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Old January 7, 2012, 11:02 AM   #51
zxcvbob
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I can't believe it took 27 posts for someone to mention this. We don't shoot death-rays.
If someone has a gun pointed at me I'm probably not going to draw.
The bad guy doesn't have a death-ray either. If he does shoot you, attack with all you've got. Consider yourself invincible for 10 seconds. You might lose, but make sure he loses worse.
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Old January 7, 2012, 11:05 AM   #52
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We've reached 50 post, no one has mentioned "trying it" as I suggested.
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Old January 7, 2012, 11:15 AM   #53
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DNS,

The Tueller drill is a different thing, because the runner (with the simulated knife) is the one who is acting and the shooter the one who is reacting to the other person's movement.

The person who reacts is usually the person who loses, because action takes less time than reaction.

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Old January 7, 2012, 11:17 AM   #54
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Plenty of us have tried it with airsoft guns actually shooting each other, which is IMHO, a much better "test" of the actual scenario than trying to shoot downrange at paper targets. Two people facing each other, one drawn and aimed, one not, is the situation you're trying to prove. Why have them shooting downrange, at paper?

Distractions and the like are one thing. Someone pointing a gun at you and paying attention to you is quite another. I've done it, I've watched others do it, I've never seen the defender NOT get shot. Not one single time. Ever.

I'm sure it can happen. Anything can happen. But I'm waiting for a really good reason and as solid of a distraction as I can get.

It takes me 1.5 seconds to draw and shoot from a concealed condition. He has to REact to my ACT. How that differs from slapping a button when a light comes on, which seems to me just like pulling a trigger when someone moves fast, is beyond me.

Even if it were different, normal reactions are 1/4 second or less, what's going to happen that adds a full 1.25 seconds to his time? Even if he does take 1.5 seconds, what happens? We shoot each other at the same time. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

If we wanna talk distractions, effective methods for concealing a draw, that's one thing. Having the advantage in your court when your gun is holstered and his is not, is quite another.
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Old January 7, 2012, 12:36 PM   #55
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We've reached 50 post, no one has mentioned "trying it" as I suggested.
I used to get to try it.

The POs in training lost every time.

The PO running the firearm training used to enjoy doing the demo after a few days of martial arts type training had occurred.

Some really believed they could beat a trigger finger on a gun already aimed at them.

Good thing it was wax and they hard riot gear on (and yes, i used to get shot to prove it was safe).
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Old January 7, 2012, 12:41 PM   #56
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I said I wasn’t going to comment unless responding to someone who actually tried “drawing while covered” but we’ve seen to have lost track of what I’m saying.

We’ve all seen “gun fights” on TV, where Mat Dillon steps out in the street, stands there all quite and calm until the bandit draws then Marshal Dillon out draws him.

We all know, or should know, that isn’t the way it happens. When someone pulls a gun in a robbery or such, there is a lot of screaming and jumping around. One screaming, “Give me your wallet, don’t move” etc etc. The Victim is yelling “don’t shoot, don’t shoot” or whatever, you get the ideal.

The bandit expects the victim to comply, the victim expects the bandit to shoot. Either way, both are waiting for something to happen. No one is expecting the victim to draw.

Think about your time on the range. How many times have you shot while talking? I don’t mean start a sentence, stop a second to shoot, and then finish the shooting. I’m talking about talking and shooting.

If you’re talking, you’re not shooting, if your shooting, you’re not talking. Same with breathing, you always stop breathing while pulling the trigger, it’s a natural act. Something you don’t really have to train yourself to do.

You need to get the bandit to talk, (easy to do). The way I demonstrate this is to have the student point at the target, I tell him as soon as he sees me start to draw to fire. Then I ask him tell me what he’s going to do to make sure he understands what is going to happen. He starts to reply and I shoot, simple, works ever time even though he knows I have a gun and I’m going to draw and shoot. I get him every time.

Now as to air soft and paint ball guns ‘n such. I don’t use them simply because I never seen one that matches my 642 and will fit in my pocket. They just don’t match my method of carry.

As to, “drawing from concealed. Yap, I agree it’s slow. Concealed is concealed, for most it requires pulling up your shirt or jacket to get to the gun. Then you have to get the gun out without snagging.

Again, that’s not how I carry. I pocket carry. I’ve always been sloppy, walking around with my hands in my pocket. Even when I was in the army I was always in trouble for my “air force gloves”.

