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Old January 10, 2012, 08:23 PM   #51
csmsss
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Many gang members have been involved in shootouts. Many have shot other people and have been shot themselves. What that means is that many are NOT going to be shaking in their boots when confronted by you or me. They're the ones more likely to have "combat" experience--maybe a lot of it. Even if it means just pointing a gun and spraying bullets.

Most are still probably bad shots, but that doesn't mean they aren't dangerous, given the close nature of shootings.

Not a pleasant thought, but some may have the right mental attitude for winning gun fights. Some may run like rabbits if someone fights back.

Don't worry about their attitude. Worry about yours.
I couldn't agree more. Many/most gangbangers are more than happy to put themselves in harm's way to get what they want - whether that be your money, your wife, or the "respect" of their gangbanger buddies. Their lives are lived on the street, and the things that are precious to us are, generally, irrelevant to them. So...in that encounter you may find yourself involved in with one or more of these fellas, ask yourself a question. Am I as determined to win as he is? Am I as willing as he is to risk grievous bodily injury/death to prevail? Am I as willing as he is to inflict grievous bodily injury/death upon my opponent? Because if you cannot answer each and every one of these questions with the same answer (Yes, of course), you are unlikely to win such an encounter.
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Old January 10, 2012, 10:20 PM   #52
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More denial with all encompassing derogatory statements. For many, being a badguy is a job and one they work very hard at being a bad guy.
Oh sure. Someone who points a gun at someone to get a car is working just as hard as the guy who's been making the payments for 4 years.

And I'll be as derogatory as I want with crooks who will kill people to take their things.

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I'm lazy and I'm laid off for the winter, so does that mean I'm in danger of loosing my Good Guy status?
That's not what I said. Go rob a liquor store and we'll talk about it.
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Old January 10, 2012, 11:11 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by pax View Post
"If you are fighting for your life in a gunfight today, today is not your lucky day." ~ Tom Givens

pax
Maybe "The more I practice avoidance and situational awareness, the luckier I get." would be a better quote.

'Cause I agree, no matter how much one practices with firearms, being involved in a shooting is very unlucky.
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Old January 11, 2012, 12:21 AM   #54
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I've worked with felons for 10 years and if there is one thing they understand, it's pure naked force. I've met some that were walking suits of skin with nothing human inside, and believe the whole world is there for their pleasure only. Getting in the way of that is "disrespect" and worthy of death.

Amazing how often those who claim someone is disrespecting them started off being the disrespectful ones, but will never see it that way, for the exact same reason above.

I plan as if my home invader can fight like Chuck Norris and shoot like Angus Hobdell - I will do everything I can to put the advantage on my side, same as on the street.
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Old January 11, 2012, 01:59 AM   #55
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More shootings to end the day--one of which involving an assault rifle (which are becoming more popular in drive-by shootings): http://timesfreepress.com/news/2012/.../?breakingnews http://timesfreepress.com/news/2012/...t-lake-courts/ I think it's safer to assume that the gangstahs are going to use anything they can get their hands on anytime but are smart enough to train themselves. I have no idea what to do defensively when somebody opens up with an assault rifle and all I have is a CCW pistol except hope that some kind of cover is available. My situational awareness of vehicles has changed completely.

Last edited by hangglider; January 11, 2012 at 02:13 AM.
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Old January 11, 2012, 02:11 AM   #56
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Just because a news report describes a firearm as an "assault rifle", does not necessarily mean it actually is an assault rifle. I wouldn't assume that the news report is accurate.
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Old January 11, 2012, 02:25 AM   #57
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I think the odds of a police officer recognizing an assault rifle for what it is are pretty good. I hear 30 round mags going off in the neighborhood quite frequently--there's no doubt in my mind some of the gangstahs have em and know how to use them. A couple of days ago a vehicle was found at he scene of a shooting--all the windows were blown out and it was riddled with bullets from front to back. Typical MO for gangs is get in and out fast.
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Old January 11, 2012, 09:54 AM   #58
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It's becoming a war zone here. I don't think people really understand modern gang growth in urban USA these days. Interestingly, the city council just nixed a funding request for a study on gangs. While most of the serious violence seems to be directed at each other in the gang community--the consequences are tearing apart the social fabric of the community as a whole and the costs are without a doubt going to hit everyone--even if they are not necessarily in a gangstah's gunsights. To get some idea of how socially pervasive the gang problem is, all you have to do is look at the kids in school: http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2...ds-of-times-a/ The penal system reaches an "overload" point and BGs are turned back out onto the street for "lesser" crimes--the guy who took shots at the cops this weekend during a house robbery had been arrested 23 times according to one TV news report.
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Old January 11, 2012, 11:16 AM   #59
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In other words, it's just like during Prohibition, only we put more people in jail now.
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Old January 11, 2012, 01:39 PM   #60
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In other words, it's just like during Prohibition, only we put more people in jail now.
Only back then, there were no repeat offenders in Capital Murder ..... and "died in prison" was quite common.....
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Old January 11, 2012, 01:43 PM   #61
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Think little girls aren't a potential threat? http://timesfreepress.com/news/2012/.../?breakingnews
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Old January 11, 2012, 03:10 PM   #62
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Oh sure. Someone who points a gun at someone to get a car is working just as hard as the guy who's been making the payments for 4 years.

And I'll be as derogatory as I want with crooks who will kill people to take their things.
The issue isn't with name calling, but name calling that mischaracterizes the threat. I know it makes us all feel better to make it an US against THEM where we are all that is good and right with the world and they are all that is wrong with it, but classifying bad guys as lazy is a great way to underestimate their abilities.

