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Old January 17, 2012, 10:17 AM   #76
BarkSlayer
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Not to make light of anything here, but I'm confused. You live in Illinois...and there are threats to personal safety? I would have thought Senator Obama left that place in better shape.
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Old January 17, 2012, 10:26 AM   #77
Cycrops
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Hi All, OP here.

Thanks for all of the carefully thought-out replies and all of the advice!

I picked up my Beretta 92A1 last night, I'll be taking it to the range for the first time this evening. Very excited to try it out!

My wife immediately told me that she wants to learn how to shoot it ASAP, and was only slightly nervous about having it in the nightstand last night. She's already memorized the 4 basic rules of safety and exercised muzzle awareness and trigger discipline when I had her handle it last night.

I'm keeping it loaded, round in the chamber, de-cocked, safety off so all she needs to do is point and pull the trigger. I'm hoping her hands aren't too small to handle the double-action pull, it would be a shame if I had to buy another gun so soon

I bought snap caps for training and practice, I intend to get her comfortable handling the weapon right away and I'll figure out a way to get her to the range with me as well.

I'll also be considering professional training (I could use it myself as I'm not a highly experience shooter).

Securing the house is a good idea but I've got 4 entry doors and lots of windows on main floor and basement. An alarm system would cost me a fortune. We do have several small dogs who should serve to alert her to somebody trying to get in.
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Old January 17, 2012, 10:35 AM   #78
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Most folks are best served having a gun that is not trigger pull ready. Life comes at you fast as the commercial says. I once nearly shot my ceiling because of a bad dream. Personally I have no problems with a loaded gun but I do not have any gun condition one unless it is in my direct control. Maybe a quick access safe, or at least condition III. It won't be long before those cute kids touch things they shouldn't, prepare your habits now.

Just a quick read of this thread gave me annoyed vibes. You sound about as inexperienced as your wife, so why not make getting trained a job of equals? She's not some pretty little lady who needs your protection, she is a mother and human with just as much on the line as you. For all we know she is on prettypinkguns.com right now posting about how to best protect her fragile husband.

Probably just a byproduct of too many what guns for the little lady threads, but seriously, let her make her decisions and approach it together, don't propose to be the authority when you aren't. Get thee to a trainer, one that treats women like adults. And have fun at the range together, a pleasure long denied me, none of my female acquaintances liked guns thus far.
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Old January 17, 2012, 10:37 AM   #79
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^this^

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Old January 17, 2012, 11:17 AM   #80
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i have to admit that i haven't read through all 4 pages of this thread and have no idea where it has progressed. (maybe i should) but, as stupid as this may sound, a lot of airsoft pistols look and feel REMARKABLY close to the real thing.

before you jump to conclusions, let me explain.

a $15 airsoft pistol that looks and feels and operates much the same way as a real pistol CAN BE AN AMAZING TRAINING TOOL. it can help you practice drawing, aiming, stance, shooting etc, in your house or apartment. Granted you can also do this with your unloaded and secured pistol, and SHOULD, but, when it comes to practicing getting quick shots off, an airsoft pistol is ideal.

anyway, that's my thought about it. i practice with both personally. would be good for your wife to do the same. or anyone else for that matter so you aren't endangering anyone or yourself
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Old January 17, 2012, 11:26 AM   #81
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[For all we know she is on prettypinkguns.com right now posting about how to best protect her fragile husband.]

Not only not helpful, it is insulting. That is not necessary.
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Old January 17, 2012, 11:55 AM   #82
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Quote:
Most folks are best served having a gun that is not trigger pull ready.
True, gotta learn how to rack the slide properly, something many people screw up. When I can't seem to get it across to a student I'll have them rack the gun like many do, with it out in front of them, then I'll step in and take it from them.


Quote:
You sound about as inexperienced as your wife, so why not make getting trained a job of equals?
NOT! in the same class. When management schedules two officers who are married to the same class, something I wish they would stop, I always put them on the opposite ends of the line.
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Old January 17, 2012, 12:09 PM   #83
Onward Allusion
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Quote:
Cycrops
Hi All, OP here.

Thanks for all of the carefully thought-out replies and all of the advice!

I picked up my Beretta 92A1 last night, I'll be taking it to the range for the first time this evening. Very excited to try it out!

My wife immediately told me that she wants to learn how to shoot it ASAP, and was only slightly nervous about having it in the nightstand last night. She's already memorized the 4 basic rules of safety and exercised muzzle awareness and trigger discipline when I had her handle it last night.