Don’t know if anyone remembers but a while back I posted a picture of a sniper school I was teaching. In the picture I was in uniform, standing behind a spotting scope with my hands in my pocket. There were several comments about not being a professional infantry officer, setting a bad example and such.

I always have, bad habit or not, I still do it, and that’s the pocket I carry my 642. I tried it last week when thinking about another topic. Using a shot timer it took me .43 seconds to get the shot off. Yeah I use one hand; if you’ve read many of my post you’ll know I’m a proponent of one hand pistol/revolver use.

If the bandit is talking it’s going to take him a lot longer the .43 seconds to realize I’m drawing, then to stop talking and fire.

Below is a picture of me with my granddaughter taken a couple years ago, notice my hand in my pocket, guess where my 642 is.

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Old January 7, 2012, 02:04 PM   #57
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Kraig,

The situation you'd described is different than having a BG in bad breath range pointing the gun at the GG where the GG is carrying. In this kind of situation it is enormously more viable to attempt a disarm (IF one is trained) than to attempt a draw from a concealed carrying position (regardless if one is trained).

The scenario you'd described has the BG waving his gun around making demands from a further distance. Under this situation, it would be easier to seek cover and draw or possibly even just draw (maybe). In either case, one has to use their heads for a moment.

I guess distance is the primary variable.
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Old January 7, 2012, 02:20 PM   #58
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But I point out again, as I did in post 26, that it's not just a matter of "who shoots first", unless you're pocket carrying a phaser.

What if I can fire a shot in .43 seconds and it takes the BG 3/4 second? or 1 second.

It's not a "Ha, ha, cool man, you got me, I give." scenario. There's still a very, very high probability of your getting shot.

Plus, it's indisputable that MOST armed robberies end without people getting killed. If you choose to draw and shoot without some reasonable evidence that it's the best choice, you are turning this into an almost guaranteed shoot-out. Kind of like this scenario

Maybe, MAYBE, you get lucky and get off an instantly incapacitating shot. More likely, you don't. That means he's shooting back, that means you are likely to get shot when you otherwise wouldn't have been.

"Everybody in the cooler and get on your knees!" is one thing.

"Yo! Give me da money an nobody gets hurt!" is quite another.
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Old January 7, 2012, 02:24 PM   #59
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The situation you'd described is different than having a BG in bad breath range pointing the gun at the GG where the GG is carrying.
That Sir, is true. We've trained extensively on disarming a bandit at arm's lenght, but that's a different topic.

Not sure if I'm a good enogh with the written word to describe those tactics, maybe I'll find a nerdy kid to show me how to make videos and I can address the topic of "bad breath distance".
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Old January 7, 2012, 02:27 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by kraigwy
a nerdy kid
I find this offensive.
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Old January 7, 2012, 02:30 PM   #61
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IN close quarters, if you have the ability to block his gun with your week hand and draw with your strong hand at the same time and know that you can do this maneuver, then that is an option if the creep is that close. If you don't have the type of close quarters combat experience, then consider another option such as finding cover and drawing and returning fire.

I pocket carry like Kragwy, so it is always available and the creep could believe I am reaching for my wallet. That is what I would tell him.
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Old January 7, 2012, 07:01 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
We've reached 50 post, no one has mentioned "trying it" as I suggested.
I'd love to try it, but all public ranges I know of have the lanes separated to keep brass under control. You can't see the person next to you.

Any other suggestions?
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Old January 7, 2012, 09:02 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by KraigWy
We’ve all seen “gun fights” on TV, where Mat Dillon steps out in the street, stands there all quite and calm until the bandit draws then Marshal Dillon out draws him
Your making some good points Kraig, don't mean to veer your thread off course and the following is not exactly what you are speaking of. Others though have mentioned speed and reaction times though.

Arvo Ojala was the man who faced James Arness down in the opening of Gunsmoke every week.

Ojala was "the genuine article" to those he tutored. His speed was clocked and verified a number of times. He could draw, fire, and hit the target! in one-sixth of a second, faster than the eye can blink.

For further proof, Arvo would drop a silver dollar with his gun hand (right) from belt height, then draw and hit the coin before it could fall four inches. This was using "live", or full-power ammunition, not the wax bullets and quarter-loads used today in so-called "fast draw" competitions. In another exhibition, his opponent (using blanks) would face him with his pistol out of the holster and cocked, then nod as he simultaneously fired his revolver, while Arvo would draw and fire before the opponent could get a shot off. He never lost.

When I was a younger man I could do the Bill Jordan trick of having someone hold their hands a foot apart at waist level and when they got ready clap them together. When they did, their hands would have my Colt Trooper Mk III between them.

