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Old January 15, 2012, 05:38 PM   #26
MLeake
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So you couldn't hit a dog? Could you at least menace it, and make it think you could?

If so, that is much better than a boot. At least, the results aren't as immediately bad, if the dog bites the offending object.
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Old January 15, 2012, 05:53 PM   #27
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Could do. The fact that i am 50 and have never being attacked by a dog its not top on my list of things to worry about. If i was concerned about getting attacked by a dog a walking stick with a heavy end on it would do the job.

PS. Had to look up shillelagh knew it was a stick of some sort.
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Old January 15, 2012, 06:25 PM   #28
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And you being a son of Ireland, and all... begorrah...

Anyway, the OP just had a friend and neighbor attacked by a dog, so it's a more acute concern for him.
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Old January 15, 2012, 06:50 PM   #29
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A walking stick has always worked for me. There's very few dogs that haven''t been hit with a stick during their lives, and they know that a stick can hurt them. Facing them, and standing your ground can go a long way too. They can sense fear.
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Old January 16, 2012, 10:30 AM   #30
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Thanks guys. My friend is sore today and doin well. She wants to learn more about the pepper spray.

I am curious if anyone knows how well an OC Gel works? The reason I say this is because it is also good for people. Gel is more of a contact type, and not really inhaled, but it is very easy to aim.

I am also going to recomend a stick. I actually do have access to cattleprods, having been on dozens of cow calls in my life. I have even been zapped a few times with them.
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Old January 16, 2012, 01:26 PM   #31
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IMHO a large number of vicious dogs are actually afraid of people and attack in self defense regardless of what you may be doing. They feel threatened. If you react in a non threatening way with a calm firm voice most attacks can be avoided. There is also the occasional dog that has been beaten or abused and wants to bite anyone.
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Old January 16, 2012, 10:46 PM   #32
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... warning growl from my Lhotse, has stopped all dogs of all sizes in their tracks.
hmmmm Lhotse is a mountain. Can you show a picture of your dog ?
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Old January 16, 2012, 11:00 PM   #33
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sneaky little @$%^ nipped me in the heel

I was walking along when a sneaky little appetizer snuck up and nipped me. Then backed off and sat there, with what I strongly believe was a mocking, sneering expression. I ran at it, sort of a bluff charge to chase it back to its yard (where its owners were watching). Dog called my bluff, in mid-stride I changed from bluff charge to real intent, visualizing it going through the uprights. When I got a few strides away it's eyes gogged and it sprinted home.

"You should control your dog."

"That's not our dog."

I just stared a moment. It looked to you for shelter, didn't it? Didn't pursue it. It was gratifying to see canine smug turn to abject terror.

I know, I know, 'cool story, bro'
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Old January 16, 2012, 11:01 PM   #34
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She would spray a rag from her belt with it and throw in on any offending dog that wanted to bite, fight, or just cause trouble.

Yeah, I suspect even a dilute solution of ammonia will destroy the eyes ... I think it might hurt if it gets into the eyes.
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Old January 17, 2012, 03:10 AM   #35
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Lhotse is a 30 lb Tibetan Terrier--so named because the breed comes from the Himalaya; Lhotse being the third highest mountain in the world. I also have a female named Jannu. They are used by Buddhist monks as watchdogs in the Lamaseries and they will always know what's going on in and around the home. Incredible dogs with generally a benevolent loving temperament for the "home pack", but a bit of maintenance as the have extremely thick and long double coats to deal with some of the most extreme winter conditions on earth. Although the breed is fairly small to medium in size, they generally have a boxy head with very powerful jaws and long fangs and will give most dogs of any size a run for their money except the breeds that are purposefully trained as attack dogs. My attitude about that is owning an attack dog involves just as much responsibility--maybe more--as does owning firearms. Attack dogs are almost always a dead giveaway for drug dealers in the areas I live in.
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Old January 17, 2012, 03:48 AM   #36
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What about those handheld air horns? Something extra loud; use it for a non-lethal first line of defense...

http://www.discountmarinesupplies.co...Air_Horns.html
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Old January 17, 2012, 08:36 AM   #37
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Quote:
Stonewall50 said: I am curious if anyone knows how well an OC Gel works? The reason I say this is because it is also good for people. Gel is more of a contact type, and not really inhaled, but it is very easy to aim.
Gel won't work well on animals because you have to be exact in your aim, which is hard to do when they are charging you. Dogs need a full nostril shot to make them get the point and a fog works best. Watch this quick video of a pitbull stop on a dime with a fog spray ... hard to do this with a gel on a charging dog.

