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Old January 17, 2012, 12:32 PM   #1
johnmcgowan
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Load questions/Ruger 270 with IMR4350 and Nosler 130 ballistic tips

I took my Ruger MkII 270 to the range yesterday to try out the new Boyd's stock as well as some reloads a friend made up for me using different loads with IMR4350. I first tried the factory Federal 130 gr ballistic tips that shot so well before the stock swap. Not too good yesterday.It was also a bit windy. I think I need to do as warbirdlover suggested to me and maybe add a front pressure point to the forearm (?) because I just could not get a decent group ,even with some reloads. With the new Boyd'sstock the barrel is freefloated up until about 3 inches before the barrel screws into the rcvr.The old stock had a small pressure point right at the start of the forearm because I couldnt slip a dollar bill in that stock.
Anyhoo, I started out with the reloads at 51.0 grains with 130 gr Nosler ballsitic tips and had 5 rounds each to try in .5 increments . The 51.5 gr. shot pretty good groups but I think it can do better. Then I tried some 52.0 (not great),
52.5 ( not great) and some 53.5 ( so so) and lastly some 54.2 grains( also just so so grouping) .
What is the max powder that you would suggest for my setup, or does someone have some suggested powder loads ? Will someone verify that 55 grains of IMR4350 is a max load for my setup please? Im also using Fedreal 210 primers.
I do realize that every gun is different and what may work for some may or may not work for others. Im also going to be looking at my stock to see if there is some play in it somewhere. I have faith in my Ruger and know it shoots better than its doing now and know it is way more capable that I am

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
John
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Old January 17, 2012, 12:44 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
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I can tell you that Hodgdon lists two loads with 130gr bullets and IMR4350.

The starting load is 51.0gr in both cases, the max load listed for Barnes TSX bullets is 55.5 while the Hornady SP shows 54.3

This part is speculation... I see that the Hornady load shows pressure expressed in CUP while the Barnes load shows PSI. I suspect that the Hornady load is from testing done a long time ago while the Barnes load is probably done with modern pressure equipment and more likely to be a true max load. This is also suggested by the fact that the TSX is a solid copper bullet and is more likely to have lower max loads than a traditional copper jacketed bullet than higher. End speculation.

If it were me, and I were not seeing any pressure signs, I would continue on up to the listed max load for the TSX.

In regards to forward pressure on the barrel.... I think you're probably right. This is not an unknown phenomenon, especially with the Ruger MkII. My MkII chambered in .204 shoots better with a slight amount of pressure at the front of the forearm. It used to have slight contact which I removed and, sadly, my groups got worse. I then noticed that if I shot faster and heated up the barrel until it touched the stock again, my groups got better.
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Old January 17, 2012, 12:59 PM   #3
johnmcgowan
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Thanks for the reply peetza. So you think a max load for me is 55.5? I dont want to shoot at max to get groups that I know are capable if I dont have to, but will try and work up some loads to get there and see what is what.
No signs of pressure so far on the spent brass from yesterday, even with the 54.2 load. Im using Federal brass btw.

After you saw that your groups werent good as they used to be before removing the pressure point, did you add some back to your stock to get you touching point on the forearm and if so ,how did you go about determining just how much?
Thanks again, I appreciate it.
John
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Old January 17, 2012, 01:23 PM   #4
Brian Pfleuger
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If I weren't getting any pressure signs I would have no qualms whatsoever about going up to max load (55.5gr).

You might explore Dan Newberry's load development system.

I restored pressure on the forearm by putting a folded piece of paper in there.
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Old January 17, 2012, 03:37 PM   #5
SL1
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Nosler's latest manual

showes a max load of 55.0 grains of IMR-4350, giving 3078 fps out of a 24" Shilen barrel. They were using Winchester brass and Federal 210 primers. The manual indicates that the 55.0 grain charge is "most accurate load tested" with THAT powder.

Using Federal cases instead of Winchester may slightly raise your pressure, because Winchester cases usually have more internal volume.

