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Old January 8, 2012, 03:59 PM   #1
Pointer
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SNIPER/LONG RANGE/Hunting Rifle

For the sake of this thread... here are MY definitions.

LONG RANGE is a distance well beyond 350 yards.
A SNIPER RIFLE is any rifle which is designed, accurized, and specifically setup for the purpose of making a head shot on the target, animal or human.
A HUNTING RIFLE weighs less than 10 pounds with mounted scope.
A LONG RANGE SCOPE has sufficient magnification to see the "head" of the target clearly at 1000 yards and has a reticle fine enough and sharp enough to see the "spot" intended to be the "point of impact."

In that spirit... Please note, I have read everything I can find on the internet and I am dizzy from the search.

MY QUESTIONS:

Can this imaginary rifle be gotten Off-the-Shelf?
(I have considered the Remington 700 Sendero?)

What caliber would you recommend for both elk hunting and enemies?
(I have considered the 300 Win Mag and 300 RUM? I'm a not sure about the 338 RUM)

What scopes are good for this application?
(I have considered the Vortex Viper PST in 4-16x 50mm?)

NO, I DON'T WANT TO SHOOT PEOPLE, PRONGHORNS OR ELK AT 1000 YARDS! However, I want a rifle that is capable of doing that. (What other brands and models are available? Thompson Icon? or..........?)

My maximum is UNDER $2000 total.

NO, I will not be hunting/shooting from distances greater than 600 yards.
But, I want a gun/scope combination that will shoot sub-half minute at "long ranges".

This should make for a lively discussion... so PLEASE keep it on subject.
My priority is Elk hunting and the sniper-like accuracy is important as a just-in-case sort of thing.


REASON:
I witnessed a fellow hunter taking a head shot at under two hundred yards. He blinded, but did not kill the spike elk... he had to chase the stumbling spiker through the trees for some distance before he could take another shot to finish the job...


BOTTOM LINE:
I want a NECK or BRAIN-shot rifle because, over the years, I have seen more elk heads than I have seen full-body broadsides.

Please don't pontificate about shot placement... I'm as good at shot placement as most anyone I know... so there's no need to "highjack" the thread.

Thank you all... very much.
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Old January 8, 2012, 04:25 PM   #2
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What you are looking for can be found well under $2000. Just go to the store and pick any off the shelf Model 70 Win., Model 700 Remington, Savage, or simular modern high power rifle.

A good quality 4-6 fixed power scope.

You don't need a magnum, a 270, 308, or '06 will do it.

If it can't be done with the above, then its not the rifle, its the shooter.
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Old January 8, 2012, 04:32 PM   #3
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The OP seems unnecessarily fixated on head shots. Snipers don't. They take the best shot that presents itself, not necessarily brain shots.
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Old January 8, 2012, 04:32 PM   #4
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How would a rifle be set up to specifically take head shots? Don't you just have to aim there?
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Old January 8, 2012, 04:32 PM   #5
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another caliber to consider is a .338 lapua. but as you step out to farther range an off the shelf rifle will have a harder time as you start getting into things on higher end rifles like match triggers, or jeweled trigger movement, or set triggers heavier barrels, pillar beading, or fully floated barrels etc etc.

a rifle that can do all reasonably well out of the box i would say is a m1a in 308


Quote:
A SNIPER RIFLE is any rifle which is designed, accurized, and specifically setup for the purpose of making a head shot on the target, animal or human.
head is the worst place to aim as its one of the smaller targets. A sniper is going to take the shot that is most likely to achieve his goal. usually a body shot.

even with a scoped rifle I have never aimed at a deer's head when hunting. and doing so i think would be careless and a reckless way to hunt zombies or animals.
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Old January 8, 2012, 04:35 PM   #6
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+1 to kraigwy's post.
Although I personally would like more power in the scope. 10-14X.
1/2 MOA is in the custom rifle area. Most straight factory guns seem to be in the 1MOA zone which should be sufficient for the o/p's needs. The Remington Sendero is a good choice but most of the others will do the job.
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Old January 8, 2012, 04:36 PM   #7
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You may want to take a look at this, $900 will buy a real nice scope.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...s_id/411540287
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Old January 8, 2012, 04:40 PM   #8
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Re-examine sniper, stud hoss...getting 1,000 yard head shots is not the mission. Second, two off the shelf rifles are well suited to the sniper role: the AI AW and the Sako TRG series. Others, such as the FN USA SPR series, are close behind, with the lowest cost variant good to go sells for $2,450. Remington 700s can be made ready for under $1,000 and, given the $550 price of a R700 SPS Varmint or SPS Long Action, represents an economy way to go. My SPS Varmint, NIB with no mods, shot to <1/2" with .308 FGMM.

