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Old February 3, 2012, 04:50 PM   #1
speedycat
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stopped by off duty deputy at Wal-Mart

I was at Wal-Mart in Jackson County WV last night with a friend to pick up some 9mm. I was open carrying my G19 in its holster. We went back to sporting goods where a man with a young boy was talking to the cashier. The cashier stopped to assist me, I purchased my ammo, thanked the man and proceeded to leave when I heard an "excuse me!" I turned around and the man (in civilian clothes) had pulled out his wallet and flashed a badge at me. He wanted to see my concealed weapon permit and some ID. (note: you do not need a permit of any kind to OC in WV)

Regardless, I complied and gave him my papers. He also wanted me to remove my weapon from his holster. I slowly took it out, dropped the mag and took the round out of the chamber and handed it to him muzzle down and in slide lock. He called it in, ran my info and the serial on the gun. He kept saying how "odd" and "unusual" it was to see someone OC'ing. When he hung up I asked "Are you satisfied?" He said "Yes" and set my weapon on the counter. With his permission I reloaded my weapon and secured it in my holster.

I started to leave and he said "woah I'm not done with you yet!" I asked if I was being detained, to which he replied "No, I'm still checking you out" I asked again if I was being detained and he said "No" I asked if I was free to go and he again told me "No" I asked to see his badge again so I could get his name. He responded with "You damn sure can!" I can kick myself so hard for being unable to recall the name on the badge, but he was a Jackson County Deputy Sheriff. So I stood there and waited with him, his son, my friend and the cashier in very awkward and uncomfortable silence until his phone rang back and they told him I was indeed a law abiding citizen. I sure didn't feel like one during all this. I felt like I had done something wrong when I had not. It was an awful feeling. He told me I could go and to "stay out of trouble" I gathered my things and we left.


Is this a normal interaction with LE especially those who are off duty for people who OC? It was my first. I hope it's my last.
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Old February 3, 2012, 04:53 PM   #2
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File a complaint. too bad you didn't get his name/#

Cops carry a notepad for a reason, maybe we all should.

You may have a lawsuit on your hands. If you were within the law, it sounds like he violated your rights. But hey, what do i know.
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:07 PM   #3
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Sounds like he did the right thing to me, sounds like you did too.

Why open carry anyway, don't tell me just because you can

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Old February 3, 2012, 05:08 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedycat
Is this a normal interaction with LE especially those who are off duty for people who OC?
Your rights were violated and you should file a complaint. If open carry is legal, he had no justification to ask for your identification or your carry permit. He also had no justification to detain you, and if he said you were not free to leave you WERE detained.
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:08 PM   #5
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I got pulled over for speeding (doing 33 in a 30 ) back in Oct. The officer walks up to the car, I hand him my DL/CHL. He asked if I have a gun on me. I tell him yes, it's concealed IWB on my right side. He then tells me to put my hands on my head, opens my car door and tells me to slowly get outta the car. I do this, then he pushes me onto the side of my car, slaps handcuffs on me, disarms me and takes my handgun back to his car (I assume to run the serial number). After a couple mins, he comes back, my handgun unloaded, sets it in my pass. seat, un-cuffs me then gives me a warning for the speeding and tells me to have a nice day. The whole time he was just plain rude and pretty rough. I know alot of the LEOs here but not this one, I called his supervisor and made a report on him....haven't heard anything about it yet.
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:12 PM   #6
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I see two issues here, him stopping you in the first place, and not allowing you to leave when you weren't under arrest.

I also find it curious that he would give you back your pistol, and let you load and holster it, when he "wasn't done with you." What if he got the call back that you were a deranged serial killer...he just re-armed you.

Why would he let you lock and load if he wasn't finished?
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:13 PM   #7
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When were his rights violated? I have the right to drive down the street, and if a cop pulls me over they are not violating my rights.

If I was in the store and someone was walking around with a gun on his hip I would be concerned.
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:16 PM   #8
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comn-cents, if it's legal in WV (it is), and if the store hadn't posted nor asked him to leave, then why a) should you be concerned, and b) should a LEO stop him?

Not very common sensible to me...
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:19 PM   #9
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So I guessing people open carry all the time? I bet not!
If it looks out of the ordinary and dangerous I'm glad he stopped and checked the guy out. If I was walking around with a gun on my hip, I would expect to be stopped. That's why I got a CCW. Why so surprised?

Common Sense says don't do it, legal or not!
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:21 PM   #10
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comn-cents, that wouldn't be common sense for an area that has lawful and common open carry. I wouldn't be concerned at all, but here in AZ we've had lawful open carry for 100 years. No big deal. If I had an off duty officer pull a stunt like that I would have eaten him for breakfast.
"Am I being detained?"
"No, I'm..."
I am already walking away. If he escalated after that, the lawsuit would've been enormous. As stated, if he handed me back my sidearm, I'm done and leaving.
Almost every department states officers have to give name and badge number when requested. There is a record of when he called and ran your name, and that he authorized it - if not, he may have been impersonating...
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:21 PM   #11
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comn-cents, avoid southwest Colorado, most of Arizona, large swaths of the south and southeast. You'd be uncomfortable.
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:24 PM   #12
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He never refused to give badge or name. The guy just did not remember the name or number.
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:25 PM   #13
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Either:
  1. You're free to leave;
  2. You're being detained; or
  3. You're under arrest.
If you're not free to leave, you must be one of the other two.
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:26 PM   #14
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He wouldn't let him leave. That's a detention.

