The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 9, 2012, 09:37 AM   #1
hangglider
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2011
Posts: 212
Mugging assault

I'm guessing this question has already been answered elsewhere--but I couldn't find it--so here's my question:

I live in an area where large roving gangs of gang-members are very common--and assaults, fighting and shootings are common. I recently got a CCW--but one of my biggest fears is that because I would not want to draw absent "immediate threat of serious injury or death" I could be physically assaulted and possibly have my firearm removed and used against me. What tactics are legal in a scenario like this?
hangglider is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 10:13 AM   #2
CowTowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2007
Location: Cowtown of course!
Posts: 1,103
Sounds to me like you might want some training and a conversation with a lawyer in your area.
A lawyer familiar with your state/local gun laws and use of deadly force should be able to explain exactly what you can and cannot do.
The training aspect should be obvious. IMHO, we can all use training every now and then.
__________________
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearm Safety and Pistol Instructor
"There are three classes of people: those who see, those who see when they are shown, those who do not see."
Leonardo da Vinci
CowTowner is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 11:24 AM   #3
hangglider
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2011
Posts: 212
I was hoping for a little pro bono here. I find it hard to imagine others have not faced the same legal-implications dilemma with the same question--though I get the drift that it may vary from state to state. thanks.
hangglider is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 11:32 AM   #4
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,958
It's not clear what you're asking here. Are you asking what you should do if you think you are being mugged but aren't in fear for your life?
csmsss is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 12:00 PM   #5
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 9,483
Hangglider, it's hard to say what the laws are since we don't know where you live. It's great that you hold us in such high esteem, but relying exclusively on legal advice from an internet forum, especially on something so potentially dire, is not a good idea.

Since this is more about training than it is about Law or Civil Rights, we're off to Tactics & Training.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 12:13 PM   #6
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,606
Let's do a boundary-value problem here:

"Officer, [the individual I perceived to be a Gangbanger] looked at me and I felt threatened so I shot him...."
- (Prediction: That ain't gonna fly.)

"Officer, the guy got into my face, his friends punched me to the ground, yelled Gang threats of how they were now going to kill me and pulled guns ...so I shot them...."
- (Prediction: That would probably result in no charges at all.... except in New York, Massachusetts, Chicago, San Francisco, etc))

"Officer, the guys [who later turned out to be 13-14 years old] with red baseball caps came up to me, told me to get out of their territory, reached into their pockets and pulled out [what later proved to be a pellet guns] so I shot them..."
- (Prediction: You're definitely going to jury trial and you'd better be able to convince the a panel of people who've just come from Starbucks w/ their Latte's that you were in reasonable fear for your life from kids w/ toys.)

BOTTOM LINE: You need to go take a self-defense class where most of the course work emphasizes the legal issues and lots of case studies/examples. You also need to have thought all this out ahead of time -- and you are still going to be rolling the dice.
mehavey is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 12:14 PM   #7
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Legally... your state may or may not have a "Duty to Retreat." You will want to consult a lawyer, ideally; at the least, consult a certified concealed carry instructor, and ask for paper copies and/or links to applicable regulations for your state.

At a more general level, most places require you to establish that a reasonable person, given the knowledge you had at the time, and placed in the same situation, would have done what you chose to do. Most places require you to establish that you feared death or great/grave bodily harm, and that the assailant(s) had the ability, the opportunity, and the active intent to harm you at the time you took action.

You asked about gangs. Disparity of force can be established when there are multiple assailants. (It could also be established by young person vs old person; adult vs child; healthy person vs crippled person; male vs female.)

That can take care of the "ability" aspect.

But again, you really should either consult an attorney, or at least get a competent trainer to point you at the applicable regulations.

Now, on a tactical level - getting into a shootout with a gang is obviously something to avoid, ideally by avoiding the gang in the first place.

If you can't avoid the gang, and can't avoid a confrontation... it might be wisest to hand over a wallet. (Some people carry spare wallets, with some throwaway cash and useless items in them, just for this purpose.)

Otherwise, hopefully A) You've trained at dealing with multiple assailants; B) the gang decides to leave when you draw, or, failing that, when the first gang member is hit; and C) You are prepared to move somewhere else, shortly thereafter, because gangs often hold grudges, and tend to have a lot of members who don't really worry about collateral damage when they decide to get back at somebody.

