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Old January 12, 2012, 04:18 PM   #76
C0untZer0
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I have the ability to go to training camps, participate in competitions and practice every day if I want to.

Most criminals don't have complete unfettered access to those training resources. I think they do train but they do so at the risk of being caught by the police - either trespassing on someone's land or shooting in an abandoned building.

I wouldn't say they are bad shots, but I think it's fair to say that they don't have the opportunity to train like a law abiding citizen can ( I'm not counting NYC or Chicago).

Here is my other point. The anti-gun crowd is always talking about stricter gun laws - but they NEVER talk about stricter sentencing for repeat offenders and felons using firearms. And I don't remember the NRA really pushing it either.

I think if a felon wants to practice with a firearm they're not supposed to have in the first place - then they should do it at the risk of going to prison for 20 years if they're caught.

There are always going to be criminals who aren't deterred period - no matter what. I don't know what school of criminology came up with the classification of the incorrigible criminal - I've seen it in Gary Kleck's writings. I’m not arguing that more gun laws are going to deter criminals who are already breaking laws – including gun laws. But maybe felons who are determined to arm themselves should just be incarcerated period. It seems that Florida implemented similar laws and they seem to have improved things.
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Old January 12, 2012, 04:28 PM   #77
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I have the ability to go to training camps, participate in competitions and practice every day if I want to.
Those who don't have no advantage at all over those who can't.

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Old January 12, 2012, 05:18 PM   #78
Colvin
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Pardon me if this has been said, but--

Violent criminals who use firearms routinely in COMBAT SITUATIONS will likely be better shots under stress. I have no extensive training, never served, never been in a gunfight- and while I remain a pretty good shot, I know the there's no way in hell I'd be able to outfight anyone with training or experience. Especially the latter.

As I said, I am no expert- far from it. But it would seem like, to me, that the more experienced you are the more calm and levelheaded you are during gunfights. I wonder how much experience you need to use the full extent of the accuracy you produce when not in combat.
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Old January 12, 2012, 06:05 PM   #79
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All sorts of speculations about what criminals can do. Thing is that it's just guessing based on stereotyping.
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Old January 14, 2012, 03:37 AM   #80
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Another shooting with assault rifle: http://timesfreepress.com/news/2012/.../?breakingnews
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Old January 14, 2012, 03:45 AM   #81
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The best you can do is practice and train and practice and train like the threat might be better than you.
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Old January 14, 2012, 08:09 PM   #82
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I recall a video out of Toledo...

showing a bar battle and with all the pieces firing and bullets flying, NO ONE got hit, inside that bar.

But when you spray you might get lucky.
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Old January 14, 2012, 09:49 PM   #83
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The BGs here have assault rifles and use them. They probably know a good penetrating round is going to go through the car or window/wall and still get their target if they just fire enough rounds. Thank God, so far they seem to mostly hit one another, but it remains to be seen if they are starting random hits "just for the heck of it." Two people have been shot/shot at with assault rifles in just the last few days. If you get targeted by gangs for a drive by here--it's very bad news as they like to pull up and open up in a fusillade. Worsening the situation is the "don't snitch" mentality that pervades the area--which is understandable to some extent because if word gets out you are cooperating with the police--you may be the next target.
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Old January 15, 2012, 09:17 AM   #84
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I believe if someone is patient and up front willing to give their life to take yours or your belongings it wont matter how many extra loaded mags you have on your side or who’s classes you took your finished.. You can’t pull a gun on everyone you meet or every car that pulls along side you at a red light.. Well I guess you could stay locked in a safe room. Be aware of your surroundings and enjoy life it gets away to soon.
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Old January 15, 2012, 09:34 AM   #85
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Good points cornbread. The situation here in Chattanooga has clearly spiraled out of control and considering what a small city it is--it could easily happen elsewhere in the US. Yes--I may be a bit paranoid--but day-to-day life in a war zone does that to you. The gunfire and shootings are all too real--encouraged to some extent by the failure of the city to adequately contain the problem. I hate to bring race into the picture--but my feeling is that there is an attitude of "as long as the drugs and shootings are in the non-white parts of the city, out of sight is out of mind."
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Old January 15, 2012, 05:57 PM   #86
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Those who don't have no advantage at all over those who can't.
Love that quote pax.

It's a fact.

Just yesterday I was at the indoor range doing my hip shooting (true hip shooting, belt level) and then bring the gun up to a Iso style grip and add a head shot. All under my regular cloths using my CCW holster and practice Glock 26.

