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Old January 17, 2012, 10:52 PM   #1
Mikef262
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Gun Ownership Questions

Hey guys

I live in missouri and am currently 14. I am under the impression that you can own rifles and shotguns at the age of 18 and handguns at 21. I work as an umpire so I attain money pretty quickly. My Dad and I have a system I guess I will call it where I give him my money and he goes and buys the handgun or rifle I want. I currently have 3 rifles and 5 handguns. I am intrested to know if I will be able to leagly aquire these guns from my Dad at the age of 18
Thanks
Mike
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Old January 17, 2012, 11:03 PM   #2
Nitesites
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Mike, no offense but I think it would be highly inappropriate for any of us to give you any advice. You father is who you should seek your advice from.
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Old January 17, 2012, 11:17 PM   #3
Mikef262
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@ Nitesites He says the he is not sure. Trust me I have asked him many times and he says I will just wait til I am 21 unless its legal to own them at 18 just not buy from an FFL.
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Old January 17, 2012, 11:46 PM   #4
Aguila Blanca
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Mike -

You're not going to be happy with this, but you should be very careful how you describe "your" guns and how they were purchased. Since at 14 you are not allowed to possess guns in your state (if I understand your question correctly), your giving your father money to buy guns for you is what the BATFE calls a "straw purchase," and it is a Federal felony.

Once you are old enough to possess firearms, your father can give them to you. Each one will be considered a transfer and should go through a licensed firearms dealer (FFL) unless your state allows direct, face-to-face private transfers without going through an FFL.
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Old January 18, 2012, 12:02 AM   #5
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At age 18 the federal government is fine with you owning rifles, shotguns and handguns. It allows you to buy long guns from gun shops at that age. At 18 you can buy handguns through private sales, but not from gun shops.

It is possible that various states have other restrictions you should look into.
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Old January 18, 2012, 12:42 AM   #6
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I don't think the black helicopters, and men in dark glasses are going to come after you and your dad because he has purchased guns for you, and there is no need to go through a licensed dealer for a "transfer" in Missouri.



Quote:
Unlawful transfer of weapons, penalty.
571.060. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful transferof weapons if he:

(1) Knowingly sells, leases, loans, gives away or delivers afirearm or ammunition for a firearm to any person who, under theprovisions of section 571.070, is not lawfully entitled topossess such;

(2) Knowingly sells, leases, loans, gives away or delivers ablackjack to a person less than eighteen years old without theconsent of the child's custodial parent or guardian, orrecklessly, as defined in section 562.016, RSMo, sells, leases,loans, gives away or delivers any firearm to a person less than eighteen years old without the consent of the child's custodialparent or guardian; provided, that this does not prohibit thedelivery of such weapons to any peace officer or member of thearmed forces or national guard while performing his officialduty; or


Some reading for you on the Federal law:http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-i-5300-2.pdf

From NRA-ILA website:http://www.nraila.org/issues/factsheets/read.aspx?id=43
(As mentioned, disregard the state section about the permit to acquire)


Quote:
Age Restrictions On The Purchase And Possession Of Firearms

The purchase, sale, possession and transportation of firearms in the United States are regulated by tens of thousands of federal and state laws and local ordinances. Many of these regulations impose greater restrictions upon persons below certain ages, with age cut-offs ranging from as high as 21 years of age to as young as 12.

Most federal laws regulating firearms are included in Title 18 of the U.S. Code -- the Gun Control Act (GCA, 1968) as amended by various subsequent laws, including the Firearms Owners` Protection Act (1986), the Youth Handgun Safety Act (1994), the Gun-Free School Zones Act (1996) and other laws. Details on federal firearm laws are available from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. (www.atf.treas.gov)

Federal law imposes the following restrictions aimed at younger persons:

A person must be 21 years of age to purchase a handgun or handgun ammunition, and 18 years of age to buy a rifle or shotgun or ammunition, from a retail firearm dealer. (GCA, 1968)

A person under age 18 may not possess a handgun or handgun ammunition, and it is illegal for a person to provide a handgun or handgun ammunition to a person under age 18, except for target shooting, hunting, or certain other exempted purposes. (Youth Handgun Safety Act, 1994)

It is a federal felony to provide false information (such as lying about one`s age) to a firearm dealer, to deceive the dealer into selling a firearm to a person not entitled to make the purchase. (GCA, 1968)

Regardless of age it is illegal to possess a firearm on or within 1,000 feet of school property, with limited exceptions. (Gun-Free School Zones Act, 1996)
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Old January 18, 2012, 05:47 AM   #7
hardworker
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Don't worry, the FBI isn't going to bust down your door like some on here seem to think. I was in the same boat. My dad bought most of my guns for me growing up. Granted, this is VA. There's nothing to stop him from "selling" you the guns when you turn 18. Just fill out the applicable paperwork, if any, and you're good to go.
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Old January 18, 2012, 08:31 AM   #8
Mikef262
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Well I suppose I should have been more clear. There legaly not my guns there my Dads. Plus its not like I have access to them.
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Old January 18, 2012, 10:28 AM   #9
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Mike F.,
Welcome to TFL. This is a great place to meet other who shoot and enjoy firearms. I have made some great friends on here and I know if I ask a question, they can help me get the answer, or pretty close to the answer.