Funny thing. When we find "easier" ways to make money legally, we call it being smart. When bad guys do it illegally, we call them being lazy. We also call them cowards despite often being involved in very aggressive violent acts. They are cowards for choosing targets that they can most easily overwhelm to accomplish their goals, often in sneaky ways. When the military does this, we call it being strategically smart.
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Old January 11, 2012, 06:20 PM   #63
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What makes some people think all criminals are bad shots?

Wishful thinking...
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Old January 12, 2012, 04:49 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Funny thing. When we find "easier" ways to make money legally, we call it being smart. When bad guys do it illegally, we call them being lazy. We also call them cowards despite often being involved in very aggressive violent acts. They are cowards for choosing targets that they can most easily overwhelm to accomplish their goals, often in sneaky ways. When the military does this, we call it being strategically smart.
Yeah, this is exactly it. I've seen both sides, and in the end that is what it amounts to.
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Old January 12, 2012, 10:01 AM   #65
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Well, people liked to think bullies suffered from poor self-esteem, too; yet recent studies show they actually suffer from self-importance and self-entitlement, and in fact rarely have low self-esteem.

Victims, OTOH, have a host of self-esteem issues.

But even a hard-working and astute bad guy is still, by his choices and actions, a bad guy.
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Old January 12, 2012, 10:05 AM   #66
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That's also an oversimplification. The bank foreclosing on your property, unpopular as such an action may be, is still a legal transaction. The local ganglord (not likely in the US at the moment, but done in economic disaster areas like Argentina during the economic meltdown) deciding that he's going to use your house as his HQ so he clears you out (fatally or by eviction at gunpoint) is comparable only at the most basic level. One is a legal (likely distasteful) action, the other is a violent crime.

I think the definition is that anyone who is committing or attempting to commit a violent crime against me is a bad guy. He can sing in the choir, he can have 14 kids that he's having trouble supporting, he may be a member of the clergy - but if he's trying to break into my house or threatening me or anyone else, he's a bad guy. Any attempt to equate him (or her) with people performing legal acts is giving the violent person a legitimacy that they do not deserve.
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Old January 12, 2012, 10:08 AM   #67
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This as wandered way off topic - bring it back or we have to close it.
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Old January 12, 2012, 10:28 AM   #68
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"What makes some people think all criminals are bad shots?"

Have the criminals been as thoroughly trained as all police officers?

Take that anyway you like. It's just food for thought.
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Old January 12, 2012, 10:57 AM   #69
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Because we watch fiction on television.

If we watched news on television we would realize that good or bad, they hit plenty of cops and other people whom they choose to prey upon.

In all of my life, I don't think I've ever heard of a case in which attempted homicide meant that the bad guy simply missed his intended target.
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Old January 12, 2012, 11:43 AM   #70
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Sorry.
I know it is old but I couldn't resist.

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Old January 12, 2012, 12:33 PM   #71
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I think in most places the gun laws are oddly skewed in that the consequences to law abiding citizens are fairly severe while the impacts to criminals are relatively minor.

In Illinois the sentence for possesion of a firearm by a felon is 2 to 10 years, but if the charge isn't plead for cooperation - they usually only get a 4 year sentence.

There are are plenty of examples where guys get out of prison - go back to doing what they were doing, and in the case of drugs - they're engaging in an illegal activity that can get them 30 years - so what is the disincentive to use a firearm?

There have been plenty of examples of police responding to a report of gunfire, and when they investigate the scene, it turns out gang members were practicing in an abondoned building or something.

I do wish the NRA had something like what Mothers Against Drunk Driving has - where they would lobby for tougher sentencing and tougher laws for felons using guns.

I do think that law-abiding citizens shoud have an advantage in that we have the ability to go to ranges and training schools and practice, whereas - in Illinois at least, unless criminals are forging FOID cards, they can't go to the range. And if sentences were tougher, it would be much riskier for felons to practice with their firearms.
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Old January 12, 2012, 01:38 PM   #72
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count?

Do you really think thugs give 3 farts in a windstorm about a FOID card?

Or will pay money to shoot at an indoor range? There are plenty of places to shoot, if you don't care about legalities or respect others property or safety.
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Old January 12, 2012, 03:49 PM   #73
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I would never ever, and I mean ever ASSUME that a bad guy with a gun can not, or will not shoot it effectively enough to hit me. Truth be told most times they attack from distances that are hard to miss from, and do not care if they miss with a couple of shots. They do not care about stray shots, they do not care if they hit bystanders.

Truth be told few if any would be in the front running for an IDPA, or IPSC competition. That does not mean they would miss someone if they were shooting at them.
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Old January 12, 2012, 04:06 PM   #74
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As many have rightly noted, the whole idea behind this thread was not under estimating ones advesaries.

It wasn't to glorify criminals, or try to make assumptions about how many, LEOs, military personal, etc turn to crime. Nor to subscribe to them top notch shooting abilities.

In my view though too many people assume all,or the very vast majority of criminals are ineffectual with firearms.

Below is a story that appeared today on Drudge.

Three teenagers shot in Southeast D.C., one near school

We don't know the details of distance, weapon used, number of shots fired etc, but two not seriously wounded and one in serious condition.

No one was killed, but they were all hit and DC isn't known for being an area where people can easily practice, or have access to large supplies of ammunition.
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Old January 12, 2012, 04:16 PM   #75
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as far as criminals shooting ability , I believe they are like anyone else. Some lazy and rob up close and personal. Some dont ever shoot and couldnt hit the broad side of a barn if they had too. Some civilian and leo are the same. Cant hit nothing, dont ever practice or anything and then there are those who do practice and are awesome. Leos, civilians and gangbangers. Its basically the same in all walks in life, THE QUESTION IS, WHICH ARE YOU?
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