This is unbelievable,,,

aarondhgraham · January 20, 2012, 11:33 AM

A "Travel Advisory" for New Yorkers,,,

Click here please,,,

I don't want this to be a drive-by posting,,,
So I'll ask for comments on the ramifications of this.

Let's say that Tennessee started ticketing every New York license plate,,,
Couldn't the New Yorkers file suit for selective application of the law?

I think it's great that Tennessee is trying to stand up for this citizen,,,
I'm just not sure that this move wouldn't be blatantly illegal.

Aarond

Uncle Buck · January 20, 2012, 11:45 AM

Interesting that this has made the general assembly. Maybe Tennessee is on to something here.

If enough New Yorkers get stopped and ticketted and it starts hitting them in the pocket, something will happen.

I am sure if this "Cautionary Advice" is not followed by New York Drivers, eventually attorneys are going to get involved. Coudl the attorney generals from each state end up in federal court?

I do agree this is a victimless crime, just like the other guy who was carrying gold and asked where to check his gun.

I hope this thread does not get closed, because it shows the need for reciprocity between the states. You have a license to drive, get married, etc.. and those are honored by other states.

C0untZer0 · January 20, 2012, 11:56 AM

We might have to disband the union if them Yankees don't straighten up n' fly right...

Aguila Blanca · January 20, 2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aarondgraham

Let's say that Tennessee started ticketing every New York license plate,,,
Couldn't the New Yorkers file suit for selective application of the law?

But they didn't say they were going to ticket every New York license plate. They advised New Yorkers to obey the speed limit. IMHO the only way for a New Yorker to show selective enforcement would be to sit next to a radar unit and count how many home-state speeders were NOT stopped compared to how many NY speeders WERE stopped.

**Brian Pfleuger** · January 20, 2012, 12:09 PM

As much as I disagree with New York City's treatment of gun owners,

what appalls me most is politicians acting like kindergartners.

"Oh Yeah! If you don't stop picking on me I'm going to punch your sister!"

Beyond that, it's not the people of New York or NYC that are causing this problem and it's not a new problem. NYC has had these asinine laws since the 1930s. It's not the general population causing problems any more than the people of Tennessee are responsible if these idiots decide to selectively enforce the speed limit.

And I don't see how we have to "prove" selective enforcement. They didn't warn "everybody" or even all "out of state residents" to be careful. They warned "New Yorkers", they ADMIT to selective enforcement.

**Tom Servo** · January 20, 2012, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Beyond that, it's not the people of New York or NYC that are causing this problem and it's not a new problem.

Definitely. Your average New Yorker isn't the instigator. Heck, he probably doesn't even realize that his state has unfair laws regarding guns.

This punishes the wrong people, if it does anything at all.

maestro pistolero · January 20, 2012, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Beyond that, it's not the people of New York or NYC that are causing this problem and it's not a new problem.

NO, but they repeatedly elect the people who perpetuate the problems.

kaylorinhi · January 20, 2012, 12:32 PM

First, every citizen who has not willfully given it away(felony) has the right to vote! There for it is the individual New Yorkers fault, they could force law changes.

Second, I like the kindergarten analogy!!!

Don V. · January 20, 2012, 12:53 PM

Like it or not, the vast majority of NYC'ers agree with their opressive gun laws. That's democracy in action.

Again, like it or not, she broke the law. The response from Tennesee does seem childish, but is this really the issue? I remember when I first heard that, "Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law." I've always had doubts about the efficacy of this harsh philosophy. It sure suggest that the purpose of the law is to punish rather then produce desired results. Knowledge is usually enough to get law abiding people to follow the law. I once got a ticket in SC for throwing a cigarette butt out a car window. I didn't know it was against the law and if I had known, I wouldn't have done it. Instead it cost me $500 and it could have been $1000. It wasn't about preventing littering, it was about money. But, I was guilty.

Is "ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law," the way we should operate as a society? Specially when the act is entirely innocent and there is no harm or victim?

**hogdogs** · January 20, 2012, 01:16 PM

Quote:

We might have to disband the union if them Yankees don't straighten up n' fly right...

Some of us been sayin' this for about a hundred and fifty years...

Brent

aarondhgraham · January 20, 2012, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Is "ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law," the way we should operate as a society? Specially when the act is entirely innocent and there is no harm or victim?

I have always thought that the "ignorance of the law" thing was merely a cop-out for judges who want to punish, or want to levy fines, or are simply too lazy to implement the law as it was intended.

There is always the concept of enforcing the Letter of the Law versus the Spirit (intent) of the Law.

Our courts have slipped way towards enforcing the letter,,,
I firmly believe it's because it's simply easier,,,
No messy case law appeals here,,,
Hang the Perpetrator!,,,
Next case.

