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Old January 8, 2012, 04:20 PM   #76
nate45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KraigWy
You train so you can react without thinking. When you reach that point it's muscle memory, whether you muscle's remember anything or not.
What you wrote in that post is true Kraig, but the article I linked to is about bad things that happen when people react without thinking.
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Old January 8, 2012, 04:32 PM   #77
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Wyatt Earp said, "The even break is a thing for dime novelists and dead fools." His point being is the man who is on his gun first usually wins. The drop has been beaten, and no doubt will be again, but even if you're Bob Munden fast it's going to be touch-and-go who gets killed. If you try it (not to say that I wouldn't) you better be prepared for that eventuality.
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Old January 8, 2012, 04:43 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nate45
Quote:
Originally Posted by KraigWy
You train so you can react without thinking. When you reach that point it's muscle memory, whether you muscle's remember anything or not.
What you wrote in that post is true Kraig, but the article I linked to is about bad things that happen when people react without thinking.
Nate, I think you've misunderstood. If I may.

I believe what Kraig was talking about is training to the point that you can perform the necessary physical actions reflexively, i. e., without having to think about how to do them. This is usually called "unconscious competence."

So if you need to use your gun, your conscious mind focuses on deciding what to do and how to do it -- not how to make your gun work.
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Old January 8, 2012, 05:55 PM   #79
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All of you are making excellent posts, mostly, and new points of view are being revealed. Ultimately, this thread is about one kind of reaction to one kind of threat. Now, some people can think faster than other people; thinking on your feet, you might say. Others simply will not react at all. Or rather, not react in such a way as to do them (or anyone) any good. How on earth you overcome this problem I don't know. Training, perhaps, if there is a kind of training that will incorporate real danger.

And another thing: I am starting to believe that not all trainers even believe the same thing, although that may not be important, provided the results are the same. This has apparently always been true, too, at least as far back as whenever someone actually wrote about what they were doing. But, just the same, there isn't a great deal written about this particular scenario, I don't think. And such stuff as I have found is more in the nature of trick shooting that only a highly practiced and gifted individual could "pull off." And that's not me.
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Old January 8, 2012, 06:10 PM   #80
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Thinking about building a suppressor.
I've seen one for large rifle shooting. Kinda looked like a giant stainless doughnut. But it was supposed to really put the kabosh on all that noise. If I had my own range, I'd certainly want one also.
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Old January 8, 2012, 06:33 PM   #81
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Quote:
there isn't a great deal written about this particular senario
Maybe not, I've been out of the game for a while, retiring in 1994 but in the 70s there was a big push among police departments for this type of training after Joseph Wambaugh's The Onion Field came out. It is based on an actual 1963 case.

I don't know if anyone read the book, but it amounts to two officers held at gun point and forced to give up their guns. They were taken to a field (the Onion Field) where one officer was killed the other escaped.

About that time, there was a big push about NEVER GIVING UP YOUR GUN, based on this we started training and discovered, just because some one has the drop on you, doesn't mean you are at an disadvantage.

After retiring, I kept up the practice and still teach it.
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Old January 8, 2012, 07:23 PM   #82
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Some folks here are arguing in a vacuum. As pointed out, when these things happen there is sometimes shouting and lots of motion going on. The thug demanding valuables and the victim pleading for his life or assuring the thug he'll comply. These events are rarely static.

It behooves us all to practice some form of hand-to-hand tactics for those times when it's much easier to attack the thug's gun hand than outdraw the gun. Indeed, it may actually be better to step closer or "into" the thug's space and attack his gun hand (and body) than try to draw your own gun.

Action can often beat reaction simply because the reacting party has to "catch up" to events. If he is primed and ready with only a single decision to make (pull trigger) he might prevail, but only because the initiating party failed to make it harder for him. Making it harder isn't difficult. At "bad breath" distance slapping the gun hand away or taking an extended finger shot at the eyes requires the thug to process that action. If you're moving off his line of fire at the same time, it requires more processing for him to decide how to correct for it.