All this goes to prove that the average reaction time of .5 seconds is slower than the average self initiation time of .25 seconds.

I believe its possible to draw a concealed handgun and fire before someone holding a gun in their hand fires. I've practiced a, for lack of a better term, magazine dump, drill for many, many years. Its purpose is for just such a scenario.


The above is the product of one of those practice drills. Eight shots in 2.08 seconds, with a .53 reaction time and .22 average split. Thats not really that remarkable, till you consider the fact that it was with 230 grain +P ammo and all eight shots hit the torso A-zone of an ISPC target five yards away.

Firing seven or eight shots into the torso still doesn't guarantee a CNS(spinal column) hit, but it increases the odds.

Now the BIG question is would all that, still prevent someone from firing back and hitting me? ...and the answer is who knows. There is no way to predict the outcome. The only thing I know for certain is if I get hurt, I might not be the only one.

I still don't like the odds and hope I don't get in that situation.
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Old January 8, 2012, 05:10 AM   #64
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It just can’t be done.
Trust me, it can.

However, I think that there is a point to be made here that is being missed.

If you find yourself in the position where someone has the drop on you, and is threatening you with a drawn firearm, you are already in mortal danger. The person has means, motive and opportunity. Here is where the will to live; to win comes out. Here is the home and birthplace of what is called the warrior mindset.

So, what do you do? Just give your money up, and hope for the best? You've seen the robber's face. Will they let you walk away, and hope not to get caught?

They are issuing commands. Do you follow them meekly? Do you turn around? Go to your knees? Wait for the execution that may be coming?

This is what you MUST remember...

1. If you carry a gun, you must PRACTICE. This means that you put on and adjust your carry rig, wherever you're going to carry it. Then, you clear your weapon, REMOVE ALL LIVE AMMO FROM THE ROOM and practice the draw. Concentrate on SMOOTH, not speed. Speed will come with time.

Practice at LEAST 300 repetitions each day. It takes about 3000 reps to have the act grooved into your muscle memory.

2. Incorporate into your range time some draw and shoot practice. Here's how to do it safely...

a. Unload and load with snap caps.
b. Put up a target between 3 and 10 yards.
c. Practice that smooth, easy draw again. This time, practice drawing, coming immediately onto target and pulling the trigger. Dry-fire like this at least 100 times. Points to emphasize: the smooth draw, finger OFF the trigger until the gun goes on target, and the smooth trigger pressure, straight to the rear.
d. Now, load the gun. Practice drawing and firing one round at a time. After you shoot, scan for another threat--remember the +1 rule. After you draw and fire, and you can keep your rounds in the center of mass, start training to fire multiple rounds. Remember, you shoot to STOP.
e. The final step is to incorporate movement into your drill. When you have drawn, start moving. A couple of steps to either side will be enough to spoil someone's aim. Remember--everyone trains on stationary targets. Don't give them an easy target to shoot at.

Now, what's the other part of the warrior mindset? Simple...if you are confronted with the threat, ACTION beats REACTION.

Accept the possibility of having to take a hit. And, push into your mind that you will FIGHT through it at all costs.

Of course, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. be aware and alert of your surroundings. Look ahead when you're out for possible trouble areas. If you're out with someone else, do NOT let them block your gun hand by walking on the same side.

Most importantly--if you start trading shots, MOVEMENT IS YOUR FRIEND.

Do NOT fire more than two rounds without displacing yourself to the side, either direction, at least one or two steps.

Once again, accept the possibility of getting hit--but always resolve to fight through it, and to put your assailant down.
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Old January 8, 2012, 10:46 AM   #65
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I was about to ask some questions that have been answered in the previous post, namely what would you do at the range that would help you in situations like this.

The first thing is to try to imagine the senario that is more or less what we have been talking about here. I'd say that 10 yards is stretching the limit on distance and even ten feet might be. In every convenience store holdup that I've seen on tape, the distance was maybe no more than six feet, although in all of those cases, there was a counter in between, so that's a different senario.

The second thing is to actually try to do some of those things at the range and that's where the problems come up, if it's a private range. All I've even been to (indoors) had lanes and you could not move in any direction. Some didn't allow any drawing and firing but some do. One outdoor range I know of doesn't even allow offhand rifle shooting and no rapid firing. So, I suppose you might have to make it up with alternative methods such as pellet guns or wax bullets. Even then you might no have a good place to practice.

