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Old January 17, 2012, 06:36 PM   #26
Moyer
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Distance is very important to consider here. Large open rooms (or outdoor/garage situations) might require #1 or 00. In my apartment building (and many small homes), 20ft is much farther than any realistic shot. Heck, 6 ft is probably farther than any defensive shot would be in my tiny apartment. Now, at that distance, I don't think there is a commonly sold 12ga round that would not drop a man with a center mass shot.
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Old January 17, 2012, 06:45 PM   #27
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moyer
Heck, 6 ft is probably farther than any defensive shot would be in my tiny apartment. Now, at that distance, I don't think there is a commonly sold 12ga round that would not drop a man with a center mass shot.
You'd think that and yet there is a fairly decent list of people who have survived a shotgun blast in the torso and even head at that range and survived. In pretty much every one of those stories, the shotgun was loaded with birdshot.
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Old January 17, 2012, 10:19 PM   #28
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I would think that 2-3/4" 00 buckshot (non-magnum) would get the
job done.
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Old January 17, 2012, 10:48 PM   #29
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00 buck here...just because it's the only buck that wally world has on hand.
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Old January 18, 2012, 12:54 PM   #30
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"I know this will make me look like a freak but I like Dixie triball. I all so like the Winchester PDX1-12 but I like the triball more.

Nothing like 3 60caliber balls to stop some one.

I feel I need to mention I would not recommend this if you have neighbors. "

I've never used the tri-ball, but I usually stuff a round or that Winchester PDXI-12 in between some 00 Buckshot when I have to clear the house. I don't think that it's strictly necessary (as in, I probably won't need anything more than the buckshot), but you never know.

The PDXI-12 will pretty much incapacitate someone, like...NOW. There is something to be said for that, home invasions aren't super common in my area, but when they happen it's usually someone hoped up on meth or crack, I don't need them to stay standing long enough to put two 9MM's in my chest. It is hard to beat a 1 ounce slug plus 3 rounds of plated buckshot when you need them down now.
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Old January 18, 2012, 02:02 PM   #31
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If you know a reloader who will make up some loads for you, Buck and ball is an excellent HD load.
Using reloads, or exotic loads, for HD may be effective; however, with liberal attorneys, you may be opening Pandora's box. I'd use a factory load that duplicates what your local LE uses.
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Old January 18, 2012, 06:07 PM   #32
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Stop to think

Military and police use of shotguns have different tactical considerations than those of the average homeowner. If over penetration could be a problem, that rules out large buckshot such as "0", "'00" or "000". At typical distances within the home, even #4 shot (not #4 buck) is very deadly. A standard load of #4 buck, in 12 gauge, has 27 pellets, each of .22 caliber. Going back to #4 shot, a two-ounce turkey load of #4 shot will blow a hole in someone large enough to see through.

This topic is beaten to death just about every week. If you center the pattern on a home invader, it pretty much won't matter what size buckshot you use. You'll need private cleaning contractors who specialize in crime scene cleanup to remove the bloody mess from the walls, ceiling and floors.
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Old January 18, 2012, 07:20 PM   #33
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Smaller shot is safer for innocent family members and Bubba as well. If you want to turn your shotgun into a spittin' distance weapon, that's your call. Many feel that way.

00 buck works just fine and always has, and is effective at any range likely encountered in the average home. It will also defeat certain cover, such couchs and chairs.

It's a trade off. Make your choice, understand the avantages and disadvantages, and take your seat.
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Old January 18, 2012, 07:25 PM   #34
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#6 birdshot. The same as you hunt bunnys with. It won't go through a wall and hurt a neighbor or family member in the same manner a slug or Buckshot will.
If you have any doubts about birdshot, go fire a shell or two into a gallon jug filled with water at 7 yards or less. Buck and slugs are TOO powerful to use inside your home. Birdshot is fine. Test it.
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Old January 18, 2012, 08:58 PM   #35
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Quote:
You'd think that and yet there is a fairly decent list of people who have survived a shotgun blast in the torso and even head at that range and survived. In pretty much every one of those stories, the shotgun was loaded with birdshot.
I appreciate the info, but NONE of those stories prove your point. Many of them are lacking important details like range or the angle of the shot. 2 were with a .410. One appears to have been close range, but was a shot to the jaw so I can only assume it was from a side angle (the shot destroyed her jaw and the murderer killed at least 2 other people with one shot each in the same house).

I actually know 3 people personally who have survived 12ga birdshot, but that proves nothing because they were all at much much greater distances than a home defense situation.
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Old January 18, 2012, 09:00 PM   #36
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moyer
I appreciate the info, but NONE of those stories prove your point.
Really? Which one of those do you think would have survived the same shot with buckshot?
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Old January 18, 2012, 09:20 PM   #37
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Instead of swapping stories, we can just look at birdshot vs buckshot penetration tests.

12 gauge Wound Profiles

Its abundantly clear from the above test results that birdshot is inadequate for defense. There are also several other tests that can be found on the net, all showing the same kind of results.

A very small percentage of people continue to insist that bird shot is adequate for defense. Although they have no evidence to support their claims.
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Old January 18, 2012, 10:01 PM   #38
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Hey, use slugs, buckshot, a .308, .300 Magnum, hell, use a grenade if you will.