I'm keeping it loaded, round in the chamber, de-cocked, safety off so all she needs to do is point and pull the trigger. I'm hoping her hands aren't too small to handle the double-action pull, it would be a shame if I had to buy another gun so soon

I bought snap caps for training and practice, I intend to get her comfortable handling the weapon right away and I'll figure out a way to get her to the range with me as well.

I'll also be considering professional training (I could use it myself as I'm not a highly experience shooter).

Securing the house is a good idea but I've got 4 entry doors and lots of windows on main floor and basement. An alarm system would cost me a fortune. We do have several small dogs who should serve to alert her to somebody trying to get in.
A full-size semi-auto chambered in 9mm is not a good thing for anyone without some training and absolutely crazy for someone who has never fired it. Snap-caps are one thing, but when the thing is hot and goes bang that's an entirely different situation. Seriously, I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm nervous for you and your family. Please get some professional training.

As for an alarm system costing a fortune, have you actually looked into it??? You said that you have 4 doors and a bunch of windows. Did you know that for $99 you can get an ADT system with 2 door sensors and 1 motion detector? I'm also pretty sure that you can swap the motion detector for a door contact, so that leaves one additional door to cover and I believe it's less than $100 for that to be installed. Most break-ins occur through a door. Even if a burglar (not home invader) gets in via a window, they will in almost all cases leave through a door.

For what you'd paid for a 92A1 (guessing in the neighborhood of $600 to $700 retail in IL), I would have gotten a revolver in 38 Special or 327 Mag AND the security system.
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Old January 17, 2012, 12:18 PM   #84
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Jerry:

If that was the sum total of NavyJoe's post, I'd agree with you ... but the way I read it, it was simply a tongue-in-cheek emphasis to a very valid point that was being made. It even had the little emoticon at the end. Just my opinion, but I do normally err on the over-respectful side, myself.

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Old January 17, 2012, 12:21 PM   #85
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To the issue of leaving a firearm around with one in the chamber, just remember that in a house fire, that round will "cook off" and it will leave the barrel with at LEAST as much energy as it would if it were fired normally. This is just one more reason to have the standard storage mode be "chamber empty" ... just to be clear, this would not be my preference for a weapon that is under your direct control, just when it is in semi-ready storage.

I also second the suggestion of a rapid access safe ... the GunVault safes seem pretty good (and all the complaints I've read seem to be defects pretty early in the unit's life). Mine has been rock solid for many years and it is FAST to access. You will need something like this in the not too distant future anyway, and these are good safety insurance in the case of an unexpected visit from your cousin with his wild, unruly, and curious 10 year old triplets

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Old January 17, 2012, 12:27 PM   #86
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The guy that knocked on the door was scoping out your place to come back, he wanted to see more or less how many people and living conditions-if nice stuff then worth it...thats how these bozos think, if it looks dirty and trashy then they dont bother.
IF she dosent practice with the beretta its useless especially being that it has a safety she has to remember to dissangage and under stress it happens to experienced shooters so its a must that she practices loading and firing at the range till its second nature and you see her dumping ammo into the target like nothing i would suggest a good revolver for her, its basic and just plain works, would much rather have a xdm 45 for various reasons including its reliable and as simple to use as a glock, or a glock, simply rack-point-shoot, dosent get easier but trigger control is a must for safety reasons, if your going to have one loaded i would at least keep it in a holster somewhere high away from the kids but easy for you to get too!!! in case you need it and hell always answer the gun with your gun, when i dont know who it is my barrel is on the door as i open with my other hand...theres been instances were people would just bulge in and take you by suprise,be careful!
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Old January 17, 2012, 12:29 PM   #87
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Forgot to mention a DOG! a good medium sized dog would be great, barking is always a way to deterr bad guys they rather not bother with that house and move on to the next...
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Old January 17, 2012, 12:46 PM   #88
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Ok, Buzzcook, what is your estimate?

Since the OP says,
Quote:
Securing the house is a good idea but I've got 4 entry doors and lots of windows on main floor and basement. An alarm system would cost me a fortune.
What is your estimate for adequately securing such a house?

Do you think most people would be able to afford that?

Or do you think a gun and some training might be more realistically affordable?

Note: I do think that in the long run, making the house more secure is a good investment. I just don't think most people could afford to do it with cash available (or without abusing a credit limit), and even the ones who could afford it would still have to wait for the work to be done, which is often not all that fast, depending on contractor availability. Of course, if money is no object, anything can be done...
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Old January 17, 2012, 12:48 PM   #89
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JGC, the OP says he has several small, warning bark type dogs. A larger, bite-deterrent type dog might or might not be a good addition, with the pre-existing dogs and two newborns, and would also depend on whether the OP and his wife like larger dogs.