If you can draw in 1.5 seconds and act while the thug is talking to slap his gun hand away hard and then moving to the side, what happens? Let's presume he has good reaction time. That's 0.5 seconds to realize his gun has been slapped away. Another 0.25 seconds for him to stop the motion of his arm and just start it coming back on target. But you're moving too, so now another 0.25 to 0.5 seconds to observe and 0.25 seconds to "predict" where he needs to shoot. He still needs 0.25 to 0.75 seconds to bring his gun on target. But you began your draw the moment your hand made contact with his. You have already decided the action sequence you'll perform -- slap, move, draw, fire -- and have few distractions from him while he's reacting.

ME? I'm going to comply with his demands until such time as I can either see he's distracted, create a distraction for him to process or I know that he's going to shoot me anyhow. I may be too late, but I'll do my best to take him with me.
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Old January 8, 2012, 11:25 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown
Nate, I think you've misunderstood. If I may.

I believe what Kraig was talking about is training to the point that you can perform the necessary physical actions reflexively, i. e., without having to think about how to do them. This is usually called "unconscious competence."

So if you need to use your gun, your conscious mind focuses on deciding what to do and how to do it -- not how to make your gun work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KraigWy
The Myth of the The Myth of Muscle Memory

The ideal that there is no such thing of "muscle memory" is a myth within itself.

Unless you want to banter words. As to muscle's remembering anything, maybe, but the term "muscle memory" does not mean muscles remembering anything.

Muscle memory is the ability to act subsciencely without realizing it, and that isn't a myth.

A good example: Lets say you shoot competition, lots of competition with a rifle. You shoot with both eyes open. You've done that for years, thousands of rounds. So today you go hunting and shoot a critter, then someone asked you if you shot the critter with both eyes open. You don't know, but chances are you did have both eyes open.............that's muscle memory as it relates to shooting and shooting sports.

You train so you can react without thinking. When you reach that point it's muscle memory, whether you muscle's remember anything or not.

It's semitics. A clip is a clip unless you are clipping hair.


No, I understood what he was saying, I just didn't think he had read the article I linked to. The Myth of Muscle Memory I didn't title it, the author did. It isn't about semantics, or not practicing drawing ones handgun, training, etc. Its about thinking under stress and thinking about each different and separate scenario you might be in. Notwithstanding, the drills and draw practice one might have done. Its also about how some individuals had ingrained bad habits into their 'muscle memory', thats what 'muscle memory' is after all, a habit.

Quote:
The trick to not “over-training” your muscle memory: restrict your subconscious programming to the fundamentals. Of course you need to be able to unconsciously draw your weapon. Same goes for aiming and firing (hence my newfound fascination with point shooting). But what you do with these skills—gunfighting—should not be an unconscious process. You need to think. The Myth of Muscle Memory
All thats not to say that I believe anyone here is advocating not thinking. However, rote drawing and firing practice only goes so far. There are so many variables and possible nuances to each possible scenario, that they will only be able to be evaluated at the time they are occurring. Not drawing and firing could well be the best solution, depending on the circumstance.
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Old January 9, 2012, 09:09 AM   #84
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Over training? That's a good one. I generally gather from reading in this forum that no one is adequately trained, much less over trained. Or at least that's the opinion of some people. Me? I don't know.

The think is, as I think I alread said, that this is only a single self defense senario, although for a civilian, it may the most important one if you live in town. If you live in wild Alaska, maybe not so important. If most of your outdoor time is spent in a car on a crowded highway, again not so important.

But assuming then that this close-in defensive situation is what you are most likely to have happen to you, more so than any other, then equip and train yourself for that moment and forget all that target shooting at 25 yards with your K-38. Because it won't help.

At this point I might bring up yet another diversion of opinions on self defense with a handgun as a subject for thought and discussion. There seems to have been two schools of thought on the matter of using a handgun for self defense. I already brought up the subject once but it seems worth mentioning again.