So, I'd focus on awareness and avoidance, and I'd only draw on a gang if I thought it was truly the only viable option.

YMMV.

And check with an attorney or instructor in your area.
MLeake is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 12:21 PM   #8
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
mehavey, I disagree with your last example.

There have been plenty of cases where criminals have used pellet guns or toys, made to look like real guns, and have been shot. Indictments are often not issued, if charges are pressed in the first place.

There have also been plenty of cases of deadly assaults by 13 year olds. Ditto.

I do agree that being able to concisely explain why you thought what you did could be critical. "They came at me and started circling me; two were threatening me with baseball bats and demanding money; the third one reached for something in his pocket and came out with what looked like a gun, saying he was going to kill me."

Obviously, don't describe something that did not happen. Don't give some cliche line you got off the internet, either. Just be able to clearly and concisely say what behaviors you saw that made you fear for life and limb. (Do not try to say what their state of mind was, stick with actions and stated intentions.)
MLeake is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 12:44 PM   #9
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,211
I agree one should never seek legal advice on the internet.

I agree one should seek all the training he can, its never ending.

But I would like to see a law that when some one comes on the internet and ask questions, they should first list their locations.

Rules for a big city vs. middle of no-where Wyoming are bound to be different as are training requirements.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 12:49 PM   #10
ltc444
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 3, 2011
Location: Vernon AZ
Posts: 1,195
Another point of attack which is often used by prosecutors is the reason you were at the location.

I went to the store to get diapers and formula for my baby girl. Is a good reason.

I was picking up beer or some other negative item may be used to show you were at fault for attracting the attention of the BG(s).

Your immediate statements will be used against you. Bernad Goetz's immediate tramatized statements were what nearly convicted him of murder as a results of the Long Island Railroad shooting.

Keep your mouth shut about the shooting. Do not refuse the interview but wait to make a statement at a later time and date with your lawyer present.

Staying cool in the aftermath of a shooting is as important as remaining cool when you are engaged in the lethal encounter.
ltc444 is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 01:53 PM   #11
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,437
You need training. All of the advice you get on the internet won't even scratch the surface of the practical information you would get from real training. This reminds me - I haven't done any serious handgun training (other than shooting paper targets) in about a year, I'm probably due for some more.
Skans is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 02:38 PM   #12
hangglider
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2011
Posts: 212
OK--let me get some more information on the table and maybe that will help.

While I think "requiring" location on an Internet post crosses the line in terms of privacy--I've already revealed in other posts that I live in Chattanooga, TN. Violent crime, shootings and murders have reached epidemic levels here, mostly related to gang activity--but not always. Roving gangs are very common in my neighborhood, and I do have dogs which I have to walk several times a day. Kinda sucks if you feel the "prudent" thing is to stay indoors and never go anywhere for fear of provoking an attack.

Up till now I've been mostly "smart-mouthed" and I am NOT a confrontational person--I am the chicken that's going to always walk or run away if at all possible--so my real question was not exactly "what if I draw and blow a guy away" during a gang encounter.

However--unless you've encountered these kinds of people and seen what they can do very quickly, you may not really appreciate what I'm asking.

I'm really wondering if I'm making my situation worse by carrying at all--because my inclination would be to not draw unless faced with deadly force. Given that, I could see being "swarmed" by a gang, disarmed of my carry and then God knows what.

I'm not questioning that additional training is in order--though even that is hard to figure--do I need to become a black-belt martial artist or chapion-level boxer? (I'm actually a pretty old, moderately out-of-shape guy who just doesn't have the time or money for extensive committed training)
hangglider is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 02:46 PM   #13
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
If you think it likely that you would be disarmed, you might be better off not carrying.

Training could help, and is always recommended, but the mindset would also need to change for carry to become a good option.
MLeake is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 02:59 PM   #14
JerryM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,884
Your instructor should have covered such situations. I have CCW licenses in several states, and in each and every one the criterion for using deadly force is if you fear death or serious bodily harm.

Disparity of force is a factor. If one is attacked by a gang, of any age, the disparity of force would be justification if you feared for your life or great bodily harm. So I just do not worry about such things in any state I go to.

If you have doubts go to your instructor, the agency who issues the license or a lawyer.
In my state I sometimes help the instructor who did my instruction, and is a personal friend. He covers all such stuff and the state and federal laws that are germane. Sometimes the laws are 'kinda boring, but I do not think anyone would ask such questions if they had taken his class.