I'm concerned about family in the next room, neighbors, liability, etc., not "Internet tests". My "evidence" comes from the field, not the internet...LOL! I have hunted and trapped my entire life and have seen what birdshot can do at close range (under 7 yards) out of a 12 Ga shotgun, so I'll stick with my birdshot.

Turn off your laptops this weekend, go out to a gravel pit, and SHOOT a load of birdshot at 4 or 5 yards (avg. living room distance might be closer to 3 yards), into a gallon jug filled with water. Test #6 birdshot out of a 12 Ga at close range. No, its not a slug or buckshot load, but it WILL leave a big, NASTY rat hole. You may just change your mind about what you read on the "net" from some Mall Ninja, or at least question as to if the person posting spends more time online than on the range.

Last edited by shurshot; January 18, 2012 at 10:23 PM.
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Old January 18, 2012, 11:39 PM   #39
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Really? Which one of those do you think would have survived the same shot with buckshot?
Don't try and change the argument. You're saying that 12ga birdshot is not deadly at less than 10 feet. NONE of those stories even come close to proving that.

I'm sure there are tens of hundreds of people who have survived buckshot wounds too, but that doesn't prove crap.
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Old January 19, 2012, 12:00 AM   #40
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A very small percentage of people continue to insist that bird shot is adequate for defense. Although they have no evidence to support their claims.
Sir, please look in the link you yourself posted at the #5 birdshot. I'm skeptical about how far away the barrel was from the gelatin in order to make a wound channel over four inches wide, but either way, that's a recipe for death. Almost all of the pellets penetrated 7-9 inches.
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Old January 19, 2012, 12:55 AM   #41
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People like Dr. Martin Fackler and Duncan MacPherson are not mall ninjas.

In 1959 Duncan MacPherson developed a new guidance technique and the equations that were used to guide the Mercury astronauts into orbit on the Atlas launch vehicle. These equations were modified under his supervision to control Gemini and, later, Apollo launches. Both his BS and MS degrees were won at MIT's Honors Course in Mechanical Engineering.

In the early sixties he began to study and research trajectory dynamics. He wrote the book, "Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting From Wound Trauma."

If you want to dismiss his work as "Internet" that's fine - but it doesn't lessen his actual credibility or expertise in reality.

The people who read this forum can decide if they want to listen to people like Dr. Martin Fackler and Duncan MacPherson's recomendations based on medical and scientific research, or if they want to listen to the advise of people who base their experience on having shot ducks, turkeys, deer and water jugs.
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Old January 19, 2012, 12:56 AM   #42
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Well I'm no sharpshooter but I will take buckshot over bird shot. Have 0 evidence to say why, but IF I have to shoot a person in my home, they are taking a long nap. My thought with #4 is if it can rip through a 40lb coyote at 20yards then something like a human chest, being just about as thick should have a decent wound to deal with, 41 pieces of 20caliber lead would drop me all day (odds are SOMETHING is hitting an artery/spine). And Now lets switch the debate to 2 3/4 or 3inch shells.
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Old January 19, 2012, 01:02 AM   #43
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The BB calibration shots for the blocks of gelatin shown in the Shotgun World tests penetrated rather deeply, and the results weren't normalized (using the formula that Duncan MacPherson devised).

So what that means is that the results for birdshot would have been even more dismal if the blocks had been the correct density.
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Old January 19, 2012, 01:14 AM   #44
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Did the blocks have bone? Cause bone is important
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Old January 19, 2012, 07:15 AM   #45
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moyer
Don't try and change the argument. You're saying that 12ga birdshot is not deadly at less than 10 feet. NONE of those stories even come close to proving that.
If you think that is my argument, you misunderstand me. As I recall, the argument was "there is not a commonly sold 12ga round that will not drop a man with a center mass shot.". My answer is that even with a center mass shot, people do take 12 ga rounds and not only keep going for awhile; but survive. I then gave links showing this and noted that as shot size increases, there are fewer and fewer of these types of stories.

That isn't to say that 12ga birdshot at household distances can't kill you. It most certainly can. However, people take center mass shots of birdshot (a commonly sold 12ga round) and do not drop. Those stories get less common as shot size increases, so the type of 12ga round used does matter.
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Old January 19, 2012, 09:11 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shurshot
I'm concerned about family in the next room, neighbors, liability, etc., not "Internet tests".
Where I live, the "next room" would be two pieces of 5/8" drywall (powdered gypsum backed by paper) and if you are lucky, maybe some fiberglass insulation blown in between the sheets. Something that won't penetrate that barrier is extremely weak. Now presumably the reason you are using a firearm in the house to begin with is that there is a threat that is even more dangerous than you shooting a firearm in your house. So if you have that kind of threat, it would seem that stopping that threat promptly is of high importance.

Quote:
My "evidence" comes from the field, not the internet...LOL! I have hunted and trapped my entire life and have seen what birdshot can do at close range (under 7 yards) out of a 12 Ga shotgun, so I'll stick with my birdshot.
Hunted a lot of 200lb mammals with birdshot during that time?