I also might note that in all videos I've seen (so far) of individuals practicing for a close in confrontation either with another person (as an attacker) or just a target (as a target), the defending individual shot one handed and pointing only, basically hip shooting. And likewise, they were all within almost touching distance (six feet or less). Ever see anyone doing that at the range? Chances are he would be laughed at for having the target so close but maybe not, no matter how realistic it actually is.

So the challenges are numerous. And this is just for one possible situation.
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Old January 8, 2012, 11:18 AM   #66
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RE the OP's original point. The way I've had it explained is that given competent shooters, the first guy that decides to shoot wins, even if he has to draw and the other guy does not. The key being the first shooter has already decided what he is going to do and has begun to act on that decision. The other guy now has to see what is happening, correctly process the information in his brain, and then begin his reaction. Apparently it's the rare fellow that can do all that and still manage to take the first shot.
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Old January 8, 2012, 11:20 AM   #67
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Bluetrain:

Let me address the range. I am a member of a couple local clubs but only shoot in their ranges if I'm conducting a clinic/match or shooting a match.

I really like shooting, all kinds of shooting so when I retired my goal was to pick a place where I could have my own range, and be able to shoot by just stepping out the door.

It took some research, spent a lot of time in the court house researching covenants and codes until I found the perfect place.

I wanted something that, when working on loads I could load a couple rounds, shoot, then go back to the loading bench without having to load up the truck and driving to a range.

Also I have target set up to 400 yards. Steel and paper. My shop is open to the range, meaning if its too cold and I get wimpy, I can shoot from inside the shop.

So yes, a private range is kind of handy, there aren't any rules regarding how I shoot. Excluding heavy rifles while wife is napping, as much as I like to shoot, I like to eat more.

Thinking about building a suppressor.
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Old January 8, 2012, 01:33 PM   #68
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Good for you. There are more people in this county where I live, about 1,300,000, than in all of Wyoming, yet I see deer and foxes in my back yard. My boss's wife was born in Wyoming and still owns a ranch there. They somehow met in Europe.

You sound like Dobe Grant. You don't happen to own a cut-down Model 1917 Colt, do you?
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Old January 8, 2012, 03:03 PM   #69
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Quote:
DNS,

The Tueller drill is a different thing, because the runner (with the simulated knife) is the one who is acting and the shooter the one who is reacting to the other person's movement.

The person who reacts is usually the person who loses, because action takes less time than reaction.

pax
Ah, the "action beats reaction" thing again. Assuming preliminary variables are held constant - meaning not relying on the issue of distraction or other variables that directly hamper movement, action only beats reaction in comparable movements or comparable timed movements. Action does not beat reaction when the reactionary movement is shorter in time by as much time as needed to start the reaction. We've played the airsoft draw on a drawn gun game. The person drawing instigates the action. The person with the drawn gun reacts and shoots the person who drew before he has a chance shoot, often before he has a chance to even clear leather.

Why does this happen? Because action doesn't beat reaction when the time to comlete the action isn't small enough to overcome the redcued amount of time required for the reaction event to be accomplished.

If you are just talking about action beating reaction, it doesn't work in this type of scenario. What kraigwy is talking about isn't just action/reaction but longer timed action beating distraction time plus the much shorter reaction time. If kraigwy was counting on action beating reaction, he would not be relying on the distraction aspect before starting his action.

Yes, the Tueller Drill is different, but as I noted, the person drawing often loses, but not always. The guy with the knife often loses. How is that possible if his movement was action and the person drawing was reaction? Simple. The person drawing can react and complete the task quicker than the action of running the 21 feet to stab the shooter. In those cases, reaction beats action.

Reaction comonly beats action. That is why martial artists learn and effectively use blocking moves. The moves to block as a reaction are usually moves shorter in duration than the action moves to strike.

There is one additional benefit to kraigwy's reliance on distraction. A lot of bad guys really are not prepared to start shooting. Unfortunately, there are some good guys with the same problem. So if something goes wrong from the bad guy's perspective, their first inclination isn't necessarily to pull the trigger and that costs them valuable time as well.

nate noted...
Quote:
The above is the product of one of those practice drills. Eight shots in 2.08 seconds, with a .53 reaction time and .22 average split. Thats not really that remarkable, till you consider the fact that it was with 230 grain +P ammo and all eight shots hit the torso A-zone of an ISPC target five yards away.
It is rather remarkable with regular ammo or +P compared to about 99% of gun owners. I found it rather amusing to be in gun classes such as at Thunder Ranch and doing a 3 or 5 shot drill of some sort and I could be finished firing and completing a mag change and be scanning and there would still be people firing.