Pit Bull Sprayed with Bear Spray
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Old January 17, 2012, 10:35 AM   #38
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Thanks cat. That was what I was thinking. OC gel works great on people because of the skin burn and all of that. It is also easy to aim and blows back less.

I just bought some muzzle to test fire and I am probably going to get her a can as a present.
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Old January 17, 2012, 04:24 PM   #39
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Sorry for the long post, but I'd just say be careful making assumptions as to what is "enough" for defense against any animals that might be hostile or rabid, whether it be dog, bear, chupacabra or whatever else is out there. I've seen a rabid dog take 00 buckshot and keep coming strong, I think of it like the superman effect some drugs can give people.

I had a rabid dog charge me once and a point blank (literally within 5-10 feet) 12 gauge 00 shot didn't seem to even get the dogs' attention. If it weren't for the fact that it could barely walk after the shot, let alone charge me, I fully believe that dog would've had me. The dog ended up being put down by a .22 through the skull, but upon examination the shotgun blast had done considerable damage to the vital area, in addition to severe damage to two of it's legs.

Not trying to be morbid with the details, but it amazed me how much that dog was able to take without going down. After the shot I took, it continued towards another person (the one with the .22) and absorbed a number of hollowpoint rounds all to the head and neck region before one finally hit the right spot and dropped it.

If I was specifically looking for a non-firearm defense to use against dogs and such, I wouldn't settle for less than the bear pepper spray. FWIW we weren't out hunting dogs or anything, that particular dog had broken in to our chicken pen and had killed over 12 of them. When we went to investigate the noises, the dog charged from inside the pen. Examining the pen after the fact it looked like the dog had chewed through the wire fencing to get in.

When we contacted animal control they told us that they had been looking for that dog for several weeks because of similar incidents and that the dog had already been shot before. Dogs in general are awesome and I love them, but rabid dogs are a completely different animal.
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Old January 17, 2012, 07:03 PM   #40
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You should know that "Muzzle" and "Halt" and the like are much weaker than OC sprays designed for use against humans. I personally prefer the stream sprays over the fogs just for reason of wind. You can always spray an area with it, and the range is better to deter a dog that stops just short on a charge.

Right now I use MSI 10% spray in a flip top canister. I keep it in my EMS gear ar work just for dogs.
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Old January 17, 2012, 11:20 PM   #41
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Jogger loses foot to pit bulls

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/01/...-regular-dogs/

I'm a little bit dissapointed that the man's reaction is basically "we need more laws" Instead of "If I were allowed to carry I'd still have my foot".

But oh well.. some people don't get it...

What finally stopped these dogs though were bullets...
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Old January 18, 2012, 02:41 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeedWacker
A pocket knife could be a last ditch final line of defense but you would need a rather large knife and I'm not sure how laws in your area will affect that.
Three inches usually works for people, why not dogs?

I prefer a contact weapon against dogs, in my own experiences they don't give you the option to aim before they are in biting range. A simple pocket knife and some practice with opening it should be enough to stop an attack. I prefer cutting but stabbing is usually a more... lethal approach. Of course a young girl may not want to do this, may freeze up out of fear, or may not be able to put it into use. Though, that could be said of many items...
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Old January 18, 2012, 03:37 AM   #43
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Quote:
CountZero: What finally stopped these dogs though were bullets...
My brother had to stop a Pit Bull with a 45 and it still almost got him. I am diabetic myself, and a dog bite even by a small dog can result in months of wound care at a wound care clinic, and being a veteran that will be expensive for taxpayers, unless the dog owner has deep pockets and pays for all that care at a local wound care clinic. Although there is a state leash law in Texas a lot of small communities don't have a municipal one. I would hate to shoot any dog, but I will stop one that gets close enough to bite me.
I don't believe a walking stick will stop some vicious pitt bulls. I used to carry pepper spray on my keychain, till the VA restricted it. So now if I get dog bit
it will be the VA's problem or the dog owner if I have to be treated for months at a local wound care center. I no longer carry it at all, since its
difficult to take it on and off all the time. Fortunately when I have to be
admitted for wound care, the State provides respite care sending someone out 24/7 for my disabled daughter.
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Old January 18, 2012, 11:34 AM   #44
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Just a reminder to check local laws on OC. Here in Texas, it's supposed to be a can under a certain size (although I think it's a little vague if I recall). Bear spray is not allowed here.