Some shooters, after I was finished, commented on the shooting. I showed them my all metal Glock practice 26 (it's one of those holster molding cast aluminum guns) and my Glock 26 airsoft I converted to a laser gun. They understood then how I became proficient, but neither of them asked where to get their own.

I see that all the time. Comments like 'wow that is cool', but now 'show me how to do that'. They still just sit there and fire two handed, no drawing, at 5 to 7 yard targets, slow fire.

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Old January 15, 2012, 06:45 PM   #87
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The range[s] in this area encourage poking holes in paper from a static position. No drawing from holster. No side stepping. You will shoot from one of the standard positions or not at all. That being said, the guy "practicing" in a deserted building has no rules to follow.
A few years ago, our local police dept. had an active shooter come out of the house onto his front porch. The cops shot many dozens of rounds at the guy. All missed! Practice doesn't make perfect.
One of my pet peeves is the use of the term "assault rifle". If folks would take the minute it takes to look it up they would fine that an assault rifle has a selector switch. People refer to any military looking rifle as an "assault rifle". A semi-auto is just that no matter what kind of furniture it has.
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Old January 16, 2012, 01:36 PM   #88
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Time to introduce some real data to this discussion.

A 2006 study of criminals that got into gun fights with cops had the following findings:
Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% "regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year," the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods,back yards and "street corners in known drug-trafficking areas."

One spoke of being motivated to improve his gun skills by his belief that officers "go to the range two, three times a week [and] practice arms so they can hit anything."

More than 40% of the offenders had been involved in actual shooting confrontations before they feloniously assaulted an officer. Ten of these "street combat veterans," all from "inner-city, drug-trafficking environments," had taken part in 5 or more "criminal firefight experiences" in their lifetime.

The offenders said they most often hid guns on their person in the front waistband, with the groin area and the small of the back nearly tied for second place. Some occasionally gave their weapons to another person to carry, "most often a female companion." None regularly used a holster, and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon.

"They practice getting the gun out and using it," Davis explained. "They shoot for effect." Or as one of the offenders put it: "[W]e're not working with no marksmanship....We just putting it in your direction, you know....It don't matter...as long as it's gonna hit you...if it's up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever....Once I squeeze and you fall, then...if I want to execute you, then I could go from there."

Read more:
http://www.forcesciencenews.com/home...html?serial=62

Moral to the story is to take nothing for granted, and train and prepare like you're up against multiple combat hardened veterans, who practice regularly. Because you could well be. Granted, this is a study of the guys who had the gumption to attack a LEO, but still, it is telling.
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Old January 16, 2012, 01:46 PM   #89
hangglider
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From the same report: "--have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger. "If you hesitate," one told the study's researchers, "you're dead. You have the instinct or you don't. If you don't, you're in trouble on the street...." and 'none of the attackers interviewed was "hindered by any law--federal, state or local--that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership. They just laughed at gun laws."'
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Old January 16, 2012, 02:06 PM   #90
C0untZer0
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wow

Thanks for posting that study.
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Old January 16, 2012, 03:32 PM   #91
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The range[s] in this area encourage poking holes in paper from a static position. No drawing from holster. No side stepping. You will shoot from one of the standard positions or not at all.
Same here, not much choice on what you can practice with real firing.
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Old January 16, 2012, 06:03 PM   #92
C0untZer0
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A new range opened by me and after a month new rules started piling up.

At first they allowed shotguns, Judges with no restrictions. People with Judges were hitting everything - the ceiling, the floor, the walls, target holders, other shooter's target holders. And some shotgunners, instead of patterning their gun in close and then moving the target out incremental distances, they'd run the target all the way to the back wall, pull the trigger and create some huge pattern, and also blow the target holder all to pieces

So they had to make a rule - and now shooters can only fire bullets or slugs.

The same thing happened with practice drawing from a holster.

It's unfortunate and this is a case where the bad guys actually get better practice than I do. They go to an abandoned house or something and practice drawing.

I practice drawing and dry firing but that's about it...

I am going to join a group of action shooters... I'll get some extra practice in and practice of the type that I can't do at a public range.
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Old January 16, 2012, 06:04 PM   #93
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Find and join an IDPA or USPSA club, and odds are they will have a facility where you can practice a lot of that stuff for matches.