I used to take my nephew to the gun stores and ask him which one he wanted. He would point it out and I would buy it. It was a gift, but one which he could not take possession of until he was 18.

He is 20 now and he takes me to the gun store and asks which one I want. You can buy a gun as a gift, so long as the person who it is a gift for can legally accept the gift.

You are right about the handguns. 21 is the legal age. 18 for rifles and shotguns.

If you really want to do something challenging and save money in the long run, take up reloading.
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Old January 18, 2012, 10:35 AM   #10
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Quote:
If you really want to do something challenging and save money in the long run, take up reloading.
There ya go. Hey you have 7 years before you can own one but by then you can have more ammo than the US army. Welcome to the site.
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Old January 18, 2012, 04:43 PM   #11
Mikef262
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Thanks for the answers guys! I (my Dad with my money) have started stockpiling .223,7.62x29, .40, 9mm, and 22's. The next big amount of money I come into I will be taking a trip to the gun shop and buying some .38's.
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Old January 18, 2012, 05:25 PM   #12
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Cheapshooter, his dad can buy him gifts, yes.

He cannot legally pay his dad to buy the guns, as they then are no longer gifts, but straw purchases.
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Old January 18, 2012, 06:24 PM   #13
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
Cheapshooter, his dad can buy him gifts, yes.

He cannot legally pay his dad to buy the guns, as they then are no longer gifts, but straw purchases.
^^^ This.

I thought I said that, but I guess I wasn't clear enough.

From the original post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikef262
My Dad and I have a system I guess I will call it where I give him my money and he goes and buys the handgun or rifle I want. I currently have 3 rifles and 5 handguns.
That IS a straw purchase. Period.
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Old January 18, 2012, 06:46 PM   #14
Tom Servo
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Blanca is correct. The situation described is a straw purchase, and what the OP is doing is illegal.

Quote:
Don't worry, the FBI isn't going to bust down your door like some on here seem to think.
They're probably not going to do so for unpaid parking tickets, either. That still doesn't make it legal.
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Old January 18, 2012, 07:12 PM   #15
hermannr
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Hej Mikef.. I will reitterate a bit....it is not legal for someone (ie anyone that cannot posses a firearm do to age or other disability) to purchase a firearm "for them with their money".

This is what the ATF and everyone else will tell you...and it is true. However, who's money actually went to purchase anything, when someone's guardian (like your father) does the purchasing is not what the INTENT of this rule was.

It would be best if you did not discribe your father's transactions in the manner you have, on a public forum. It would be much better that your father bought several firearms for himself. OK?

BTW: You can own and carry in Montana at 14....
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Old January 18, 2012, 07:24 PM   #16
MLeake
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Federal law applies to purchase from Federal licensees, as far as this discussion goes. State laws will apply as far as minimum age of ownership.

Federally, from the NRA-ILA website, http://www.nraila.org/issues/factsheets/read.aspx?id=43 ,

Quote:
Federal law imposes the following restrictions aimed at younger persons:

A person must be 21 years of age to purchase a handgun or handgun ammunition, and 18 years of age to buy a rifle or shotgun or ammunition, from a retail firearm dealer. (GCA, 1968)

A person under age 18 may not possess a handgun or handgun ammunition, and it is illegal for a person to provide a handgun or handgun ammunition to a person under age 18, except for target shooting, hunting, or certain other exempted purposes. (Youth Handgun Safety Act, 1994)

It is a federal felony to provide false information (such as lying about one`s age) to a firearm dealer, to deceive the dealer into selling a firearm to a person not entitled to make the purchase. (GCA, 1968)

Regardless of age it is illegal to possess a firearm on or within 1,000 feet of school property, with limited exceptions. (Gun-Free School Zones Act, 1996)
The same website says this about Missouri:

Quote:
Missouri - To obtain a handgun the buyer must produce a permit to purchase which is issued by the sheriff of the county where the applicant resides. A permit to purchase shall be issued by the sheriff if all the statements in the application are true, and the applicant:
1. is at least 21, a citizen of the U.S. and has resided in the state for at least 6 months.
2. has not been convicted of or currently charged with or indicted for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
3. is not a fugitive from justice;
4. has not been dishonorably discharged from the U.S. armed forces;
5. is not habitually in an intoxicated or drugged condition; and
6. is not currently adjudged mentally incompetent and has not been committed to a mental health facility.
Note that this does not address long arms.

LCAV is an anti outfit, and their website specifically complains that Missouri has no minimum age limit for possession of rifles and shotguns, but praises Missouri for setting a minimum purchase age for rifles and shotguns at 18.
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Old January 18, 2012, 07:28 PM   #17
Brian Pfleuger
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That's an interesting twist on a straw purchase. The kid gives the dad the money but the dad buys and KEEPS the guns. Seems more like the money is a gift to dad that he uses to buy guns that his minor child is allowed to shoot.

Especially since the kid says "...if I will be able to legally acquire these guns from my dad when I turn 18..."