I like the horn idea too. I wonder if the cattle prods make noise like some taser guns do. I don't know about a dog but if I was walking up to someone who had something in his hand that made that electrical "I'm about to light you up" noise I'd probably stop.

And I'd tend to recommend a layering approach. The stick sounds nice because you already have it out & in your hand. The dog can see it & think twice at the start. If he continues, then it buys you some extra time before the spray. With spray only, he's got to get within X (15?) feet of you before he knows you're going to fight back (ignoring body language of course).
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Old January 20, 2012, 09:53 AM   #45
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Sorry to hear about your friend. Dog bites happen "for a reason" but some dogs have been raised poorly so their reasoning is a tad bit off.

Brainstorming:
Here's something you could make a fun actuvity of: about OC gel-do you want to test it 1 more time, noting the spread at different ranges? You could set an upright target and do a quick burst, step back, repeat, note the distance and group size. Better yet, purchase a feasible carry package of both OC and you could run the same procedure with the friend (most importantly) pulling the trigger and you could assist with the setup and documentation. that might help get her mentally back on her feet. Documentation doesn't need to be precise (inches) but I do think the distance in feet and rough references would help (plate sized? Torso sized?). Mostly for the reason that I myself have a hard time sometimes judging distance given a number and your friend might too. Perhaps the targets could be down low, maybe add a human height target in there too while you're at it.

The two kinds might behave VERY differently but maybe not. Nothing beats testing it out for yourself. What I have heard (jaust hear say) is that usually the debate against OC gel is that some humans/inmates will wipe it off and throw it back at you. If a dog can do that, we need to rethink the plan regarding getting a nostril full as a requirement: I don't have any experience with gel so if you still have that bottle maybe you could see if anything fumes out or strictly stays in the goo.

I once bought a friend a small can of mace. And though it would be fun getting an old timey Flanged Mace as an expensive gag gift. Best wishes.
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Old January 20, 2012, 10:04 AM   #46
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- inspiration for that exercise was from watching a Gabe Suarez video testing shotgun spread pattern. If you do it, I forgot to mention that drawing an outline around each group size labeled w/ the distance might make things easier. You end up with concentric circles on the target. Not sure that would work with spray unless it is colored. Nice part is that it would be easy to set up- no need for a range. Just make sure no kids down wind and wash your hands asap. And no shaking hands with strangers before you do unless you're trying to add some excitement to their life.

No pun intended in first paragraph of my previous post. Too soon.

Perhaps a nice get well present would be a bag full of things that clinked like metal bottles inside. Maybe friends and family could pitch in.

God bless.

Last edited by dyl; January 20, 2012 at 10:05 AM. Reason: Spelling, in hurry
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Old January 20, 2012, 11:30 AM   #47
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Jogging with a slower friend might help.
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Old January 20, 2012, 11:35 AM   #48
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wasp and hornet spray, works great out to 20' and a lot cheaper than pepper spray, and legal any were.
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Old January 20, 2012, 12:01 PM   #49
Mike1234
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I carry...

1. A sturdy walking stick... will soon replace it with a thin steel baseball practice bat.

2. A can of 4oz 18% pepper spray carried in a belt pouch.

3. A 9mm pistol.
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Old January 20, 2012, 12:18 PM   #50
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I carry an Asp baton insted of mace for non lethal force...a short story about mace....years ago the neighbors dog wondered onto our property and was met by my shepards...long story short, they got into it, i interviened, wife came out with her mace.....end result, me on the ground from backspray, dogs still going at it....brother saved the day with a shovel (no loss of life)...
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