From what I have seen, the average concealed carry person has a 3-4 second draw and fire first shot which is often much longer with alternative forms of carry. The practiced CCW person is usually in the 1.75 to <3.0 second range. These are times that are not after the person has been drawing and firing during a range session and is warmed but, but in having participants come in from the street, put on safety glasses and muffs and taken to the firing line. The shots are cold, from concealment, and without the benefit of retucking shirts, moving holsters, emptying pockets of additonal gear.

Yes, skilled and well practiced individuals are much faster. This group of people is the exception rather than the rule when it comes to the general concealed carry population.
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Old January 8, 2012, 03:06 PM   #70
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DNS, there is one thing you haven't mentioned about your airsoft experiments: unless you have omitted mentioning that it was a blind test, then the guys you trained with EXPECTED the victim to draw a weapon, and were waiting for any cue that was happening.

If the person doesn't actually anticipate resistance, that could put a definite damper on his reaction time.

It's not just about readiness to shoot, it's also about expectations.
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Old January 8, 2012, 03:16 PM   #71
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reverse the roll, if you had the drop on a bad guy (who you are unsure is armed) and he went for a weapon think you could pull the trigger before he unholstered draw and fire?
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Old January 8, 2012, 03:19 PM   #72
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Reversing your roll, if I have drawn on a BG, then he has already threatened me, and I am expecting trouble.

Same problem with DNS's airsoft test.

So, hopefully, yes, I'd put 2 or 3 good hits in first.
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Old January 8, 2012, 03:40 PM   #73
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Remember when you are considering these types of situations and how you might handle one, it's not a matter of what other people can/have been able to do. It's a question of what you can do.

Do you really know what you can do? Reliably and consistently? How do you know? Are you satisfied? If not, what are you doing to get better?
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Old January 8, 2012, 03:46 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueTrain
So the challenges are numerous. And this is just for one possible situation.
The Myth of Muscle Memory

Quote:
There’s no such thing as muscle memory. Literally speaking, your muscles don’t have memory. Nor do they operate independently. Your brain sends your muscles a signal to move. They move. Gun gurus and their acolytes use the term “muscle memory” to refer to unconscious or subconscious muscle movement. The Myth of Muscle Memory
Quote:
But you cannot train anyone’s “muscle memory” to respond to every threat situation appropriately. There are too many scenarios, too many potential variables.

Nor should you try. In fact, you should avoid training yourself to respond to threats with “muscle memory.” By doing so, you run the very real risk of activating the wrong “memory” or, if you will, subconscious stimulus -> response program. Get it wrong and, again, the wrong person may die. And that includes you. The Myth of Muscle Memory
Too many scenarios, too many situations where thinking and not reacting fast will win the day.

Having a smooth draw and accurate shooting are potentially valuable skills. Knowing when the risk out weighs the reward and how to still critically think under intense, life threatening situations maybe better ones. Having your handgun already drawn, or avoiding the situation entirely are always going to be better solutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DNS
It is rather remarkable with regular ammo or +P compared to about 99% of gun owners. I found it rather amusing to be in gun classes such as at Thunder Ranch and doing a 3 or 5 shot drill of some sort and I could be finished firing and completing a mag change and be scanning and there would still be people firing.
Yeah, it is kinda fast, but I spent years and years practicing...on targets.

If I'm in a real world shooting situation though, there won't be any range timers beeping, or stationary paper targets waiting patiently to get shot. When someone is holding a loaded firearm on me from 1-3 yards away and all they have to do is get in one lucky shot to end my life... who can really say? Even if you've been there before and survived, there's no guarantee they can again.
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Old January 8, 2012, 04:15 PM   #75
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The Myth of the The Myth of Muscle Memory

The ideal that there is no such thing of "muscle memory" is a myth within itself.

Unless you want to banter words. As to muscle's remembering anything, maybe, but the term "muscle memory" does not mean muscles remembering anything.

Muscle memory is the ability to act subsciencely without realizing it, and that isn't a myth.

A good example: Lets say you shoot competition, lots of competition with a rifle. You shoot with both eyes open. You've done that for years, thousands of rounds. So today you go hunting and shoot a critter, then someone asked you if you shot the critter with both eyes open. You don't know, but chances are you did have both eyes open.............that's muscle memory as it relates to shooting and shooting sports.

You train so you can react without thinking. When you reach that point it's muscle memory, whether you muscle's remember anything or not.

It's semitics. A clip is a clip unless you are clipping hair.
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Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
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