I am convinced that most CCW instructors need instruction themselves.

Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13 *┬ÂLet us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 *For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
JerryM is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 03:25 PM   #15
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
For free pro-bono training and advice I would suggest you watch Death Wish I through Death Wish V (The Face of Death).

A lot of good FREE training pointers in there.


.

Last edited by C0untZer0; January 9, 2012 at 03:42 PM.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 03:25 PM   #16
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,291
And one difficulty with these sorts of discussions is that there is no kind of cookbook approach. It's not a matter of "if he does this, you can/should do this." There are just too many variables.

I agree that the best start would be education -- one or more good self defense class where you can learn about both the law and the use of your tools. This is a good discussion of general, non-state specific, use of force law.

And think about --
  • How you can use your situational awareness and social skills to recognize when things might be getting dicey and then consider how to avoid or evade those situations. The first line of defense is recognizing and getting away from possible trouble.

  • Think about possible situations and how, if you choose to respond with force, you would be able to convincingly articulate why you reasonably believed yourself to be at risk of immediate death or grave bodily injury -- and therefore needed to use lethal force in self defense.

  • Improving your proficiency with your gun.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 03:36 PM   #17
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Quote:
Another point of attack which is often used by prosecutors is the reason you were at the location.

I went to the store to get diapers and formula for my baby girl. Is a good reason.

I was picking up beer or some other negative item may be used to show you were at fault for attracting the attention of the BG(s).

Paul Kersey: I'm going out for some ice cream... this is America, isn't it?




.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 03:55 PM   #18
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,606
Quote:
mehavey, I disagree with your last example.

There have been plenty of cases where criminals have used pellet guns or toys, made to look like real guns, and have been shot. Indictments are often not issued, if charges are pressed in the first place.

There have also been plenty of cases of deadly assaults by 13 year olds. Ditto.
'Didn't say [you] might not/wouldn't eventually be exonerated, but did say you'd be desperately explaining it [potentially to a jury] if it happened simply because of the pressure from "...but it was just a child..." bleeding hearts. No matter what happens at that point, your very expensive [and very needed] lawyer probably owns the 2nd mortgage on your house and your childrens' college savings.

Killing someone -- even in the most defensible of circumstances -- opens all sorts of change in your life.
mehavey is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 03:57 PM   #19
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,792
hangglider,

fiddletown posted the link I would have posted if he hadn't: www.useofforce.us Go read that!

After reading the pages behind fiddletown's link, I suggest you also check out Marc MacYoung's pages at www.nononsenseselfdefense.com, especially his Five Stages of Violent Crime page, his page about Robberies, and his information about not backing down (which every young man should read!)

That might help you get a more realistic picture of what you need to know in order to stay out of trouble.

Hope this helps.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 04:39 PM   #20
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,437
Quote:
But I would like to see a law that when some one comes on the internet and ask questions, they should first list their locations.
YIKES! I don't think I want to live in that country.

Chattanooga is a pretty gun-friendly city. Lots of folks cc in Chattanooga. But, you don't want to screw up. And, you you want to be prepared.

Ok, here are a few suggestions:

1. Carry whatever you think you will actually carry on you most of the time.

2. Get a decent holster that permits you to carry and draw from concealment as easily as possible.

3. Practice drawing from concealment at home (unloaded of course). Do it from a standing position; from a sitting position; lying on your back - practice with friends if possible. Just being able to quickly draw your firearm is an accomplishment and is something you can practice at home. Do this a lot, over and over and over.

4. Get some snap-caps and practice squeezing the trigger.

5. Don't put any gadgets on your gun like lasers, lights, fancy sights, etc.

6. Practice "situational awareness". Parking lots, atm machines, coming in and out of stores, places of business - constantly evaluate your surroundings - gangs don't just mysteriously appear out of nowhere. Think about escape routs - I make this into a game, it's fun!

7. Bottom line - if even sense that a gang has targeted me, or is even eying me with bad intent. My hand will be on my gun while it is still in concealment, ready to deploy at any moment. I would not wait for someone to start beating on me.

Example: 9:00 pm coming out of Home Depot. I was unarmed, but my gun was in my car glove box. I saw a car full of "hoods" nearby. I noticed a man standing right next to the driver's side door of my car - didn't know what he was doing. I unlocked my car, reached in the passenger side door and retrieved my gun from my glove box. Turns out the guy was peeing - gun was down by my side and ready to go, if needed. I kept my distance, but was able to see what he was doing. I simply let the guy finish - keeping distance between he and I and he just left.