I think dogs are great; I have a bull/pointer mix and a bull/shepherd mix, along with a Jack Russell. People generally don't bang on the door more than once at our place. However, my wife and I love dogs, and grew up around them.

People who don't like dogs, but get a dog, are not doing themselves or the dog a favor, as another poster already pointed out. (Edit: That would have been Pond, James Pond in post #52.)
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Old January 17, 2012, 01:18 PM   #90
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A no soliciting sign will actually cut down on random door knocks by a lot. My neighborhood was getting door to door people almost every day, about 8 months ago I stuck a no soliciting sign on the door and they stopped like that. I still see them knocking on other houses but not here. Best $3.50 I ever spent.
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Old January 17, 2012, 01:45 PM   #91
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I've got a no trespassing sign right on my sidewalk leading up to my front door--hasn't seemed to slow down the solicitations, holy-rollers and flim-flammers much--but at least it establishes a legal precedent if something bad should happen to them on my property.
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Old January 17, 2012, 01:47 PM   #92
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My dogs ARE my family--messing with them is messing with my kids! : )
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Old January 17, 2012, 01:48 PM   #93
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I have not investigated the actual cost of an alarm system. I forgot about the door to the garage (and the garage man-door), which brings my total number of doors to secure up to 6. There are something like 15 windows an intruder could potentially use to gain access. It is certainly worth investigating and weighing the cost/benefit of an alarm system, along with several other of the suggestions that have been made.

I do intend to invest in a quick-access safe sometime soon. I have infants right now so I have some time to research before I purchase.

I'd rather not do too much debating about whether to have a round chambered, safety on, etc. It seems like everyone has their own opinion and there seem to be plenty of threads about it. The 92 series seems to be built such that you can carry it cocked/locked with safety on, which emulates 1911 style, or as I have mine, with a round chambered, safety off, decocked, which resembles a loaded DA revolver. Obviously you can configure it plenty of other ways that require additional steps before a trigger pull yields a fired round. I'm not saying my way is the right way.

I once read a book about Eisenhower's planning of the Normandy invasions that made a big impression on me. It seemed to me that his philosophy was that you need a good plan, but you also need to understand that things rarely go according to plan. The people responsible for executing it need to understand the underlying goals of the plan so that when things go awry, they are capable of reacting in an appropriate manner. I try to apply that style to my personal and professional life.

What I've realized from this thread is that my underlying goals may have been half-formed, so let's start there:

Original Goals:
- Work with my wife to avoid her giving easy entry to an intruder via the front door.
- Buy a gun that I can have a ton of fun shooting at the range! (mission accomplished, I can't wait to take it shooting tonight!)
- Have a nightstand gun that I can use to defend the family should a break-in happen at night.
- Have a gun that my wife can handle to thwart [edit: by "thwart" I mean "kill." I appreciate the advice that she needs to decide how confident she is that she could be the mother lion and take a life if the family is threatened] an intruder while she's home alone.

New Goals:
- Evaluate my general level of home security. Without going overboard, are there smart ways to make the house safer for my family?
- Firearms training. Determine how far to take this (formal training courses vs. range time, reading materials, in-home dry-fire exercises, etc.) for myself and my wife. Also need to decide with the wife whether the handgun should be accessible to her as a line of defense before she's had a chance to do live-fire training with it (seems like the prevailing opinion here is 'no').
- Plan for home defense. Develop some different scenarios for intruder situations and determine plans that will give us a better chance of survival than hoping the bad guys decide not to harm us.
- Shoot the hell out of my new gun! I doubt many of us would be here if firearms weren't a fantastic hobby. There's a very small chance I will experience violence in my home, but 100% chance that I'll be enjoying my guns, enjoying teaching my wife to shoot, shopping for her first gun, teaching the kids to shoot someday, etc.

Thanks again for all of the replies everybody!

Last edited by Cycrops; January 17, 2012 at 01:52 PM. Reason: Clarification.
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Old January 17, 2012, 01:52 PM   #94
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May want to rethink the attitude on round in chamber--I've heard parents were legally liable if the weapon is even momentarily left unattended and a child somehow gets a hold of it and someone gets hurt or dead as a result.
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Old January 17, 2012, 01:57 PM   #95
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Can somebody teach me how to quote a previous post? Other forums I've been to have a handy button.

Regarding "one in the chamber" and access by children in general. By the time my children are old enough to be mobile in any way (they are currently stationary, cooing, cuter-than-anything-you-have-ever-seen infants), my firearms will be secured to prevent their access.

