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Old January 5, 2012, 01:39 PM   #1
kraigwy
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So the bandit has the drop on you, so what

After reading several topics on bandit with gun on you, you're armed what would you do.

I am a firm believer, that if someone has a gun pointed at you, and you are carrying, the advantage is in your court. I think you can draw and fire before the bandit can shoot his gun he already has out.

But it requires you to practice drawing and firing. But here is a way to tell.

Take a buddy to the range. Both of you have separate targets, or I guess you can do it with one target.

Have your buddy aim his pistol at his target. Tell him when he sees you start to draw to fire. See who gets a round off first. You'd be surprised. It helps if you get him distracted, for example, get your wallet out and drop it. Chances are he'll look down.

I've taught this in LE, it works, if you get the guy talking, you'll beat him every time. You can't talk and draw at the same time.

Before you chime in and tell me I'm full of it, go to the range and try it. If you can draw your pistol/revolver, you have the edge.

If you ever read Jordon's NO SECOND PLACE WINNER, you'll know he stresses practicing drawing and firing one shot. Not that he's against multiple shots, but that its the first shot that counts.

I know I'm going to catch a lot of flak for this post, I'll only pay attention to those who've had tried it.

After reading about the Cousin who got carjacked, or maybe another subject I want out in my back yard, no warm up, I drew my pocket revolver out of my pocket and hit the center of a silhouette target in .43 seconds. Can't remember if it was 3 or 7 yards, but thats not the point. It was in the danger zone. I will admit I started with my hand on the gun, but I walk around most of the time with my hands in my pocket anyway.

I don't think the bandit can react that fast.
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Old January 5, 2012, 01:50 PM   #2
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I don't know...

I think if I "had the drop" on someone and they drew, I'd shoot them twice before they could bring their firearm to bear.

Chicago police officer was killed over the holidays, it's not totally clear if BGs just opened fire on him and he was before and while attempting to draw or if he began to draw and then was shot multiple times...

Of course being a police officer doesn't garauntee that you get good training either. Chicago notoriously underfunds their police in pay, equipment and training, and I'm not aware of any training of Chicago police where they train to basically outdraw someone. But still - he was a police officer and he was gun downed in a situation that sounds similar to what you are describing.

I can't say I've tried this so you can pay me no mind, but it's just my opinion.
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Old January 5, 2012, 01:51 PM   #3
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I think to take it one step further, force on force with airsoft guns will give you a better picture of whats more likely to happen, and actually let you practice it. You are actually trying to shoot each other, the only difference is, the guns arent "live", but you still get a ''result" to reinforce things.
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Old January 5, 2012, 01:54 PM   #4
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Good Training Advice

I totally agree with what your saying...the faster you can unholster and pull the trigger the better. True, that first round counts, and chances are "Bandit" isn't traning like you. It is a perishable skill though...don't expect to lock this down and stash it in the tool box for later use. To add to this technique, try shooting from the hip. This will save you time and get rounds down range. Take it slow the first few times, it might seem uncomfortable. "Cheater's Win The Gun Battle"!

Be Safe!
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Old January 5, 2012, 01:59 PM   #5
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I think part of the equation is that if the person has the gun drawn on you and already decided to not shoot or at least delay shooting it takes a moment for them to comprehend your drawing a concealed weapon...

The attacker felt they had superiority and the shock of you moving to action when they feel clearly superior takes the advantage from them to a degree...

Also you have to take in account they may have drawn on you but at that moment they have to decide in a instant if they have what it takes to pull that trigger, yet one more slight delay..
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Old January 5, 2012, 02:01 PM   #6
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Depending on distance, if I decided fighting was still the best course of action, I would physically attack with my weak hand, while simultaneously getting off the X and drawing.

That option would not be available if I were seat belted in a vehicle...
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Old January 5, 2012, 02:10 PM   #7
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Kraigwy, funny you should bring this up. Just a couple weeks ago I saw a clip on TV, I believe the show was American Handgunner but not sure. They tried something similar, but face to face with air soft pistols. You can not draw and shoot before someone with a pistol in hand shoots. It just can’t be done. They even tried side stepping while drawing. The guy with the gun in-hand won. I believe the guy drawing and shooting is the National Three Gun Champion, so he’s no dummy when it comes to firearms.
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Old January 5, 2012, 02:14 PM   #8
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I've seen it done in FOF classes. Given a distribution of speeds, reaction times, and all the human performance issues - it is mistaken to say:

1. You can definitely do it.
2. It can't be done.

There are techniques to enhance your chances.

