start, you don't stop and good luck if you have all the steps planned out in advance.

I'm for a plan, and using good tactics. I also know what happens to plans once the battle starts.

Basic skills may serve you well, and you'd better have them.

Once things start to happen, your mind is trying to survive, and not very efficient at suddenly coming up with an ingenious plan to help you shoot accurately and suddenly find skills you don't have.

Robert Boatman points that out in his book, "Living With Glocks" and states it more elequently.
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Old January 19, 2012, 04:59 AM   #30
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Well, I may not be any where near as trained or proficient as others, but I have a couple suggestions.

Increasing reaction times. This can be practiced, while knowing your draw routine and being able to do it without error is something, learning to react quickly to the proper stimulus is important. I.E. Furtive movement.

Finding cover/concealment is great, but keeping an "eye" on your target is just as important. Knowing whether they are advancing, flanking, or retreating is vital.

Understand your opponents goals. Are they shooting defensively, offensively, or violently. To explain this, the defensive shooter wishes to leave, get away. The Offensive shooter has the intention to continue the fight, but still doesn't wish to die. The violent shooter doesn't care for themselves or you. I would change tactics based on the situation. This may already be covered but it sticks out in my mind.

Never use the same cover, position, timing, or tactic more than twice. By timing I mean waiting for them to stop firing before firing, and never doing that in the same place more than twice. An old teaching says just because it works the first two times, doesn't mean it will work a third.

Know the pros and cons of everything yo have to work with. The cons are more important. In other words, know how to defeat yourself to win against them. Not knowing your policies, defensive action is for me and most to be the objective, not seeking out and killing.

Your list seemed to be perfect as is, my mentions may just be a bit esoteric, but they are my thoughts.
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Old January 19, 2012, 05:42 AM   #31
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Hangglider - the bands you refer to are reserved for the specific use. However if the band will save your 6 the you can bet I will step on it. When saving my 6 there is only it helps or it does not help.

Pull the trigger is as correct , a nice steady pull straight back, as squeeze, as in squeeze it straight back. But 10 bucks says unless you are very well trained, your average patrol/detective is yanking the trigger in a fire fight.

The radio will not save your life;
I have to disagree. In any fight involving more than one friendly comm's are key to saving my life. As well as getting lifesaving help if i take a major hit.

Crossfire - I like crossfire if we are doing it. If you assume avoiding crossfire means avoid the bad guys CF then yes avoid it.
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Old January 19, 2012, 12:00 PM   #32
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I dont pretend to be a LEO or have any LEO training whatsoever but I have lots and lots of military training and no I dont mean weekend warrior...

Here are my thoughts on your list.... Please note I am NOT in any way trying to be critical of your list. Hopefully maybe I can provide at least one new thing to think about and if not at least I tried to be helpful.
Quote:
1. Get to cover;

2. Deploy your long gun;

3. If feasible, wait for backup before contact;

4. Establish fire superiority;

5. Distance is your friend;

6. Run away;

7. Stop the bleeding;

8. Move laterally;

9. Maneuver on the enemy's flank;

10. Watch their hands;
1. Situational awareness - The car behind you may run over you before you can get to cover... Also the driver may not be your biggest threat just the one your attention is on.

2. Have a mental plan to get to cover and try to think as your potential adversary might.

3. Get to cover or in the absence of cover in a very short time then present yourself as a reduced size target... Turn sideways or kneel or whatever you can do to present as little target area as possible while staying mobile enough to get to the better cover. I can’t count how many videos I see officers retreating in a full stance without crouching or they are facing full chest forward.

4. Unnecessary movement can result in unnecessary exposure.... A long gun for certain is great but its not so great if your going to get shot while you move to get it..... Your mental plan should have prepared you to execute or not execute this step.

5. If possible get the long gun..

6. Wait for backup while surveying potential attacks - will the BG shoot through the back window? Are they bucket seats that make turning toward you hard or are they bench seats that arent much of a problem??? Are they still seatbelted?