One line of thinking believes that you ought to be a proficient formal target shooter before you progress to an advanced topic like fast draw. Not surprisingly, most proponents of that belief were sucessful competitive target shooters and also mostly policemen. Bill Jordan was one such person, Elmer Keith (never a policeman) was another.

The other line of thinking is just the opposite and is, in a way, based partly on the assumption that you will not be able to become a proficient target shot, chiefly because there isn't enough time. But it is also based on the assumption that it detracts from actual combat shooting proficiency. That assumption was based on their own experiences and studies of old time gunfighter's techniques. These two distinctly separate approaches to gunfighting are older than I am, by the way.

I also observe that these two different ways of thinking have produced different kinds of guns for personal self defense. At one time the classic S&W K-38 was a common police weapon. It is easy to see which line of thinking those users followed. Likewise, there is the complete opposite with the Seecamp pistols, which don't even have sights. Seecamp's theory of self defense apparently didn't think a lot about shooting people (don't forget, that's what we're talking about) at 25 yards or even 15 yards. But I already see that one or two people in this thread are followers of the up close theory of serious shooting and have equipped themselves appropriately.

I'm still working on a few details in this regard myself.
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Old January 9, 2012, 01:00 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nate45
...The Myth of Muscle Memory I didn't title it, the author did. It isn't about semantics, or not practicing drawing ones handgun, training, etc. Its about thinking under stress and thinking about each different and separate scenario you might be in. Notwithstanding, the drills and draw practice one might have done. Its also about how some individuals had ingrained bad habits into their 'muscle memory', thats what 'muscle memory' is after all, a habit...
Having just read the article again, the title is really very misleading. It's not about whether or not one can or should learn to do certain things reflexively. It's about the dangers of learning to do the wrong things reflexively. It's sort of like the way I keep saying that if you keep practicing the wrong things you'll just become an expert at doing things wrong.

So if a training protocol requires the student to pick up the brass after every shot string, we have come to understand that teaches a dangerously counterproductive habit. It's not about overtraining. It's about training the wrong things.
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Old January 9, 2012, 03:10 PM   #86
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I hope it is OK to re-state this.
Unless one is hit in the brain or stem, no handgun used by most of us is sure to instantly disable or kill the BG. There have been cases of a person absorbing several shots from .357 Mag or .45 ACP and still able to shoot you. Forget the movies and TV shootings.

Unless you are very sure that you are going to get shot anyway it is foolish to try to beat the drop. I believe that those who, at the range, can draw from under a cover garment in less than normal reaction time could not do it when the situation would arise in the real world. Even Bill Jordan did not draw from cover when he did beat the drop. And I doubt there are any Bill Jordans here.

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Old January 9, 2012, 03:44 PM   #87
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BenTote: Wyatt Earp said, "The even break is a thing for dime novelists and dead fools." His point being is the man who is on his gun first usually wins. The drop has been beaten, and no doubt will be again, but even if you're Bob Munden fast it's going to be touch-and-go who gets killed. If you try it (not to say that I wouldn't) you better be prepared for that eventuality.
I found it interesting too regarding about Wyat Earp. Once some guy had the drop on him and he hollered out, looking beyond the guy, hey Don't shoot him with that shot gun, hes just drunk and when the guy turned to look he drew and shot him. What gets me is how fast Mat Dillon on Gunsmoke can draw that 45 of his. Mine sure can't get out that fast.
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Old January 9, 2012, 03:56 PM   #88
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If you watch, the other guys fires before Dillon. But he misses. Oops.
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Old January 9, 2012, 04:01 PM   #89
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Unless one is hit in the brain or stem, no handgun used by most of us is sure to instantly disable or kill the BG.
Captain's Fairbirn & Sykes wrote about this in their book "Shooting To Live"

The were involved in one way or other over 600 shooting. Several times bandits were hit several times with a 45 and had to be pistol whipped to be subdued.

However they did report that shots in the lower stomach were a different matter, they may not kill or knock the bandit down, but it almost always caused them to drop their gun and grab their stomachs.