Try it in FOF class.
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Old January 5, 2012, 02:22 PM   #9
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Maybe some of the older guys remember when the book, The Onion Field came out there was a big change in LE training stressing NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN.

We started a extensive training session where as we trained a great deal on drawing against someone who has the drop on you, I admit I was surprised but I received an education.

You also have the eliment of supprise, just look at the response I'm getting, no one expects one to draw their weapon when someone has the drop on them.

The question is, Try it, practice it, the worst thing that happens is you waste a few rounds shooting at a paper target.

Like anything else, the results you get is dependent on the amount of effort and practice you do.
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Old January 5, 2012, 02:28 PM   #10
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Maybe it can be done but I'm pretty sure I couldn't do it, even with a month of practice. The biggest problem is concealment, which I am assuming here, so doing a fast draw from a pocket holster is impossible and from real concealment is next to impossible--for me. I have tried it, though not from a pocket holster (none of my guns will fit in a pocket). I am also assuming that the other man does not know I have a gun--I'm not assuming which one is the bad guy, however.

No assumption was stated, I think, in the original post about which way we are facing when we are in this hypothetical situation.

There is another factor, too. The other man has probably made up his mind that shooting me is not a problem and I don't think that way. He has the edge on that point. You might call that the killer instinct.
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Old January 5, 2012, 02:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Given a distribution of speeds, reaction times, and all the human performance issues - it is mistaken to say:

1. You can definitely do it.
2. It can't be done.
This pretty much sums it up.

Its all going to depend on whats going on at the moment, and whos lucky.
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Old January 5, 2012, 02:35 PM   #12
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"Kraigwy, funny you should bring this up. Just a couple weeks ago I saw a clip on TV, I believe the show was American Handgunner but not sure. They tried something similar, but face to face with air soft pistols. You can not draw and shoot before someone with a pistol in hand shoots. It just can’t be done. They even tried side stepping while drawing. The guy with the gun in-hand won. I believe the guy drawing and shooting is the National Three Gun Champion, so he’s no dummy when it comes to firearms."


Tell that to bob munden


But yea for the rest of us... I must agree
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Old January 5, 2012, 02:46 PM   #13
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Snubnose in the jacket pocket... you don't even have to draw Good luck beating the time it takes for the primer to initiate!

Quote:
..a clip on TV..tried something similar, but face to face with air soft pistols. You can not draw and shoot before someone with a pistol in hand shoots. It just can’t be done..The guy with the gun in-hand won.
The fallacy of a test like that is the aggressor knows that at some point, the would-be victim is going to draw. They are alert and waiting for it, and they aren't concerned with the adreneline of a stick-up, getting cash/jewelery/other valuables, not being seen, and making a get-away.
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Old January 5, 2012, 03:03 PM   #14
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This is the proverbial "between a rock and a hard place" scenario: do you not move, hoping the bad guy will disappear, . . . or will you be shot dead with your weapon in it's holster?

From observation of other people, . . . plus knowing my own abilities, . . . I will probably be more inclined to take my chances at getting him before he can get me. I have seen very, very few people who can truly shoot a hand gun, . . . and none of them were of the bg variety.

The key, IMHO, is the timing of the act: during one of his distracted moments, . . . while he is threatening someone else, . . . ya just gotta look for the opening that gives a better percentage.

I always remember the old Marine at the Subway, . . . robbed him and herded them all toward the men's room, . . . probably to do em all away. Bg came around the door to meet a .45 slug in his face, . . . lost interest real quick. The old Marine waited his chance, . . . took it, . . . won the fight and the war.

May God bless,
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Old January 5, 2012, 03:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
I am a firm believer, that if someone has a gun pointed at you, and you are carrying, the advantage is in your court. I think you can draw and fire before the bandit can shoot his gun he already has out
.

A little demonstration we run the first week of every training class demonstrates how wrong you are. It's easy to duplicate if you want to verify it.

I have an officer point his weapon downrange with his finger on the trigger (weapon cocked if it's DA/SA). Hold a shot timer up next to his ear. All he has to do is shoot when he hears the beep. No target, nothing to hit, just shoot at the berm.

Fastest reaction time I've ever seen is .12 of a second. Slowest is just over 1/4 second. Never seen anyone over .30, most people are between .20 and .25.