As to calibers, .308 Win and .260 Rem are very popular and common, 7mm RM, .300 WM and .338 LM are frequently seen in long range shooting matches. Senderos come in mag calibers and the SA .308 version is available for Remmy in the Varmint SF as well. You'll probably want to replace the stock, even if you are, by your own casual admission, as good a shooter as anyone here.

The Vortex PST is very good as is the Leupy Mk 4 series. NightForce, USO and S&B will go nearly $2,000 by themselves.

A well set up precision rifle with glass will set you back $2,500-8,500 and weigh at least 12 pounds. I think you may find that most elk live in high, and frequently steep territory, and lugging a 12#-15# rifle up the side of a Rocky Mountain may be prohibitive. I hunt with a Savage 116 or Win M70 in .30-06...both are 7.5 pound rifles that, with glass (mine have 3-9x40 Zeiss Conquests), come in under 8.5#. Since the rifles are <1 MOA shooters w/ my Barnes TTSX handloads, I feel pretty confident out to 350 yards...and I wouldn't take a headshot from a field position much past 50 yards. YMMV since you are a self-admitted expert.

Remember, as the Lone Ranger said, "It ain't the arrows, Tonto!".

FH
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Old January 8, 2012, 05:28 PM   #9
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The other important consideration you have to have is the ammo, which Flatbush Harry touched on. A lot of normal ammo, even in high-dollar, top-notch rifles, won't group better than just under 1 moa or so because that is the limits of the quality control. You will likely need to be running high quality match ammo (expensive) or handload to have any chance at consistent long range sub-moa shooting. You might find a cheap factory load that just shoots exceptional in your rifle, but it will take some testing effort and luck.
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Old January 8, 2012, 05:56 PM   #10
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What you need my friend is a quantum plasma mega blaster with inter-core hydra coil magnification and heat seeking titanium flux core rounds... that outta do it


In all honesty, I can shoot my surplus k31 and get the results that you posted. Its all about knowledge and practice. Pretty much any off the shelf high power rifle can make 1000 yard shots. you do not need a sub MOA rifle to shoot at 1000 yards. You only need that to win competitions, not to place rounds on target.
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Old January 8, 2012, 06:21 PM   #11
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I don't think you can be sure of getting a "SUB half-minute" rifle off the shelf, from any manufacturer.

"Sub half-minute", is "sub half-minute", at any range. If it'll do it at 100 yards, it'll do it at 1000- most of the time. There are some exceptions, but for the most part, bullets fly the same from 100 to 1000 unless affected by external influences.

You might get lucky-happens sometimes with a production rifle.

Sub-minute, sure.
Sub half-minute, nah... can't bank on it.

That's the realm of custom builds. Like I said, anyone can get lucky.

Nor do I think there are many shooters that are capable printing a 3" group consistently at 600 yards with a 4x...even if the stick is capable of getting the job done.

But if you want a rifle guaranteed to shoot less than a half-minute of angle, only a custom builder will do that.

Your Vortex Viper PST is a great choice, and it would be mine...FFP is a big help for the type of accuracy you're trying to achieve at distance. But, that's almost half your budget, leaving about a grand for the rifle.

Pound and a half for the scope, leaves you 8-1/2 pounds for the rifle.
Personally, I would go with the Savage 111 Long Range Hunter in .300 WM or 7mm RM.

But I don't think you're gonna get sub half-minute accuracy from that gun, or any other rifle, for a grand.

Good luck, and let us know what you ended up with when you plunk down the plastic.
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Old January 8, 2012, 06:37 PM   #12
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Check out the FN SPR A2 on sale from Tac Coord
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Old January 8, 2012, 06:57 PM   #13
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Take a peek at Coopers... This one is 260 remington... Sub MOA from the factory!