Never have I said, "only shoot once". You do what you have to, with however many rounds it takes to eliminate the threat. That don't mean you have to kill them.

And forget the re-action times are only for young'ins. All it takes is practice, lots of practice............practice gives even an old man (I'm 64) the ability to get his revolver out of his pocket and on target.

I just came in from playing in the back yard with a shot timer and my 642.

From the pocket: 7 yards, all shots kept in the A zone or a tad out side (remember I start with my hands in my pocket on the revolver. Nothing in the pocket to interfer with the revolver.

Round 1: .51 sec
Round 2: .78 sec
Round 3: 1.05 sec
Round 4: 1.35 sec
Round 5: 1.58 sec

Not bad reaction time for an old man.

It's all about practice, I'll not give up if all it takes to survive is a bit of training and lots of practice.
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Old January 9, 2012, 04:22 PM   #90
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Since this is all hypothetical and none of us know exactly how one of these situations might transpire. I'll offer up the idea of a distraction.

I believe it was Massad Ayoob in one of his Guns and Ammo, American Hand Gunner, etc articles, who put forth the following idea. It applies to an on the street robbery situation, stick up or whatever one wants to call it.

The idea is to have a money clip with a twenty on top and some ones IIRC. You produce it from your pocket and throw it on the ground close to the BG's feet.

If he/she picks it up and runs off all the better I say. I'd rather lose a little money than shoot someone. However, something along those lines might provide the half second or so distraction one needed to produce and fire their weapon.
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Old January 9, 2012, 04:33 PM   #91
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I recall that comment from "Shooting to live." I can believe it, too. I can even believe one can be knocked down before you realize it. But let's not go off in the direction just yet.

Although I have read that you shouldn't mention what you read, at least in the presence of someone who's trying to teach you something, I do try to read as much on the subject as time will allow. And just like Fairbairn said in his book, the more he learned (though he was talking about stopping power), the less certain he was about anything. Fortunately, he was mostly writing from a military and police perspective, not so much from a civilian self-defense point of view but he does talk about it. He even praised at least one fellow for developing some of his own ideas.

A lot of magazine articles are full of negative comments about other people's ideas and sometimes that shows up here, too. But I suppose a little criticism now and then will make you think--hopefully. But even writing that doesn't use up most of the space attacking some one else's system is still so different that one can't help but decide to start from scratch and develop one's own system. Even very large organizations that use firearms end up doing things differently, presumably for good reasons. Same with individuals if left to their own devices. Naturally this is assuming a lot about the intelligence, resourcefulness and cleverness of private citizens but that's America for you.

While I've made critical comments about pocket carry in other threads with regards to a fast draw, those are certainly respectable times there. You probably are aware that Keith included in his "Sixguns" photos of an old-timer who had the same habit of always carrying a pistol in his left front pants pocket, in his case, a Remington double derringer.
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Old January 9, 2012, 05:06 PM   #92
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Has anyone tried it yet?

This is post 92 and I am still waiting for someone to try it.
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Old January 9, 2012, 05:14 PM   #93
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Quote:
This is post 92 and I am still waiting for someone to try it.
It's easier to say something can't be done then it is to go do it.
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Old January 9, 2012, 06:16 PM   #94
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Folks, some of you are missing the point. It is NOT about waving some magic wand to escape injury. It is not about having on magic bullet repellent.

It is the mindset that will allow you to FIGHT BACK; to SURVIVE at any cost. It is not the newest training method, nor is it some neat-o stance that will make you look ultra cool.

It is about using your handgun to live; to survive; so walk away from a deadly encounter.

As a side note, perhaps the most functional concealed handgun in existence is the Smith and Wesson 640 series.

Quote:
This is post 92 and I am still waiting for someone to try it.
Drawing against an armed man works. Not all the time, but it WORKS. If it is all that you have left, or the only thing you can do in that circumstance, yes--it can work.