But, I wouldn't worry about that. I have previously shot my Ruger 77 (with the tang safety) using Federal brass and Nolser 130 grain Ballistic tips with even hotter loads that gave me over 3200 fps from my 22" barrel, but got no pressure signs. I was using data for a different bullet at the time, and it had a higher max charge listed. But, the velocity got my attention, and I bought a Nosler manual and backed-off on the charge weight. That was a long time ago, so I don't have the accuracy results handy. But, if I remember correctly, the best accuracy was close to the Nosler manual maximum.

The Ruger action is strong enough that I don't think you will have a safety problem with a few loads that happen to get a little above max as you seek best accuracy. But, the more of those you shoot, the more erosion you will produce on your barrel throat.

Also, I have found that my Ruger does NOT like a bipod. That probably has something to do with the intentional pressure point at the tip of the forend being located right where the bipod attaches. My gun seems to shoot most accurately with the stock resting on a bag just ahead of the action.

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Old January 17, 2012, 03:58 PM   #6
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SL, I appreciate that.
Yep, I was sorta figuring the closer I got to max the better it may get accuracy wise to a cetain point anyway, but I sure dont want to accelerate any erosion problems either.
And Im thinking too that some of my problem is the "too" free floated forearm.
I was using a very nice adjustable shooting front rest that belongs to my friend yesterday. The forarm had to sit on top of the sling mount and was a little wobbly at times but not too bad and was managable most of the time.

On the forearm issue Im having needing a pressure point up front, Im thinking about making either a nylon shim or hardwood shim and temp mounting it out towards the end of the forearm, maybe cutting a contour in the shim contact point that matches the barrel somewhat,sorta cut out like a half moon so the barrel can sit and lay in the cutout. Hows that sounding to you guys?
I just dont know how much I need to shim it. Maybe it will be a trial and error thing on my part.
Thanks!!
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Old January 17, 2012, 04:29 PM   #7
SL1
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Shimming

I don't know how much space you need to fill to make contact. But, if it is slight, then I would start by stacking strips of paper until I got the pressure "right". Going to more trouble to produce the shim before you know how thick it really needs to be in order to give the best "pre-load" to the barrel seems like it will waste a lot of effort.

And, I would not FOLD the paper, because the folds would slowly crush down over time and give you unrepeatable results. Cutting strips seems to be the best approach until you at least have a thickness to work towards with some other material that isn't sensitive to humidity. Of course, if it is resting on a wood stock, humidity will always be an issue, and the paper may be as good as anything else.

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Old January 17, 2012, 04:54 PM   #8
Brian Pfleuger
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My folded paper was only one fold, two layers.
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Old January 17, 2012, 05:28 PM   #9
johnmcgowan
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The front forearm on the Boyd has lots more space between the wood and the barrel than the original ruger synthetic stock did. Im gonna disassemble the rifle tonight and have a looksee just to see how much room I have to work with on the inside of the stock. I do recall there are some scalloped out empty places in the bottom of the forearm . I will try and measure the clearance 'tween the barrel and wood BEFORE I take it apart to get some type of benchmark measurement.
Im just in the thinking and planning stages on this, but one thing that came to mind is to go by Lowe's and get a white nylon round washer ring thats sorta thick. It already has a hole in the center of it. Again, this is just my planning stages, but then I will try and cut the nylon washer in half , drill out the remaining half hole to match the barrel diameter and use this to make a good solid craddle to let the bottom of the barrel sit in. Once that is all looking good and fits like I want it to, I could epoxy this to the inside of the forearm. This would make a good solid mount and hold the barrel steady I think. But I hear you loud and clear SL1, I'll make a temp mount first to determine the spacing, then go out and shoot a few rounds to see if this helps anything. I will try one thing at a time until we get this puppy nailed down
Im guessing that the shim /mount needs to be as close to the end of the forearm as possible, right?
You guys are great!
Thanks,
John
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Old January 17, 2012, 06:43 PM   #10
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I cleared the barrel channel on my 270 Win FN Deluxe, the barrel had been bedded all the way to the stock tip. I was not certain the rear lug was ever touching, but now it is.