Quote:
Turn off your laptops this weekend, go out to a gravel pit, and SHOOT a load of birdshot at 4 or 5 yards (avg. living room distance might be closer to 3 yards), into a gallon jug filled with water. Test #6 birdshot out of a 12 Ga at close range. No, its not a slug or buckshot load, but it WILL leave a big, NASTY rat hole. You may just change your mind about what you read on the "net" from some Mall Ninja, or at least question as to if the person posting spends more time online than on the range.
"Penetration in rows of water-filled, 2-quart (1.89 liter) cartons is approximately 1.5 times that which would occur in 10% 4 degrees C gelatin. Since a U.S. 2-qt. carton is 3.75 inches (9.525 cm) wide and 3.75/1.5 = 2.5, one simply multiples the number of the carton in the row from which a test bullet was recovered by 2.5 to determine approximate gelatin penetration in inches or by 6.35 for the reading in centimeter. For example, a shot recovered from carton #6 would correspond to a gelatin penetration depth of approximately 15 inches (38.1 cm). (Cotey, Gus Jr.:"Number 1 Buckshot, the Number 1 Choice." Wound Ballistics Review, 2(4): p. 11; 1996.)

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs12.htm

So using this formula, we find that your results are very close to ballistic gelatin results. You got penetration of about 5" at close range. #6 birdshot at 10' from a 12ga typically penetrates about 5-6" with most of the shot at 3-5" in bare gelatin (i.e. no bones, no jacket, no drywall, no skin, no clothing). So using 12ga #6, you have a load that is effective under the following conditions:

1. You attacker is not behind ANY kind of cover. Not even a couch, appliance or drywall.
2. Your attacker is 12' or closer.
3. Your attacker is lightly clothed, or even better, naked.
4. Your attacker is the same size or smaller as the average male (about 19" shoulder to shoulder and about 9" front to back)
5. Your attacker is facing you with his hands out to the sides providing an unobstructed center mass shot.

If any of those conditions change, 12ga #6 birdshot loses a lot of effectiveness. You've made a choice to limit the potential liability by limiting the effectiveness of the firearm to a fairly narrow range so you don't have to worry as much about shoot or don't shoot decisions in a high-stress scenario. That is certainly one way to approach the problem. However, I would submit that making the firearm more effective, getting training, and utilizing a little prior planning to identify safe backgrounds and no-shoot backgrounds gives you more options and ultimately makes your family safer by being more likely to stop the threat that made you decide that firing a gun inside the house was less dangerous than not firing to begin with.
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Old January 19, 2012, 04:34 PM   #47
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Quote:
A very small percentage of people continue to insist that bird shot is adequate for defense. Although they have no evidence to support their claims.
I know 2 guys shot themselves wit ha shotgun and both are alive now. Both shot themselves over a gal too (not the same gal) both hit the stomach area wit hthe barrel close to their body both used 6 shot.

I prefer buckshot or at the very least number 2 plated goose shot.
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Old January 19, 2012, 04:52 PM   #48
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The PDX1 Defender 1oz Slug looks nice. Problem is you are limited to a single projectile in a high stress situation. My jury is still out on it, and I will need to play with it to decide. Until then the standard PDX1 Disks/buck are my option.

Here is the PDX1 Defender slug being tested a few days ago at SHOT with Rob Pincus and Winchester

http://youtu.be/v1PCBOzgD8c
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Old January 19, 2012, 06:06 PM   #49
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I agree that Buckshot or slugs has a better chance of stopping a bad guy, as oppossed to birdshot... no dispute here guys. However, to read many of your posts, you make birdshot at close range sound as effective as a Crosman BB gun. Anyone who has fired birdshot at targets at close range (under 7 yards), be they water jugs, lumber, foxes, turkeys or woodchucks, understands how lethal birdshot is, and while it won't penetrate like buckshot or slugs, it is nowhere near as weak and ineffective as some on here are saying. This makes a few of us wonder, given some of the high posts counts that some of you have racked up in such a short amount of time, if perhaps too much time is spent on the internet and not nearly enough on the gun range. ?? Books and numbers are great for armchair commandos, but getting outside and testing the rounds yourself is much more fun, educational and reality based. Just saying...LOL! Load what you will. Be safe.

Last edited by shurshot; January 19, 2012 at 06:41 PM.
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Old January 19, 2012, 06:26 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shurshot
I agree that Buckshot or slugs has a better chance of stopping a bad guy, as oppossed to birdshot... no dispute here guys.
So then why not use and advocate the use of, the indisputably more effective loading?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shurshot
However, to read many of your posts, you make birdshot at close range sound as effective as a Crosman BB gun.
Interesting impression you gathered. When I reread the posts in this thread I can't find anything even close to suggesting that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shurshot
Book and numbers are great for armchair commandos, but getting outside and testing the rounds yourself is more fun and reality based. Just saying...LOL! Load what you will. Be safe.
You ever tested birdshot on a drugged up, psycho home invader?

You ever hunted 150-400 pound wild boar with birdshot?

Ever killed a deer with birdshot?

Didn't think so.

Read,or reread post #46 Bart does a good job of laying the facts out.
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