I do realize I tend to take a pessimistic view our of legal system,,,
But what I see is all about making money through fines,,,
Or enforcing bad laws that generate felons.

Aarond

sigcurious · January 20, 2012, 01:48 PM

Erm where did I put the link... ahh here it is TN Requests Reason from NYC

Fortunately for the lady, they've also taken a bit more measured approach to trying to help her cause.

I said before in a thread about her case, that she should have checked the local laws before for travelling, and I stand by that. But Similarly, when law enforcement deals with someone who is not a threat and voluntarily attempts to abide by the laws and regulations they have knowledge of, that should be taken into consideration.

maestro pistolero · January 20, 2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Like it or not, the vast majority of NYC'ers agree with their opressive gun laws. That's democracy in action.

Yep. Who was it that said something like: Democracy is nothing more than a 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch?

Fortunately, we are a democratic republic, and there are remedies for such votes.

oneounceload · January 20, 2012, 02:10 PM

Quote:

You have a license to drive, get married, etc.. and those are honored by other states.

Age to drive in NY state is 16, age to drive in NYC is 17. 16 year olds are not legally able to drive in NYC.

Some states have legalized gay marriages, some have not - point is, there are a lot of similar things where there is not reciprocity.

Simple - if NY and NYC have gun laws you absolutely can't live with, start a campaign about how you will take your tourist dollars to other locales - it will help if you can get a few million of friends to also do the same. However, since NYC is about to violate your 4th rights by scanning folks without their consent on the streets looking for guns, your odds of changing their laws are slim to none.

Fishing_Cabin · January 20, 2012, 05:50 PM

While this is unique in that what the state of TN is proposing is selective traffic enforcement, because of NY firearm laws, I'm not sure I would want to be a test case on either side. Selective enforcement has been used in some areas for a while. I used to drive a truck and made a delivery a few miles off the interestate through one tiny town, and just into the next. Coming out, I got stopped and ticketed for an overwidth violation. Around $350 if I remember right. Seems there was a fued between the two towns and the one closest to the interstate lost a bid for the industrial park, which was built in the neighboring town, so it refused to change or ammend a width restriction. Kind of created an impromtu "toll" in a way. The only other way to the town from the interstate to the south had a low bridge, and hence a 13'6 trailer wouldnt pass. Thats just an example of how petty some of these things can get. The local trucks were exepmt though...Some places I choose not to visit and take my money elsewhere.

As to this fued between NYC and TN. I dont see NYC changing its laws any... The best they could do if they want to make a point of this is to enact laws saying that for reciprocity, any person who resides in one location, when in the state of TN is given the same level of treatment and reciprocity that an out of state person gets in his/her home location. Example being, if one of the very few people in NYC with a carry permit traveled to the state of TN, they would be unable to carry, since a TN permit holder is not legal to carry in TN. Do the same with ownership and possession. I dont agree with this, but it would be more doable then trying to selectively enforce traffic laws on only new yorkers.

Oh, and I dont travel to NY or NYC. They dont want my money and tourism/business evidently. All the best to them. Other places are more welcoming.

Patriot86 · January 20, 2012, 06:44 PM

I like the spirit but I just don't like the idea of it.

So lets say Our biggest pal in the CPD "McJersey" as he is called, decided to crack down on people who cross the border from Indiana conceal carrying, ignorant of the law.

Then Indiana puts forth a law like this in retaliation.

Now when I cross the border to go visit my Dad in Sherriville I get a ticket?

Would be better off with a civil war in this country than the scenario I just laid out.

nate45 · January 20, 2012, 06:54 PM

I can't believe they are siding with the woman. She had no right to violate NYC law and ignorance of the law is no excuse.

2damnold4this · January 20, 2012, 07:17 PM

Tennessee should not do something absurd just because NYC has.

Buzzcook · January 20, 2012, 08:05 PM

The lady broke the law. Her remedy is in the courts. If the state of Tennessee wants to help the lady they can file a brief in her case.

If I were a New Yorker I'd be real tempted to get arrested in Tennessee so as to challenge that law and hopefully sue their pants off.

Crazy88Fingers · January 20, 2012, 08:41 PM

None of this affects me in any way, and I find it amusing. Taking all that into consideration, I hope it continues and progresses.

Could Tennessee refuse to acknowledge New York driver's licenses?

csmsss · January 20, 2012, 08:50 PM

A few points. First, NYC has and will always comprise the supreme voting bloc in NY state politics. The NY gun laws are no exception to this.

Second, most NYC residents do not own cars. Not because they wouldn't like to, necessarily, but because they are far too expensive to park.