He obviously doesn't consider the guns to be his or he wouldn't need to "acquire" them.

If I give my father $400 and he buys a gun with it, knowing that he's going to give me the gun in 5 years, is that a straw purchase?
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Old January 18, 2012, 09:02 PM   #18
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Good for you, Mikef262! I'm glad to see you're earning money already, and I hope and trust you're already on your way toward being a safe shooter. More power to you, young man!
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Old January 18, 2012, 09:53 PM   #19
kinggabby
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Just what ever you do follow the law and be good so when you do come of age you can be legal and walk in and buy a gun.
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Old January 18, 2012, 11:01 PM   #20
Art Eatman
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Per Post #8, only the father has custody, and is the legal owner.

Ownership can transfer for the long guns at age 18, and for the handguns at age 21.

State laws apply to usage for somebody who's 14. E.g., handgun only when accompanied by an adult. That sort of thing.

But the original question has been answered.
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Old January 18, 2012, 11:17 PM   #21
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
Especially since the kid says "...if I will be able to legally acquire these guns from my dad when I turn 18..."

He obviously doesn't consider the guns to be his or he wouldn't need to "acquire" them.
But he DOES consider them to be his guns. Again quoting from the original post:

Quote:
I currently have 3 rifles and 5 handguns.
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Old January 19, 2012, 12:22 AM   #22
SHNOMIDO
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I have a certain .410 shotgun that my dad bought for me before i was born.

better call BATFE. that's a straw purchase if i ever heard it.

Just saying, theres a difference between yours and "yours". I think its pretty common for a family member to buy a firearm for someone else. Without registration whos to say who officially owns it.

If the firearm isnt easily accessible, who cares if a kid says this 10/22 is mine and this 10/22 is my dads.

Its more a designation of who uses which one than who legally owns each one. Its clear the head of the household is the owner.

NOW- on the other side of the fence:

I would be careful about the whole giving your dad money to buy firearms for you. Thats weird in my book.

If i were you I'd put that money in a bank account and let it roll interest until you turn 18, and borrow your dad's guns, under his supervision, in the meantime.
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Old January 19, 2012, 12:32 AM   #23
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Quote:
I have a certain .410 shotgun that my dad bought for me before i was born. better call BATFE. that's a straw purchase if i ever heard it.
No, that would qualify as a gift, since he purchased it with his own money. Had he purchased it with money you gave him, it would qualify as a straw purchase.

(Such an explanation involves time travel, and that just makes my head hurt, so we'll skip it.)

One of the elements of a straw purchase has nothing to do with the eventual recipient, but with whose money it's being bought. The OP's description of the situation is a classic straw purchase, yours is a gift. It seems a small distinction, but in the eyes of the law, it isn't.
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Old January 19, 2012, 08:41 AM   #24
Uncle Buck
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The reference for Missouri which states you need the sheriff to approve all purchases is no longer valid.

When I first came to Missouri, this was a true statement. I can not recall exactly when this changed, but now you go to the gun store, pick out which gun you want (pistol or rifle/shotgun), do the paperwork and if approved, take it home with you.

Guys, I really think you are picking apart apples and oranges. Mike could (Should) have been a little clearer in his post, but the way it works with Mike and his Dad is: Dad has the final say so on these guns. Mike does not have access to these guns with-out dads permission. (He can only take them out when he is under the supervision of dad or one of his uncles.) Dad could sell them at anytime. Legally the guns are Dads.

Mike says they are his guns, i.e., When talking with his friends about his guns, he says "Well, I have this cool pistol...." If his friends want to see the cool pistol, they have to wait for dad to come home. Dad is going to give him the guns when he becomes of legal age.

Just like my nephew who told everyone about his gun. It is amazing how much better he takes care of "His" guns than he does mine.

He is not 18. His father remains in possession of the guns. I understand what most of you are saying, but this is so gray as to be almost white. If my nephew gave me money to buy a gun for him, that would be different, because he does not live with me.

Please take in to account that Mike is 14 years old. Most 14 year olds, although smart, do not understand the nuances of the English Language (Heck, I have trouble with it!) nor the nuances of the law (I have even more trouble understanding this!).

I just do not want Mike to get scared off of TFL. We all have the oppurtunity to increase his knowledge and welcome another young shooter in to our hobby. I PM'd Mike and explained some things about Missouri and Federal Law. Please give Mike the benefit of the doubt here and remember he is young (and impressionabled).
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Last edited by Uncle Buck; January 19, 2012 at 08:58 AM.
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Old January 19, 2012, 01:19 PM   #25
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Buck
Please give Mike the benefit of the doubt here and remember he is young (and impressionabled).
I think we all understand that and I think all responses to him have been with the intention of keeping him (and his father) out of prison.

If nothing else, one hopes he is learning that words have meanings, and (like the proverbial e-mail once you hit SEND), what you post on the Internet is pretty much out there for the world to see. So when posting on the Internet, it's never a good idea to be in a hurry and post a partial version.

Compare what his original post said to the version of custody of the guns in your post, for example. When this discussion began, ALL we knew was what was in the original post.
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