7. Understand the tactical situation - the BG(s) may decide its better to take you out and attack... Your car in that case may be more effective than the long gun, if you can set off the BGs air bags with a minor collosion (I have no idea if this is legal idea so ask a lawyer but it may have a place) it may provide the distraction and the tool needed to allow you the extra moment to deploy the long gun in the face of multiple opponents and employ the force as necessary while trying to wait for the backup.

8. Fire superiority may be your friend but accuracy and shock are your the point of your spear and your armor. Nothing takes the wind out of people like seeing the most agressive BG taken out.... The shock will probably be in part your volume of fire but keep in mind rounds that leave big spider tracks in windows will have a mental effect if the engagement becomes something longer than a few seconds.

9. Distance is your friend but dont expose yourself needlessly to get distance..... Your mental pre-plan should have given you some idea of if this will be practical... and like everything else it all depends on the actions of the BG(s)..
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Last edited by BGutzman; January 19, 2012 at 08:18 PM.
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Old January 19, 2012, 12:32 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGutzman
I can’t count how many videos I see officers retreating in a full stance without crouching or they are facing full chest forward.
Most body armor does not have panels under the arms/on the sides. If you are shot in the front you may well have ribs broken from a impact on a armored vest or have a bullet go through an important organ like a lung. If you are shot through the side you have turned body armor away from where it could do the most good and placed both lungs, as well as several other organs in a line for a bullet to pass through.
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Old January 19, 2012, 05:20 PM   #34
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However, facing "chest to" presents a larger target & increases your visibility which increases your chances of getting shot. It'd be better to get get side panels and present a smaller target when you do have to break concealment/cover to fire. I understand the red tape & pain it'd be to try to get new equipment, but better that pain than go "chest to" and catch a round.
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Old January 19, 2012, 07:08 PM   #35
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The problem with getting side panels in a LEO situation is that our armor is concealed under our uniform using a different style carrier and therefore it's not as simple as just buying side panels. It also severely restricts range of motion. Our jobs are a little different than someone in a war zone. More often than not we are hands on or using less lethal options do that range of motion is quite a big deal. Getting hit in the armor is not our main concern. It's usually that one lucky hit to the throat, head, or major artery in a leg that kills someone wearing body armor. Crouching or turning sideways will not reduce that target profile.
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Old January 19, 2012, 11:40 PM   #36
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I like these:

Watch their hands if you suspect something is up.

Aim, if you have enough time.

Put your front sight on him if you have less time.

Point shoot from your bellybutton if you have no time.

If someone completely gets the drop on you, you might want to just run and seek cover, maybe shove and run.

I agree that distance is usually your friend.

I think having a "rotation" of guns is a mistake. It hurts familiarity. Remember, you have self defense guns and you have your collection.

Last edited by Catfishman; January 20, 2012 at 11:20 PM.
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Old January 21, 2012, 08:39 AM   #37
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I've done a lot of thinking on this matter over the years as I am an LEO also. I heard something recently from colleague who has spent some time in combat over the past few years. It solidified what I already knew. He said that we need to be forcing our adversaries to react to us instead of us reacting to them. Initially, we have to react. However, after that, winning or surviving would probably entail one of two things: taking the fight to the adversary or running away as fast and as tactically as you can. Since the second option is not an option for me, I am resolved to option one. I've heard this sort of advice from other men, particularly those who have survived a combat situation. It is working the OODA loop faster than your adversary, like fighter aces. Think of it sort of as a chess match. Do you win by being defensive? No, you do it by going offensive. So, intially taking cover is sound advice. However, remaining behind the cover while the suspect advances on you and outflanks you could cause you to lose. It is not absolute and a lot of this is dependent on the environment and the availability of other cover and concealment. For example, there is a police gunfight video out there where police officers are taking pistol fire from a suspect using his own pick-up truck for cover. After intially taking cover, one of the officers charges towards the suspect using available cover. He uses the suspect's vehicle to position himself and then shoots the suspect under the truck, in the leg or ankle causing the suspect to immediately quit the fight. While this was happening, he did have a back-up covering him as he advanced.