Take that as you will, those who want to--but it does and can work.
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Old January 9, 2012, 06:57 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by kraigwy View Post
It's easier to say something can't be done then it is to go do it.
Especially if it really CAN'T be done!
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Old January 9, 2012, 07:56 PM   #96
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Powderman ~

Post #64 (link) is the most intelligent post in this informative thread. IMO, of course, and YMMV. Thanks for posting it.

One of the things I did in my early training was to make a list of circumstances under which I would fight back even if I didn't think I could win.

The thing that drove me to make that list was a scenario-based class at the Firearms Academy of Seattle. In that class, there was one scenario that forced students to make that choice: surrender, get on your knees, turn your back on the bad guys -- or fight back at horrible odds. My own decision point came when the "bad guy" ordered me to walk with him to a back room. Uh uh. No way, no how.

I ain't goin' out like that.

I think sometimes the whole "but you can't do that!" brigade misses an important point.

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Old January 9, 2012, 08:48 PM   #97
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I think sometimes the whole "but you can't do that!" brigade misses an important point.
THIS is the entire point that I was trying to make. Thanks!

The point, folks is this...there may come a time when the remainder of your life can be measured in seconds. In fractions of a second. You have to decide now--how will you deal with it?

When I was younger, I was a frequent victim of violent crime. If you lived in the City of Chicago, you learned that armed robberies and muggings were a common occurrence. I learned a number of lessons:

1. Criminals are COWARDS. They want an easy, compliant victim.
2. Criminals COUNT on you being cowed into submission.
3. Criminals count on it so much that if you do use an affirmative, dynamic resistance, THEY will more than likely be frozen for the split second that it takes for you to press home your response.

It comes down to a decision; a choice that YOU have to make. You are there. There is a good chance that you will NOT be leaving that spot alive. However, all is not lost--you have a concealed pistol, it is loaded, and you are good with it. You can at least make a stand.

But--if you draw, there is an excellent chance that you will be shot. You don't want to feel the impact of a bullet.

And yet, the time approaches. Now, he's telling you to turn around; to go to your knees.

Dear God. Will I die here, today; right now?

You have the choice.

Go like a lamb to the slaughter.

Or take the fight to the potential killer.

I remember a video I saw. A lion, crouching, ready to attack. His target--three men with heavy rifles, ready to kill him. The lion charges!

Bullets throw dirt into the air, and he big cat feels the smashing, brutal impact of heavy caliber rifle fire at close range. Yet, the lion does not turn away. It does not falter. With its dying breath, it leaps!

One hunter is knocked away by the impact of a huge paw. More firing, more hard impacts.

The great cat is dead.

Yet, one of its killers will carry the lion's mark until his dying day; a reminder of a magnificent animal who refused to go quietly into that good night.

I am here to tell you all--once again--that the quick reaction works. Acting against the armed criminal can work well. But--there can be no second thought, no hesitation. Once you move, you commit. You MUST finish your attack, at ALL costs.

I know this from personal experience.

Do not go quietly.
Do not roll over meekly and show your belly.
FIGHT.
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Old January 9, 2012, 09:00 PM   #98
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I hope no one here has to find out for real on this. The "hey guys it works" is little consolation for the flipside of "he tried it and is dead".
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Old January 9, 2012, 09:29 PM   #99
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What about the guys who carry without one in the chamber
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Old January 9, 2012, 09:38 PM   #100
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So far as I can tell, "I'm about to die no matter what..." is not even related to the point of the OP.

I don't think anyone doubts that there may come a time where it's fight and die or don't fight and die anyway.

I see no mention of that scenario in the OP.

It's a question of can we draw faster than someone can pull a trigger and if "the advantage is in your court" when your gun is holstered or in your pocket but the BG is pointing his gun at you.

MAYBE you can get a shot off, or two, or five. That hardly means YOU have the advantage when the BG has you covered.

If it's an "advantage", it would be something you TRIED to bring about.

Don't we WANT the advantage?

I'm not arguing about any of the possibilities. Someone pointing a gun at you DOES NOT give you an advantage.
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