IDPA.org has club listings and the rule book online. I don't know the USPSA site, but I'm sure it would be easy to google.
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Old January 16, 2012, 07:07 PM   #94
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Somewhere in an F.B.I. report they said the hit ratio for the bad guys was about 70%. LEO's 16%-24%. And I know some organizations are much better. These are averages. The shootings I've seen have been ambushes. A man walks up to someone in a crowd. Has his gun out of sight. Gets close to his target and with one hand point shoots the victim in the chest, neck and/or head. Quickly disappears. No two handed stance, front sight focus, or so on. Argue all you want to. Point shooting works up close.
It said one way they practice is to shoot at cans and try to keep hitting them as they move. Hitting a small, moving target is great practice. And they have usually survived gunfights and will not hesitate to shoot. Combat mind set of criminals. If you're a civilian most of your training should be close. You're not rapped, mugged, or assualted at 25 yards.
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Old January 16, 2012, 08:11 PM   #95
Glenn E. Meyer
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Read a book by an FBI agent. He was talking about training of bad guys and referenced a wire tap.

One bad guy asked the other what he did yesterday as was going to do today. The reply - went to the desert to practice with pistols and today going to the high school track to run.

Mentioned that 80% of BGs practice at least once a year and 30% each month.

As far as civilians - joining an action club is great. Shooting IDPA is great. I do it all the time BUT - be sure you get, if you can, some professional training. They are different beasts.
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Old January 16, 2012, 11:51 PM   #96
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I enjoyed reading this post and was setting here reflecting on my life's experience.

Being an old guy, I have wandered far and wide. In the over half dozen times I have taken close range fire, all missed. (Thankfully). However I was interested in the FBI interview article, where the BG just point shot.

Back in the late 70's a friend of mine appeared on "Believe it or Not" TV show several time shooting from the hip. (Shotgun, 22LR) I asked him one day how he learned that. He took me into the back yard gave me some ping pong balls and a Red Rider BB gun. I would toss the ball into the air, and shoot from the hip with the BB gun...2 days of practice and I was using a 22 and aspirins with a high percentage of hits. Lesson, practice what you want to learn. (If you have the desire and concentrate on learning).

During this time I was actively shooting IPSC. Before the days of electronic sights and race guns, and major caliber was only made by a 45 or a hot 38 super. To do an "el Presidente" exercise (turn, draw, 6 shots on 3 targets, reload and 6 more shots on 3 targets), and do it in the 6 second range with a score above 55 out of a possible 60 was pretty quick. I could do it (then).

I tried to do it a few months ago for the 1st time in 40 years....I now had only 2 speeds.....fast and inaccurate, or slow and accurate...If you want to keep those skills, you got to continue to practice.

For me I now cheat...I use my Crimson Trace on the 45, but I'm not yet back to where I was using full power loads...But spring is some months away.
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Old January 17, 2012, 05:01 PM   #97
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I am definitely joining the gun club where I am moving to and have already talked to them about it. They have 2 ranges, both outside, thank God. I don't really care for indoor ranges anymore, I just go out of necessity.
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Old January 17, 2012, 05:43 PM   #98
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Practice does not mean they can actually hit anything, but at bad breath range accuracy is not all that important.
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Old January 20, 2012, 11:56 AM   #99
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I see a lot of posts by people who are saying they're very well trained for shooting.

I dont see any posts on how well trained they are for getting shot at.

Granted, there are not many places you can really do that. The mental reaction though of being shot at will make the difference in your physical reaction. Criminals dont neccesarily need to be great shots. They have the mental capability of dealing with "life on the edge." And I'd say in a great number of cases, all that is needed to cripple someone is do it mentally. A quick succesion of shots fired your way, accurate or not is often enough to do that to most people. Add in the fact that many probably are better shots then most would like to assume, and you have a very dangerous and lucrative (for lack of a better word) situation.

Just a little FYI for those who think combat vets are a big issue. About 30,000 of the 198,000 Marines are in a combat MOS, the rest is support personnel and dont see much combat if any. Many of the combat personnel dont even see much either. Not saying theres not battalions who havent been put through hell and back, but the numbers of potential combat hardened criminals narrows down significantly.

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Old January 20, 2012, 07:53 PM   #100
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Quote:
Mentioned that 80% of BGs practice at least once a year and 30% each month.
That's ok with me. I practice a heck of a lot more.

Quote:
Practice does not mean they can actually hit anything, but at bad breath range accuracy is not all that important.
Hmmm. I guess the USMC don't need to practice if it don't mean anything. Neither does the FBI, or DEA, or PDs, or oh heck, anyone.

Nothing guarantees success but I assure you, hard correct practice does give you an edge. Especially if you keep that practice up.

Add to that some guts and maturity and you will have stacked the deck on your side.

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