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Old January 9, 2012, 10:07 PM   #101
BillCA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
Especially if it really CAN'T be done!
Oh, but it can (and has) been done. Usually out of sheer desperation.

Force Science showed it can be done and without lots of training when the person at gunpoint initiates the action decisively. Other studies involving the OODA loop indicate that our reaction times can almost double when we are talking. If the person is performing a physical action -- like reaching back to pull out handcuffs or tucking your wallet into his jacket -- reaction times are 1/3 to 1/2 second longer. The mind is focused on completing the manual task and an interruption requires the mind to "shift gears" and address the new information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryM
Unless one is hit in the brain or stem, no handgun used by most of us is sure to instantly disable or kill the BG. There have been cases of a person absorbing several shots from .357 Mag or .45 ACP and still able to shoot you. Forget the movies and TV shootings.

Unless you are very sure that you are going to get shot anyway it is foolish to try to beat the drop.
We don't need the magic one-shot-stop bullet. We simply need a momentary distraction on his part to enable us to draw and fire. Once we begin firing, multiple shots (and ideally hits) will prevent him from responding coherently.

In my experience, a person suddenly surprised by the thunder & lightning of a handgun muzzle blast, even if they are not hit, they will duck, dodge and/or flinch. That BG who suddenly sees you pull a gun and move sideways begins to respond when there is a flash and a loud boom. Hot powder and the concussion wave will force him to flinch and involuntarily squint or close his eyes. He may fire off a shot in reaction, but it's unlikely to be aimed or accurate except by blind luck.

Nate: The decoy money clip goes hand in hand with the idea of a decoy wallet. The money clip has to show cash where the wallet does not. Either one entices a pick-up which is sufficient distraction to allow us to respond.
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Old January 9, 2012, 10:11 PM   #102
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For those who say you can't fight back if the criminal has the drop on you: http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/...d-robbery.html

From tonight's news.

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Old January 10, 2012, 07:21 AM   #103
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Quote:
Maybe in fantasy land.

An already nervous criminal with a finger on the trigger has you beat.

You are not going to make any large movements before that finger can move.
True.

Distracting the BG may be an option, but a truly resolved thug with a finger on the trigger will be quicker than you drawing. Also, throwing away my wallet so he picks it up sounds... funny. If I were the thug, it would be YOU the one picking it up. Or if it's actually a really bad person, he may just shoot you for that.
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Old January 10, 2012, 07:36 AM   #104
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Quote:
Snubnose in the jacket pocket... you don't even have to draw
I want to see this in our summer months in FLA.

I am truly amazed that this thread has gone this far and no one has been poked in the eye yet. ( Thread closed ) Nice job to all who have replied
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Last edited by Don P; January 10, 2012 at 07:51 AM. Reason: Adding a thought
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Old January 10, 2012, 08:56 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
For those who say you can't fight back if the criminal has the drop on you: http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/...d-robbery.html

From tonight's news.

pax
Advising that there is innate danger when trying to “out draw” someone should not be mistaken for directing an individual to be a victim, or not defend themselves. Some of us just made the point that the act of outdrawing might not be the best first move or upshot. There is also a big difference between someone asking for keys or a cell phone, and someone telling you “I will kill you for your money and a beer and cigar.” In your link, the clerk did not have a gun already pointed at his face, and the clerk saw a knife in the assailants pocket not a gun.
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Last edited by output; January 10, 2012 at 11:54 AM.
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Old January 10, 2012, 09:40 AM   #106
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For those times when the other options might actually be worse, practicing to distract and draw are good ideas.

For bad breath distance, when other options don't look good, practicing to attack / disarm and draw are good ideas.

Developing a good draw technique is a good idea.

This doesn't mean you always have to do one of the above when threatened; it does mean that if you have trained at it, and if it seems necessary, it can work.

OTOH, not training, and trying to improvise for the first time when already in harm's way, is very likely to decrease the odds in a major way.
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Old January 10, 2012, 09:47 AM   #107
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Let me just ask a couple of questions here about how people see this scenario and their reaction.

First, at what distance are people assuming this is all happening?

And second, are people thinking their response will be aimed fire with two hands or something else?
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Old January 10, 2012, 10:11 AM   #108
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I am trying not to make any assumptions that are not in the OP:

Quote:
you're armed what would you do.
Quote:
I am a firm believer, that if someone has a gun pointed at you, and you are carrying, the advantage is in your court. I think you can draw and fire before the bandit can shoot his gun he already has out.
Quote:
After reading about the Cousin who got carjacked, or maybe another subject...
Quote:
...if you get the guy talking, you'll beat him every time....

Talking distance (3 feet? 5 feet?, 10 feet?), carjacking distance (what's the length of a car door? 3 feet?), gun pointed at you, not waving around at a room full of people.

Those are my assumptions.