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Old January 8, 2012, 07:07 PM   #14
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Old January 8, 2012, 07:41 PM   #15
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I get 1/4 MOA groups with my factory Savage 111 FCXP3 in 300 Win Mag shooting handloads. It shot 1/2 MOA on the first batch of rounds I loaded for it, and using the little 3-9x Bushnell scope it came with from the factory. After some load development and adding a 6-18x Nikon Buckmasters scope, I shoot consistent 1/2" groups at 200yds. I have what you described and I only paid $700 for it ($400 for the rifle, $300 for the scope). I might have just been one of the lucky ones, but my vote is get a Savage and use the money you save to put a decent piece of glass on it.
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Old January 8, 2012, 07:43 PM   #16
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doesnt the weatherby vanguard come in a sub moa version from the factory for like 699 or something like that?
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Old January 8, 2012, 08:00 PM   #17
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'You may want to take a look at this, $900 will buy a real nice scope. http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...s_id/411540287 "

I have this very rifle. It is 0.5 MOA out of the box. You won't get light out of it with glass though. Probably 12 lbs with glass and iPod.
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Old January 8, 2012, 08:49 PM   #18
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The tool is not the solution, it the operators ABILITY...

that counts.

All my deer rifle will group three shot within the radius of the "X" of a 200 yds standard target, from prone with sling. Talking M70, M88, & M100.

I use a M1 Garand(7.62mm, glass bedded per NM specs) & Cal.30 (Service grade), for over the course, 85% of 600 yds shots are withing the 10 ring.

Your friend needs to spend more time on the range, firing from position and not the bench. He should consider at minimum, .22LR silhouette shooting.

Most over the counter rifle are more accurate than the shooter, handloading increases the accuracy.
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Old January 8, 2012, 10:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
I have this very rifle. It is 0.5 MOA out of the box. You won't get light out of it with glass though. Probably 12 lbs with glass and iPod.
Is the iPod for the ballistics app?
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Old January 9, 2012, 02:03 AM   #20
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Thank you all...

Quote:
getting 1,000 yard head shots is not the mission
Agreed, and I said so in my thread start.

Quote:
Personally, I would go with the Savage 111 Long Range Hunter in .300 WM
Agreed! I think that's a nice choice!

Quote:
Your Vortex Viper PST is a great choice, and it would be mine...FFP is a big help for the type of accuracy you're trying to achieve
FFP it is... I will take this advice for sure.

Quote:
YMMV since you are a self-admitted expert.
Where did this come from?

Quote:
What you need my friend is a quantum plasma mega blaster with inter-core hydra coil magnification and heat seeking titanium flux core rounds... that outta do it.
You betcha... but I looked on every shelf... and those things are rare as hen's teeth! (and more than I can afford... )

Quote:
even with a scoped rifle I have never aimed at a deer's head when hunting.
Neither have I... That's the purpose of this thread... to explore the possibility. I have lost several good opportunities because I couldn't take a responsible shot..."from a field position".

Thanks everyone for your assistance. A few of you were very helpful in nailing it down for me.

NOTE: I don't believe that a rifle that shoots one ragged hole at 100 yard's can do sub-MOA at all ranges out to 1000 yards... bullet weight and design and ballistic coefficient and sectional density (as well as weather, as was mentioned) will make a big difference.

PLEASE, EVERYBODY NOTE THAT I DON'T INTEND TO TAKE LONG RANGE HEAD SHOTS... I just want a rifle that's capable of it. If the rifle can do it at 1000 yards... then I can use that rifle to take a shot behind the ear at normal hunting ranges well under 400. Or so goes my theory.

Thanks again everybody.
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Old January 9, 2012, 07:02 AM   #21
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I guess my main problem with this post is that you seem to be trying to buy accuracy. I was taught when you are consistantly shooting the same way every time and you can't wring anymore accuracy from the shooter that is when you look at improving the rifle/equipment.
Quote:
PLEASE, EVERYBODY NOTE THAT I DON'T INTEND TO TAKE LONG RANGE HEAD SHOTS... I just want a rifle that's capable of it.
That tells us you are thinking about being able to do it. The fact is what you are looking for is out there, but are you capable of performing? kraigwy gave you the best advice of all on this in post #2.