That made me realize the necessity of carrying most, if not all of the time. If you are aware and carrying, you'll know when to pull that gun out. Normal folks just don't cross certain lines, and you'll know when personal boundaries are being intentionally crossed.
Skans is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 04:48 PM   #21
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Pretty sure he was being facetious about the requirement location, although his point was that location and jurisdiction will sometimes result in very different answers.
MLeake is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 04:57 PM   #22
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
mehavey, you said
Quote:
Prediction: You're definitely going to jury trial and you'd better be able to convince the a panel of people who've just come from Starbucks w/ their Latte's that you were in reasonable fear for your life from kids w/ toys.
Definitely going to jury trial is hardly the same as
Quote:
you'd be desperately explaining it [potentially to a jury] if it happened simply because of the pressure
So, for one thing, that's quite a fallback. For another, it's still not necessarily so. Such cases do not automatically go to a jury, or even a grand jury. Some jurisdictions (such as Oklahoma, for recent example) do not require a DA to take a case before the grand jury, if the DA thinks it is not a good case.

Now, in your follow-on post, you say,
Quote:
No matter what happens at that point, your very expensive [and very needed] lawyer probably owns the 2nd mortgage on your house and your childrens' college savings.
Aside from the fact that this is more or less unlikely, depending on where you are (and whether the shoot was obviously good, notwithstanding the decedent's age), there are ways to deal with that potential problem.

My way, and here's a plug for senior member Marty Hayes, was to join the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network. In the event, God forbid, that I ever have to shoot somebody, then so long as the shooting appears good to ACLDN's investigators, ACLDN will front the legal bills, to a variable upper limit; additionally, I will be guaranteed expert representation, most likely by Marty. Additionally, since I've completed a MAG course with Massad Ayoob, I have Mas' guarantee that he will act as expert defense witness if he thinks it's a good shoot.

ACLDN: http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/

Massad Ayoob Group: http://massadayoobgroup.com/

Consider it legal insurance. The training was good, too, both with Mas and Marty.
MLeake is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 05:05 PM   #23
hangglider
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2011
Posts: 212
Thank you Skans, MLeake and Kathy--useful suggestions that I can reasonably action on is what I was hoping for.

One other thing: I've spent more than the last 20 years living in "inner city" high crime areas--due mostly to work and/or contractual obligations. I've successfully evaded more than one potential mugging and shooting encounter in that time--so I'm not as naive about this stuff as my first posts might make me out to be.

What I see going on down here in Chattanooga is a game-changer. These gangs are more pervasive in the community (meaning from children to adults) and in some cases connected to larger crime organizations and cartels. Arms, tactics and brazenness of gang related violent crime has escalated to the point where the city (Chattanooga is more of a "big town" than a real city), IMO, does not have either the resources, the will, or the ability to contain the accelerating rate of violent crime. I've seen these guys in action--often in groups of a half dozen or more working fast to beat police response times. All you have to do is read the daily news here to see that they often will shoot without hesitation--in fact predatory sniping is all too common.

I never felt this way even when I lived in downtown Washington DC when it was the murder capital of the USA.

Last edited by hangglider; January 9, 2012 at 05:15 PM.
hangglider is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 06:12 PM   #24
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,437
Hanglider, I'm sorry to hear that about Chattanooga. I spend a considerable amount of time there right downtown and haven't ever had a problem with any of this. I like to jog and see lots of joggers around the river when I'm there. I really like Chattanooga.

Just curious, what part of town are you seeing all of the gang trouble? It would be good for me to be on top of this.
Skans is offline  
Old January 9, 2012, 06:39 PM   #25
hangglider
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2011
Posts: 212
South and east side. I live in Alton Park The city does a fair job in keeping the north side and touristy part of downtown relatively secure (though there was that gang-related club shooting downtown on Christmas when 9 people got shot). For a better idea where to be and not be, check out the "right to know" page of the local paper and scroll down to the crime map: http://www.timesfreepress.com/content/right2know/

Also this map does not include attempted or random shootings--which I know occurs in excess of what's on the map--so draw your own conclusions--but definitely use common sense when visiting here.
hangglider is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11407 seconds with 7 queries