Ergo, when a TN popo initiates a grudge stop against a driver with NY tags, he/she is most likely pizzing off a driver who had absolutely nothing to do with NY's gun laws. In fact, I'd arguee they are inherently counterproductive and angering a New York voter who might otherwise be inclined to support gun rights.

Pbearperry · January 20, 2012, 08:55 PM

The problem with New York City is that they are still upset about the huge gorilla that climbed the Empire State Building and caused a ruckus.

oneounceload · January 20, 2012, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Second, most NYC residents do not own cars. Not because they wouldn't like to, necessarily, but because they are far too expensive to park.

Incorrect, in fact most DO own cars, take the area of NYC and put 8.5 million folks and almost as many cars in it, and the chaos is a normal fact of life.

On topic, the police are militarized, they are about to start violating the 4th amendment in their zeal to violate the 2nd...............and no one is standing up to stop them

MLeake · January 20, 2012, 10:05 PM

I don't know whether most NYC residents do or do not own cars. I do know that parking is a major challenge in many areas of the city (and boroughs), and that most of the NYC residents I personally know do not own cars. Several bought cars after moving to the suburbs, though.

2GunCorcoran · January 22, 2012, 04:29 PM

I don't know of any federal or state law against harassing New Yorkers for speeding.

By the way, the article said the TN woman is being charged with a felony. Yet another reason felons should be allowed to buy guns.

Quote:

I can't believe they are siding with the woman. She had no right to violate NYC law and ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I take it you think the law is always just. Do you agree with genocide? Acts of genocide are often totally legal at the times and places where they occur, and resistance to them is often illegal at the time and place where it would occur. How about American slavery? That had the full protection of federal and state law for nearly 100 years.

January 20, 2012, 11:33 AM	#1
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 6,358	This is unbelievable,,, A "Travel Advisory" for New Yorkers,,, Click here please,,, I don't want this to be a drive-by posting,,, So I'll ask for comments on the ramifications of this. Let's say that Tennessee started ticketing every New York license plate,,, Couldn't the New Yorkers file suit for selective application of the law? I think it's great that Tennessee is trying to stand up for this citizen,,, I'm just not sure that this move wouldn't be blatantly illegal. Aarond __________________ Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Combat: "A Silent Cry" Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

January 20, 2012, 11:45 AM	#2
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,434	Interesting that this has made the general assembly. Maybe Tennessee is on to something here. If enough New Yorkers get stopped and ticketted and it starts hitting them in the pocket, something will happen. I am sure if this "Cautionary Advice" is not followed by New York Drivers, eventually attorneys are going to get involved. Coudl the attorney generals from each state end up in federal court? I do agree this is a victimless crime, just like the other guy who was carrying gold and asked where to check his gun. I hope this thread does not get closed, because it shows the need for reciprocity between the states. You have a license to drive, get married, etc.. and those are honored by other states. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

January 20, 2012, 12:09 PM	#5
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,522	As much as I disagree with New York City's treatment of gun owners, what appalls me most is politicians acting like kindergartners. "Oh Yeah! If you don't stop picking on me I'm going to punch your sister!" Beyond that, it's not the people of New York or NYC that are causing this problem and it's not a new problem. NYC has had these asinine laws since the 1930s. It's not the general population causing problems any more than the people of Tennessee are responsible if these idiots decide to selectively enforce the speed limit. And I don't see how we have to "prove" selective enforcement. They didn't warn "everybody" or even all "out of state residents" to be careful. They warned "New Yorkers", they ADMIT to selective enforcement. __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. -C.S. Lewis He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

January 20, 2012, 12:32 PM	#8
kaylorinhi Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: The brown eye of america Posts: 460	Third party opinion First, every citizen who has not willfully given it away(felony) has the right to vote! There for it is the individual New Yorkers fault, they could force law changes. Second, I like the kindergarten analogy!!! __________________ Buy your guns by Yardline, Not Looks.

January 20, 2012, 06:54 PM	#17
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,732	I can't believe they are siding with the woman. She had no right to violate NYC law and ignorance of the law is no excuse. __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

January 20, 2012, 11:56 AM	#3
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	We might have to disband the union if them Yankees don't straighten up n' fly right...

January 20, 2012, 12:53 PM	#9
Don V. Member Join Date: January 14, 2012 Posts: 31	Like it or not, the vast majority of NYC'ers agree with their opressive gun laws. That's democracy in action. Again, like it or not, she broke the law. The response from Tennesee does seem childish, but is this really the issue? I remember when I first heard that, "Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law." I've always had doubts about the efficacy of this harsh philosophy. It sure suggest that the purpose of the law is to punish rather then produce desired results. Knowledge is usually enough to get law abiding people to follow the law. I once got a ticket in SC for throwing a cigarette butt out a car window. I didn't know it was against the law and if I had known, I wouldn't have done it. Instead it cost me $500 and it could have been $1000. It wasn't about preventing littering, it was about money. But, I was guilty. Is "ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law," the way we should operate as a society? Specially when the act is entirely innocent and there is no harm or victim?