So many arguments just don't seem relevant. Of course it's better to be better trained. Who said it wasn't?

Of course it's "possible" to fight and win against bad odds.

Those things are not the point of the OP.

My points are (have been) as follows:

1)Some one pointing a gun at you does not give you an advantage.

2)"What would yo do?" Nothing, unless I thought I was going to be shot anyway. No point in turning a robbery into a shootout, even if I come out unscathed, especially if I don't.

3)"It can be done" is irrelevent. SHOULD it be done. I believe that the OP implies that drawing and firing is the correct course of action... He asks what would you do and goes on to explain why he can draw and fire faster than the BG can shoot.

I believe that CHOOSING to fire on armed bad guys is almost always a bad choice. By far, most robberies end without people getting killed or severely injured. By far, most shootouts do not.

If you believe you are about to be shot (and him having a gun does not mean you're about to be shot) or they're going to execute you in the cooler, that's one thing. Starting a gun battle at "Yo, give up da cash and no buddy gets hurt!" is quite another.
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Old January 10, 2012, 12:19 PM   #109
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All the example in the world do not change the fact you are in a BAD spot if someone 'has the drop' on you.

Can a really fast person beat them? Maybe.

Finding out is a lot more dangerous than shooting balloons and inanimate targets really fast.

Luckily most of the hood rats are lousy shots and often barely know how to operate their gun.

The problem is it only takes one and you end up with a nice hole in your hide.

It may not kill you, but then you also thought you could outdraw the rat, that's how you ended up with the hole.

how many chances do you want to take?

If you are really sure you will be shot anyway (taken mind reading classes?) additional 'chances' would probably be in order.


Training and even having 'practiced' distraction are good.

Being able to stay calm is probably the most important thing.

After some time as a paramedic I can stay calm with damn near anything in front of me. It scares my wife sometimes.

We stopped once at a fresh accident with a decapitated driver.
I took note, realized there was nothing anyone could do, and calmly told the state cop that showed up about 5 minutes later what had happened (I saw the entire under-run accident occur).

He thanked me, went to look at the victim, returned and proceeded to toss his cookies.
He was pretty young, and rather embarrassed.

I handed him a paper towel to clean up.





There is already one nervous idiot pointing a gun at someone.
Adding a second one is not a good recipe.
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Old January 11, 2012, 02:43 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordeste
Distracting the BG may be an option, but a truly resolved thug with a finger on the trigger will be quicker than you drawing. Also, throwing away my wallet so he picks it up sounds... funny. If I were the thug, it would be YOU the one picking it up. Or if it's actually a really bad person, he may just shoot you for that.
I carry a decoy wallet. Some time ago I moved to a money clip and a small business-card wallet for credit cards. The old wallet contains some very outdated cards -- none with my address on them -- for ID purposes and I usually keep about 5 one's in it along with an expired Visa Gift card that looks like a Visa card. If I pull it out of my left (weak) side rear pocket I may toss it at his feet or at his outstretched hand. There are reasons for all of this and all of them can possibly give me an advantage. It won't take acting lessons for me to appear nervous and scared when I "accidentally" drop the wallet near him or his hand and that's what he wants - fear as a compliance tool.

To address the question of how you'd actually fire... It's likely going to be very close range - 10 ft or less - so one-handed point shooting is going to be the initial mode. And since you may be forced to move laterally, including over and behind other objects, keeping one hand free for balancing will be more important that acquiring a 2 hand hold on the gun.
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Old January 11, 2012, 10:37 AM   #111
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My "decoy wallet", if you want to call it that, is a Recluse holster with a BG380. I've done some practicing to be able to pull the gun without appearing to be doing anything unusual. I'm not quite there yet.

The situation will determine which back pocket I reach for.

Kraigwy, your tests have all started with your hand in your front pocket where you carry the 642, since that's a common stance for you. What do you think about the rest of us who don't walk around that way? Would that change your opinion of the outcome? How fast can you draw starting with your hand outside the pocket?
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Old January 11, 2012, 11:18 AM   #112
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So the bandit has the drop on you, so what

Hello friends interesting read! their are many opinions but all in all the conversation is a good one, But I have seen it in class when the bandit has the drop on you, ke/she will lose focus on you if not for a second. But the real world has many options to the outcome, being prepared for what hapens in any given situation is the key, luck has very little to do with anything. Be safe.
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Old January 11, 2012, 11:57 AM   #113
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Quote:
Kraigwy, your tests have all started with your hand in your front pocket where you carry the 642, since that's a common stance for you. What do you think about the rest of us who don't walk around that way? Would that change your opinion of the outcome? How fast can you draw starting with your hand outside the pocket?
NO

Back in the 70s when we first started practicing this I was in LE, I used a Hoyt breakfront. It worked then, but I haven't played with it much since retiring. I do use the Hoyt now in ICORE, its still the fastest "belt" holster I've ever used.