Quote:
NOTE: I don't believe that a rifle that shoots one ragged hole at 100 yard's can do sub-MOA at all ranges out to 1000 yards...
Wrong if you have a load that shoots a ragged hole at 100 yards the rifle and load will be sub-moa at all ranges. What will cause you not to be sub-moa at all ranges will be your skills behind the trigger. BC and SD don't matter at all and weather (wind) can all be compensated for to keep the load sub-moa as long as you can correctly gage them. When I said BC and SD don't matter, I mean as long as you know what they are you know how the bullet will act to external forces, so you can accurately predict the bullet trajectory.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Your Vortex Viper PST is a great choice, and it would be mine...FFP is a big help for the type of accuracy you're trying to achieve
FFP it is... I will take this advice for sure.
I'm not sure a FFP scope is the way to go here, just because someone agreed with your choice. You want a scope that will not cover up point of aim at 1000 yards correct? What about close in shots? With a FFP scope your reticle gets bigger as you turn the scopes power up.

So if you have a reticle that is 1/4 moa thick on the highest power that will not cover up a 1/2 moa target (your requirement for sub 1/2 moa rifle) at 1000 yards, I doubt you'll be able to make it out on the lower powers very well. It is hard to find an animal at close range on high power if you have to make a quick shot. You might be better of with a 1/4 moa thick cross hair in the SFP that doesn't change size when you change the power.
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Old January 9, 2012, 09:43 AM   #22
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You can easily find a rifle to do the job you want done for far less than 2K. The hard part is finding the person to shoot it well. A good used Win 70, Rem 700, or Sav 110 sporting rifle .308 or .30-06 can be found on the used market, often times with good scopes for under $500. with a shooter that knows how to dope his rifle these calibers are deadly out to 800 + meters. These lightweight sporting rifles are generally not shot out because they are really not that fun to shoot. The guys sitting at the bench all day long burning up barrels are using heavy varmint/target/sniper wannabe rifles, not shooting 7 1/2 lb rifles meant to be carried a few miles in and a few miles out and up the mountain both ways. Almost all of these rifles will shoot sub MOA with a lot of practice and some minor adjustments to the rifle and the load.
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Old January 9, 2012, 10:31 AM   #23
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Quote:
I'm not sure a FFP scope is the way to go here, just because someone agreed with your choice. You want a scope that will not cover up point of aim at 1000 yards correct? What about close in shots? With a FFP scope your reticle gets bigger as you turn the scopes power up.
There are pro's and con's to FFP scopes. I don't own one because the $$ is not justified, we shoot steel and paper at known distances.

In a hunting application, a FFP (esp. in a mil/mil configuration) can make ranging the animal easier and faster, as well as faster adjustments for follow-up shots.

FFP scopes are not for everyone.
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Old January 9, 2012, 11:16 AM   #24
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kraigwy put it best...plain & simple.
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Old January 9, 2012, 11:56 AM   #25
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Quote:
then I can use that rifle to take a shot behind the ear at normal hunting ranges well under 400. Or so goes my theory
Shooting game (especially deer) in the head at any distance greater than contact range is foolish*: It is a small, round and hard target. It is nearly constantly moving...... if you are off by as little as 2" ( or the animal moves that much, or a combination of the two!), then you have done worse than miss: you have maimed the animal and it will did a slow death by starvation or infection, because your bullet broke it's jaw, or blinded it, or damaged the muscle on the back of the neck that allows it to hold it's head up ..... none of these are immediately fatal, but are pretty much fatal, eventually.

Couple that with the fact that the skull is hard and round ..... if your bullet strikes at a shallow angle .... it may not enter, but instead glance off.....

One more thing to consider: time of flight: a 165 gr .308 WIN bullet with a MV of 2700 f/sec will take 1/3 of a second to reach it's target..... EVEN IF YOUR GUN WILL SHOOT INTO 2" AT 300 YARDS, AND YOU ARE UP TO IT, can you guarantee the animal will not move it's he that much in .3 seconds? No.

There were some pretty graphic game-cam pics on here recently of a couple of deer that had broken jaws ..... not nice.

*.... and, as I learned at the age of 15, shooting them in the head at contact range with a high-powered rifle is foolish, as well: you'll be wearing their brains.
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