January 20, 2012, 01:48 PM	#12
sigcurious Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2011 Posts: 1,640	Erm where did I put the link... ahh here it is TN Requests Reason from NYC Fortunately for the lady, they've also taken a bit more measured approach to trying to help her cause. I said before in a thread about her case, that she should have checked the local laws before for travelling, and I stand by that. But Similarly, when law enforcement deals with someone who is not a threat and voluntarily attempts to abide by the laws and regulations they have knowledge of, that should be taken into consideration.

January 20, 2012, 05:50 PM	#15
Fishing_Cabin Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2010 Posts: 581	While this is unique in that what the state of TN is proposing is selective traffic enforcement, because of NY firearm laws, I'm not sure I would want to be a test case on either side. Selective enforcement has been used in some areas for a while. I used to drive a truck and made a delivery a few miles off the interestate through one tiny town, and just into the next. Coming out, I got stopped and ticketed for an overwidth violation. Around $350 if I remember right. Seems there was a fued between the two towns and the one closest to the interstate lost a bid for the industrial park, which was built in the neighboring town, so it refused to change or ammend a width restriction. Kind of created an impromtu "toll" in a way. The only other way to the town from the interstate to the south had a low bridge, and hence a 13'6 trailer wouldnt pass. Thats just an example of how petty some of these things can get. The local trucks were exepmt though...Some places I choose not to visit and take my money elsewhere. As to this fued between NYC and TN. I dont see NYC changing its laws any... The best they could do if they want to make a point of this is to enact laws saying that for reciprocity, any person who resides in one location, when in the state of TN is given the same level of treatment and reciprocity that an out of state person gets in his/her home location. Example being, if one of the very few people in NYC with a carry permit traveled to the state of TN, they would be unable to carry, since a TN permit holder is not legal to carry in TN. Do the same with ownership and possession. I dont agree with this, but it would be more doable then trying to selectively enforce traffic laws on only new yorkers. Oh, and I dont travel to NY or NYC. They dont want my money and tourism/business evidently. All the best to them. Other places are more welcoming.

January 20, 2012, 06:44 PM	#16
Patriot86 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,148	I like the spirit but I just don't like the idea of it. So lets say Our biggest pal in the CPD "McJersey" as he is called, decided to crack down on people who cross the border from Indiana conceal carrying, ignorant of the law. Then Indiana puts forth a law like this in retaliation. Now when I cross the border to go visit my Dad in Sherriville I get a ticket? Would be better off with a civil war in this country than the scenario I just laid out.

January 20, 2012, 07:17 PM	#18
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 1,031	Tennessee should not do something absurd just because NYC has.

January 20, 2012, 08:05 PM	#19
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 5,207	The lady broke the law. Her remedy is in the courts. If the state of Tennessee wants to help the lady they can file a brief in her case. If I were a New Yorker I'd be real tempted to get arrested in Tennessee so as to challenge that law and hopefully sue their pants off.

January 20, 2012, 08:41 PM	#20
Crazy88Fingers Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 799	None of this affects me in any way, and I find it amusing. Taking all that into consideration, I hope it continues and progresses. Could Tennessee refuse to acknowledge New York driver's licenses? __________________ "And I'm tellin' you son, well it ain't no fun, staring straight down a .44" -Lynyrd Skynyrd

January 20, 2012, 08:50 PM	#21
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 2,367	A few points. First, NYC has and will always comprise the supreme voting bloc in NY state politics. The NY gun laws are no exception to this. Second, most NYC residents do not own cars. Not because they wouldn't like to, necessarily, but because they are far too expensive to park. Ergo, when a TN popo initiates a grudge stop against a driver with NY tags, he/she is most likely pizzing off a driver who had absolutely nothing to do with NY's gun laws. In fact, I'd arguee they are inherently counterproductive and angering a New York voter who might otherwise be inclined to support gun rights.

January 20, 2012, 08:55 PM	#22
Pbearperry Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 283	The problem with New York City is that they are still upset about the huge gorilla that climbed the Empire State Building and caused a ruckus.

January 20, 2012, 10:05 PM	#24
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 9,672	I don't know whether most NYC residents do or do not own cars. I do know that parking is a major challenge in many areas of the city (and boroughs), and that most of the NYC residents I personally know do not own cars. Several bought cars after moving to the suburbs, though.