He had no basis under WV law for the detention. That's pushing the borders of false arrest.

You have no inherent right to not be uncomfortable.
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:27 PM   #15
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You have no inherent right to not be uncomfortable.
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:31 PM   #16
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comn-cents, which of the following does not make somebody uncomfortable?

1) a gay couple kissing in public;

2) a couple teenagers in long black trenchcoats;

3) a group of unsmiling bikers;

4) mimes;

5) a legal open carrier?

Of those, are there any other than the legal, open carrier that you think a LEO should arbitrarily stop, then detain while denying he was, in fact, detaining them?

My guess would be, no.

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO NOT BE UNCOMFORTABLE; YOUR RIGHTS END WHERE MINE START.
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:35 PM   #17
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that's all I got for you.
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Old February 3, 2012, 05:45 PM   #18
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Well you have a permit for concealed carry but open carry. You can't blame a cop for giving you some attention when you could have otherwise avoided it.

The police enforce the law and are concerned with public safety. I would be more worried if an officer didn't stop and interview the only person in a public setting with a pistol. JMHO
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Old February 3, 2012, 06:15 PM   #19
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It seems that asking to see your CCW was fair. But everything after that was crossing a line.
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Old February 3, 2012, 07:15 PM   #20
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IMHO No harm no foul.

If the LE saw an armed man how does he know he isn't a restricted person??
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Old February 3, 2012, 07:56 PM   #21
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People are making statements about reasonableness.

Is it reasonable to randomly detain and question someone who is engaged in legal activity?

You say well, the OP was carrying a handgun. Yes he was and it was perfectly legal to do so and he was breaking no law. Nor according to him was he doing anything out of the ordinary.

Is it reasonable to stop someone who is driving a car that isn't speeding, hasn't broken any other law and ask to see their license? What ever happened to probable cause?

Another thing, how many criminals open carry their handguns while buying ammunition? If the OP's story is correct the deputy acted wrongly, as well as foolishly by giving the OP his handgun back before he was certain he wasn't a criminal. Sounds like he is in desperate need of more training.
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Old February 3, 2012, 10:37 PM   #22
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It appears one individual is expressing a personal opinion as fact and unwilling to discuss it rationally. To answer in the same vein...whatever.

Glad I live in Free AZ. I have been asked about my sidearm when open carrying by law enforcement, usually what caliber and what ammo do I like. I do carry concealed mostly now, but that's my personal choice, not one to foist off on everyone else when open carry is both legal and unremarkable in this state.
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Old February 3, 2012, 10:49 PM   #23
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Another thing I just thought of...what if the alleged deputy was correct and OP was a dangerous criminal?

Deputy: 'Excuse me, I'm a deputy lets see your CCW permit'

OP: 'Okay' he says, but instead draws handgun and starts firing.

The whole situation was handled wrong. I'll say it again, the alleged deputy needs more training, or better/different training as the case may be.
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Old February 3, 2012, 10:51 PM   #24
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The Officer was out of line.

The question is do you want to become a target for enforcement actions.

Local LEOs especially Sheriff Departments can make your life a nightmare if they want to.

I know this from personnal experience.

In a relatively rural county you have little recourse.
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Old February 3, 2012, 10:59 PM   #25
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Sounds like a new officer, perhaps one who hasn't lived in WV for very long if he is that unfamiliar OC. I think proper procedure if he was detaining you, because basically that is what he did would have been to have a uniformed officer come and handle it. I think the cop overreacted and violated your rights.


To the guy who was cuffed like a criminal while the cop ran your gun, IMO you should have also filed a complaint. Typically if a cop cuffs you, he is going to arrest or at least "detain" you. I can understand disarming you but the cuffing was unnecessary, he doesn't cuff drivers he just pulls over. He cuffs drivers he suspects of doing something illegal.

Sadly this is why we HAVE guns in America, because without them by now in our 200+ year history we would probably resemble at best something like Belarus or Egypt without that last "check and balance" to the system.



On what yet some others have said about cops making your life a living hell: This is true. We have many many examples of this. A recent example was this woman who was a police dispatcher of some kind. Magically, someone starts writing her ex-husband dozens of bogus tickets. For places where his car wasn't, for things like parking too close to the curb, too far from the curb, wheels turned out away from the curb. Every frivolous thing you can imagine. Sometimes multiples per day. No one seems to have ever "solved" how this all happened but you connect the dots on your own. After several years of fighting the poor victim here finally got all of the tickets thrown out. If the cops or someone connected to the cops wants to make your life a living hell; they don't need firearms issues to do so.

Last edited by Patriot86; February 3, 2012 at 11:06 PM.
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