Any time guests (especially those with children) are in the house before that time, the guns will be secured during visits.
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Old January 17, 2012, 02:31 PM   #96
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one thing i may have overlooked

When the both of y'all go out to buy guns make sure that when it comes to her, you let her choose what gun she likes and fits her well. ( assuming its not a .25 )

Learned that lesson the hard way when my old lady wanted a gun. Got what I wanted her to get....not what she wanted to get or what fit her best.

I then gave her a list of calibers to choose from...and of course a budget of 1k .

Expensive maybe, but I don't skimp on guns.
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Old January 17, 2012, 02:44 PM   #97
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If you can't afford an alarm system, see if you can legally aquire an ADT yard sign from somewhere. That and making the house look lit and lived in can deter a lot. And as said, dog, dog ,dog.
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Old January 17, 2012, 03:10 PM   #98
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Lots of good advice. Some not so good IMO knifes ect. What incidents have happened in your area that its not safe to go to the door. Is it a particularly dangerous area. A lot af advice given would be illegal here. Pepper spray cs spray tazer ect. are all illegal firearms for personal protection is not seen as a good reason to own a firearm with some exceptions.
This has being a very dangerous place in the past with thousands of terrorist murders. But most would have no problem answering the door. My point not to overreact if some are worried just take sensible precautions.
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Old January 17, 2012, 08:32 PM   #99
hangglider
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Chattanooga is a never-ending source of information on shootings, here's a case in point: http://timesfreepress.com/news/2012/.../?breakingnews
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Old January 17, 2012, 08:50 PM   #100
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A few thoughts, Cycrops:

1a) If you've gone over safety with your wife, then the odds are she would not harm herself or the kids with the 92. I can see nothing gained by denying her access until she gets some live fire training. In the event something did go bump in the day, while you were out, you would prefer her not to have the option of using the weapon? Does that really make any kind of sense to you?

1b) Is it really even your decision to make? Is this your wife or your child?

You may not realize it, but some of those arguments you are making come across as chauvinist/condescending. That may not be your intention, but I can't imagine telling my wife "I will not let you touch the ______ gun until you train to my standards."

1c) If you are really concerned for her safety, and you really think she should not handle a gun until she gets live fire training, then you babysit the kids tomorrow and let her go meet an instructor at the range. You seem to feel you know enough about the gun to be safe, and you're the man... so let the woman get herself equalized a bit.

1d) Some guys who try to teach women to shoot.... Let's just say I had to intercede quickly the other day at the range, because one guy didn't notice his trainee was crossing her support hand thumb behind the slide of the 1911 he was going to teach her with... And he couldn't hit a B-27 at 10 yards, using a laser... It took me about three minutes with her, and (although granted it was at the 5 yd line) she had put five rounds in the X ring, and one just under the X in the 10 ring, using 158gr SWC .38 Special out of my 3" S&W 65. She went from being scared of guns, to debating between a S&W 60 or an SP101.

(Edit: She and her husband were out of time, so she had to quit after six rounds fired. Most of the time I spent with her involved getting her to adjust her grip, switch to a Chapman so bone structure would make up for poor arm strength, get her feet to shoulder width, bend her knees, shift body weight forward to absorb recoil, and focus on the front sight. Oh, yeah, I also showed her how I set up my initial aim with my feet and body, kind of like one sets up a shot in tennis or racquetball, so all the arms and hands have to do is fine tune. Really took about three minutes...)

A lot of guys think they can shoot, and a lot of guys think they can teach... and many of them are wrong, on both counts.

2) The 92 can not be carried cocked and locked, a la the 1911. It can be carried with a round chambered and the hammer down, safety on; round chambered and hammer down, safety off; round not chambered, hammer down, safety on or off. In theory, you could carry it round chambered and hammer cocked, but you could not engage the safety, as engagement of the safety also de-cocks the 92.

You may be thinking of the HK USP line, or the CZ75. (Although the CZ's that can be carried cocked and locked don't have de-cockers, and one has to lower the hammer with one's thumb under the hammer, until it reaches half-cock, to carry chambered in DA mode.)

3) A true "safe" will cost in the thousands of dollars. However, you can get a steel lock-box, with key or three-digit combo lock, and a cable for securing to heavy furniture, for around $30. If you want one of those, it's pretty easy to set aside the money to get one. You can get them at the LGS or sporting goods store, but you can also get them on amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/GunVault-NV300...d_sim_sbs_sg_1

http://www.amazon.com/GunVault-NV200...d_sim_sbs_sg_2
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