After rebedding I took the thing to the range and accuracy is improved but it is a 2 MOA rifle now. I may change scopes and see if that improves anything, and I may add more clearance in the barrel channel.

I was disappointed with the velocities I got with my 130 Noslers’ and 55.0 grs H4350. I wanted 3000 fps and I did not get it. This lot of H4350 takes one more grain in the 30-06 to have the same velocities as IMR/AA4350. So maybe I could add a bit more. The only ammunition I got 3000 fps was Federal factory. My rifle shot best with the 150’s, and that velocity is disappointing. I get better velocities with 150’s in a 308 Win.

I am going to try 130 gr Federal Fusion bullets, AA4350 and AA2700.

Code:

FN Deluxe  24" Barrel 				
							
100 gr PSP Remington Factory					
							
29 Dec 2011 T =  50 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	3024			 			
Std Dev =	11			 			
ES =	27			 			
High =	3035			 			
Low =	3008			 			
N =	5						
							
							
130 gr R-P Bronze Point 55.0 grains H4350 wtd lot 22655 R-P cases WLR OAL 3.250"
							
29 Dec 2011 T =  50 °F 					
							
Ave Vel =	2732						
Std Dev =	36						
ES =	102						
High =	2790			 			
Low =	2688			 			
N =	6						
							
							
130 gr Nosler BT  55.0 grains H4350 wtd lot 22655 R-P cases WLR OAL 3.3"	
							
29 Dec 2011 T =  50 °F 					
							
Ave Vel =	2833		                                                    	 			
Std Dev =	15			 			
ES =	39			 			
High =	2848			 			
Low =	2809			 			
N =	5						
							
							
150 gr Speer Flat Base  53.0 grains H4350 wtd lot 22655 R-P cases WLR OAL 3.250"
							
29 Dec 2011 T =  51 °F 					
							
Ave Vel =	2704		                                                       	 			
Std Dev =	18			 			
ES =	49			 			
High =	2727			 			
Low =	2678		         	 			
N =	5						
							
							
130 gr Winchester Power Point SP Factory 				
							
29 Dec 2011 T =  51 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2789			 			
Std Dev =	17			 			
ES =	42			 			
High =	2809			 			
Low =	2767			 			
N =	5						
							
							
130 gr Federal Hi Shok Factory					
							
29 Dec 2011 T =  51 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	3028			 			
Std Dev =	38			 			
ES =	103			 			
High =	3088			 			
Low =	2985			 			
N =	5						

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Old January 17, 2012, 06:53 PM   #11
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I bedded my Ruger M77 and it greatly improved the accuracy of the rifle.

Due to the site limitation of six pictures per post, I am going to have to break this up, but you will see what it took.

I increased the diameter of the action screws. It took ten to twenty minutes of adjusting the drill table to get the angle perfect for the front action screw.

Back in the 70's, gunwriters were claiming that the angled front action screw would "draw" the action into the stock. The shills made enhaunced accuracy claims. All of which were and are rubbish. All that angled front action screw does is make it more difficult to bed this rifle.

The side to side dispersion in the unbedded target shows the action sliding around in the stock. Factory bedding was crude, huge, and sloppy. The angled front screw failed to keep the action into place. This got worse as the action pounded the sloppy wood bedding.



Drilled holes







I used Brownell's steel bed to make pillars. But first I coated the action screws with Johnson paste wax and increased their diameter with tape.




After letting steel bed cure, I was able to remove the trigger guard and action. Now I have a front pillar and a rear pillar which are level.



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Old January 17, 2012, 06:57 PM   #12
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Using a dremel tool, I routed a lot of wood from the front pillar and around the rear.

Having the pillars in place meant I was able to route out a lot of wood but the action would be level. I wanted a thick layer layer of epoxy under the action and behind the recoil lug. The thicker the layer the stiffer the bedding.





I mixed up white Marine Tex epoxy, just for the contrast to see what was going on. I used the action screws to draw the action into the stock and squeeze out excess Marine Tex. Many would consider this horrible practice, but that's what I did.