What I liked about the Hoyt, besides being fast, it was secure, since cops spend more time wrestling bandits then shooting them, that's a necessary in a duty holster.

It's hard to come up with accurate numbers (times) when we are talking about "action" as opposed to "reaction". I use a shot timer, the problem is, you're still re'acting to the beep of the timer and not "acting".

Action is faster then Reaction, I just don't know how to measure it.
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Old January 11, 2012, 12:04 PM   #114
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Good stuff--thanks guys.
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Old January 11, 2012, 12:22 PM   #115
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Quote:
Action is faster then Reaction, I just don't know how to measure it.
An easy way to show this, is to get a buddy, and standing close together, face to face, have them hold their hand up to the side of their face at their temple. You hold your hand up to your face on the same side, and then tell them your going to 'touch" their ear and they should use their hand there guarding it to block you. 99.9% of the time, they cant, and thats even with them knowing its coming.

Now, to put it more into perspective, put your hand in your pocket and do it, and see if you get the same result.
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Old January 11, 2012, 11:01 PM   #116
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When pocket carrying, your draw "starts" once your hand closes around the grip. Remember, if the BG is demanding your money or wallet, he's expecting you to reach into a pocket to retrieve it. Executed smoothly he'll never have enough time to react before the first one or two bullets are incoming.

In addition, whilst reaching into your pocket, you can be using your weak hand, palm out, waving and saying "alright, alright, no problem" to distract him from closely observing what your strong hand is doing. He has to watch to be sure you won't try to reach for his gun or slap it away and he can't look at two things at once.

Watch this classic misdirection (even though it's Hollywood).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtZLei_8EZ8
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Old January 11, 2012, 11:14 PM   #117
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Hey, Bill, . . . thanks, my friend. I was thinking about that video the other day, . . . saw your post, . . . thought I'd see if you used it, . . . you did.

It is absolutely one of my favorite you tubes, . . . made my day.

May God bless,
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Old January 12, 2012, 07:17 AM   #118
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Cool video--but ridiculous, IMO. A "reasoning" perp? sure.
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Old January 12, 2012, 12:47 PM   #119
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Oh, hey, as long as we're talking Hollywood: http://www.thegunzone.com/software/zubiena.html

It's worth reading & definitely worth watching the embedded video clip. Be sure to catch Zubiena's response, too: http://www.thegunzone.com/software/zubiena2.html

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Old January 14, 2012, 12:30 AM   #120
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Quote:
Post #64 (link) is the most intelligent post in this informative thread. IMO, of course, and YMMV. Thanks for posting it.
I would give that honor to Post #58 in my IMHO.

Even though it goes against every fiber of my being, you are usually better off doing as you are told when looking down the barrel of a gun. However, there are times that you have to trust you instincts and fight back even if the odds aren't good. This is the case whether you are armed or not.

We are assuming you are already in this terrible situation. But, of course the most important thing to remember is, don't let it get that far before you do something to change the situation.
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Old January 15, 2012, 01:55 PM   #121
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If I’m the BG I will be watching your hands telling you what I want !! If you don’t shut up and listen OR make a fast move with those hands I’m watching I’ll send a couple down range to see if that helps you comply…. On the other hand if I was the good guy I would have to draw .. Practice will help but you won’t know the outcome till it happens . My Opinion..
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Old January 17, 2012, 07:48 PM   #122
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This link is posted in another thread but it is an example of a succesfull DGU even when the bandit had "the drop" on the intended victim.

http://www.dailypress.com/news/crime...,7992127.story
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Old January 17, 2012, 08:27 PM   #123
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I saw that link and was gonna re-post it here but figured I PO'ed off enough people already on this topic.
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Old January 18, 2012, 11:42 AM   #124
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Here is a neat study showing how fast reaction can actually be...
http://prism.bham.ac.uk/pdf_files/We..._PRSB_2010.pdf

Turns out, initiated action can be slower than reaction.

Quote:
Action is faster then Reaction, I just don't know how to measure it.
Once again, context is critical. Are you talking about actual action and reaction or successful completion of action and reaction where the tasks being performed by not be comparable? Action may be faster than reaction by definition, but not necessarily by application in regard to completion or success of tasks. If the time it takes for the action to start and run to completion is longer than the time of the reaction from start to completion, then the action can be beat by the reaction. The time to complete the action may be much longer than the reaction because the action may involve more tasks, tasks of longer duration, or tasks covering a greater distance.

Quote:
Watch this classic misdirection ...
Right, to add greater time to the completion of the reactive task that otherwise might be shorter than the active task, things like misdirection can be used. The bad guy with the drawn gun isn't apt to make the decision to pull the trigger if he doesn't realize an action has been started against him.
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