In addition to this, I think LEO's should have two handguns on them, a primary and a back-up. Some do, some don't. It is risk many are willing to take and I have taken it in the past at times. Pistols can break, get shot, get taken away, jam up, fall out while running or struggling. That second gun has saved lives.
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Old January 21, 2012, 10:02 AM   #38
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SPeed and accuracy win.

The other guy can't hit a moving target. Likely, neither can you.

My tips:

NEVER GET INTO A GUNFIGHT.

Never drink alcohol, if you 100% carry.

Avoid trouble before it happens.

Never be somewhere you wouldn't go at night.

Never look for trouble.

Never be somewhere you wouldn't go at night, even with a gun.

Deescalation, Distraction and deception.

Better to be active than reactive.


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Old January 21, 2012, 11:27 AM   #39
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1. Try to contain the problem; don't let it go mobile.
2. The four rules of weapons' safety.
3. Don't abandon cover unless you are being out-flanked.
4. Don't get tunnel-vision.
5. Don't get side-tracked from the main problem
6. Better tried by 12 than carried by 6.
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Old January 21, 2012, 11:33 AM   #40
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Most importantly, is keep as much cool as possible.

Adrenaline has a way of blurring your perception and even making you stagger about as if in a daze.

In order to effectively analyze the situation and be on top, you must maintain a level head and be able to think while hell is breaking loose.
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Old January 21, 2012, 02:55 PM   #41
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This is an excellent discussion and I'm glad that it has mostly focused on the OP's original intent (LEO training).

I do think that maintaining the 4 rules of safety should be at the very top of the list. Even if I were killed in a gunfight, I would not want one of my bullets to have taken out an innocent bystander. But that's just my priority.

I've learned a lot here.
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Old January 21, 2012, 05:15 PM   #42
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Run for cover? What?!? Rooster Cogburn would be ashamed. "Fill yor hands you sunuvabit..."
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Old January 21, 2012, 05:25 PM   #43
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You are right, Mike 1234, . . . but that was Rooster Cogburn.

Chicken Cogburn said, "He who fights and runs away, may live to fight another day."

May God bless,
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Old January 21, 2012, 05:56 PM   #44
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Not that I believe anymore but...

If you have a robe and no sword then you'd better sell your robe to buy a sword... it's better to be naked and armed than clothed and disarmed.
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Old January 24, 2012, 09:54 AM   #45
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http://www.jonesfamily.us/ron-jones/...w-win-gunfight

While parts of this list are a little humerus, there is a lot of truth behind some of these items. In particular #2 and #5
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Old February 6, 2012, 09:05 AM   #46
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Bring enough ammo to FINISH the job.
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Old February 6, 2012, 09:57 AM   #47
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...

Last edited by Mike1234; February 7, 2012 at 11:26 AM.
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Old February 6, 2012, 10:54 AM   #48
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Lots of good advise so far, but let me add a few. 1- Avoid a fight whenever you can. 2- If you can't avoid a fight, you pick the time and place 3- Be as careful as you can, but remember the winner will usually be the one who took the fight to his enemy. 4- The person who can keep their whits when everyone else doesn't will generally win every time.
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Old February 6, 2012, 10:59 AM   #49
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If you have to be in a gun fight, have a gun!

If you don't have a gun...run!

Hell, run anyway!
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Old February 6, 2012, 11:22 AM   #50
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My thoughts,

Stop bleeding should be first priority once cover is reached. The most preventable cause of death in combat is bleeding. Learn combat basic combat first aid and carry a blow out kit.

A basic rule I found to be true: What you get out of the car with is what you have for the fight. If you carry light or carry the wrong gear you will know it.

Do you do situational training at your department? Can you get them to offer some IDPA type stages? Most cops would think it fun and it might just stimulate some brain cells.
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