If I were paying for the work, I would expect something neater, and I would consider globs of dried epoxy on the stock, and grinding tool marks on the stock unacceptable. What I did was not pretty, but it works.





When I shoot this barrel out, I will probably try to find an aftermarket stock with a very high cheek piece, and have a professional bed the thing when a new barrel is added.

Then, and only then, will people ooh and aah over it.

Till then, I am shooting it with a duct taped tee shirt as a cheek piece.
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Old January 17, 2012, 07:02 PM   #13
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These are before and after targets, both at 100 yards.

The first target was just after acquiring the rifle. Notice the side to side movement on the target. At the time, I left things alone, but the more I shot it, the more side to side movement I got. The action was sliding around in the stock and got worse with time.

My bedding job really brought the group size down. The modern hammer forged Ruger barrels are much, much better than the old ones they bought from the low bidder. I talked to a barrel vendor who supplied Ruger barrels, and Ruger was buying the cheapest barrels they could.

But to make these Rugers shoot, you have to bed them.




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Old January 17, 2012, 08:26 PM   #14
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If your barrel is free floated now I would take strips of plastic tape and just stack them until you have the right contact at the end of the barrel. Then you are done and can leave the tape as the final shim. They will last forever.

Another thing I learned from guys in here was that you should tighten the angled screw tight first, then the rear screw tight and last the middle screw snug. If anyone doesn't think that's correct please chime in....
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Old January 17, 2012, 11:53 PM   #15
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oookay boys and girls, here's where Im at now with this thing.
I measured the clearance between the barrel and the stock which was around .045. I used cut up strips of card stock that measured appx .010 each to determine the appx clearance, and it took 4 strips of that to get a semi snug fit. I took the action and barrel off the stock, lightly sanded the channel where the barrel lays to just clean it a tad, got some acetone and paper towel and cleaned that up good. I mixed a small dab of JB Weld together and let that set up for a few minutes.
Meanwhile, I taped some masking tape to the inside edges as well as the outside of the forearm to prevent any excess JB Weld oozing out onto this new stock. I then wrapped the barrel with some Saran cling wrap to prevent any JB Weld from attaching itself there. I then sparingly laid my JB Weld into the front channel of the stock, keeping in mind it would ooze some once I laid the barrel in and tightened everything back up. I now have it all back together and will let this set up overnight to harden. If this thing needs a pressure point to shoot better now, here's its chance to shine! LOL
I'll post the after pics after the stuff cures overnight.
Thanks everyone!
John
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Old January 17, 2012, 11:57 PM   #16
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one last pic....
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Old January 18, 2012, 11:32 AM   #17
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Interesting idea for plastic wrap. Johnson paste wax is an excellent release agent. Rub it on, polish it smooth. I put it on stocks, metal, etc..
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Old January 18, 2012, 11:40 AM   #18
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I'm impressed!

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Old January 18, 2012, 12:11 PM   #19
johnmcgowan
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Thanks Jerry. Maybe save the congrats until we see if this helps cure my problem though
Keep your fingers crossed. After I get home tonight I will take it all apart and remove the saran wrap and see how the pressure point looks inside the barrel channel.
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Old January 18, 2012, 01:03 PM   #20
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Did you try any powders other than 4350? If not, I'd try a few (H4831 or IMR 4831, in particular) before I did all that other work. And did you vary the OAL of the round at all?

Oops, never mind. You already did some "that other work".
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Old January 18, 2012, 10:03 PM   #21
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last pic /update of the pressure point made from JB weld. I buttoned everything back up and let it cure overnite and here is how it came out. I took it back down then re-assembled it tonight and checked the clearance now 'tween the barrel and the forearm and using the .010 piece of card stock , its snug now !!! I can force it in somewhat but I think its going to be ok. Looks like it was made for it, lol .
The JB weld's heigth is halfway the heigth of the barrel and it craddles the barrel better than I expected. I wont really know until I go back out to shoot some more groups, hopefully that'll be soon.
I'll keep you guys posted on the results.
Thanks!!
John
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