So even a slow robber will have a reaction time around 1/3 of a second. If you can draw your concealed weapon and get off a shot in less than .30 of a second, you need to be putting Bob Munden out of business doing demos.

You'll also find that most people can easily do splits (time between shots) of .15 to .20 seconds.

That means that 1/3 of a second after you start to draw, your opponent will put his first shot into your chest, and .20 seconds later, his second shot will be in your chest.

Not to hard to demonstrate. Most smart phones can download a shot timer app. Do a few draw strokes and shots from concealment and see what your best time is. Typical times for a draw and first shot from a hip holster (no retention features, not concealed) are just over a second.

You may find the results of the test below interesting. A suspect already holding a gun in his hand and bringing it up is about equal to the reaction time of the cop already pointing a gun at him. No need to even try the experiment with the suspect's gun in the holster, it wouldn't be close.

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2011/06/...hooting-study/

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Old January 5, 2012, 03:13 PM   #16
BGutzman
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in a test the Aggressor already knows the defender will draw... in real life this isnt so.... the test is not entirely valid...
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Old January 5, 2012, 03:27 PM   #17
Glenn E. Meyer
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When I've seen it done in FOF, the draw was initiated not in a standing face off when the guy with gun was watching you and ready. It was when the guy with the gun was spouting off commands. His verbalization drew his attention and he was shot.

On the other hand, we did an exercise where we stood at arms reach and watched the opponent for a draw. Usually we could block the draw and tussle for the gun (red guns).

Or, I held the gun on the teacher - who told the class to watch this. He was obviously going to get off the X. So I 'shot' him. Did this before. Later, he ambushed me in while moving through a house. Payback!

So, it depends on the situation. The general principle unless you are the Flash is to see if attention of the gun holder is distracted by something or their own behavior.
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Old January 5, 2012, 03:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
I have an officer point his weapon downrange with his finger on the trigger..Fastest reaction time I've ever seen is .12 of a second.
I'd love to see the times put up by an NHL hockey goalie, Top Fuel/Formula 1 driver, professional welterweight boxer, or a legit fighter pilot.
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Old January 5, 2012, 03:43 PM   #19
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My CCW instructer in Idaho pocket carries a .357 scandium lightweight. His approach is to act like a wimp saying don't shoot, don't shoot, let me get my wallet and then bring the snubbie up into the belly and shoot. He is a professional with combat experience and a private security/protection expert. That was his approach.

For me, I don't think I would attempt to draw while drawn upon unless there is evidence that they are taking you somewhere to do you in. Open public typical mugging, give the wallet, be a good witness. Too many stories in real life of off duty cops deploying their weapon in crowded areas and a bystander is shot and killed, not necessarily by the cop, but there is likely in many situations more people at risk than you alone.

If I was going to draw, I would throw my wallet in a clumsy manner not making it look deliberate as a distraction. If the creep already has a gun in your face, you may have already missed your chance of self protection.
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Old January 5, 2012, 04:00 PM   #20
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Well, I know it's not gun related, but if their gun or wrist is within my reach I can grab and press it across them while drawing a knife and "sticking it in" quite fast. I've never had the luxury of a timer but we used an airsoft gun and I haven't been shot yet. At a further distance, I know I'm screwed, please no flaming.

I have also done this pistol versus pistol from outside the waistband behind a jacket. Got shot every time. I'd also like to point out it was a fake "reaching for the wallet" situation. Even when the person didn't know what I was going to do, I was shot. There was no adrenaline/increased heart rate involved, may be my fault there.

I feel numbers can be irrelevant in these situations, I don't care how fast I move as long as it's fast enough to accomplish what I need. I do understand for training purposes it's a great tool, just keep in mind that those numbers aren't the same every time.
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Old January 5, 2012, 04:01 PM   #21
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Quote:
I'd love to see the times put up by an NHL hockey goalie, Top Fuel/Formula 1 driver, professional welterweight boxer, or a legit fighter pilot.
I don't know any, but if you do, have them try this reaction time website:

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/

Their results seem to agree with mine, the very fastest may approach .10 of a second. The test results are here:

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/...time/stats.php
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Old January 5, 2012, 04:13 PM   #22
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Someone has to be honest about their abilities even with a lot of practice. In my case I'd have let the BG smoke a cigarette while I drew. My reaction time would not be very good against someone younger. For me heightened awareness is my best defense. To be truthful, once "most" folks had a gun drawn on me I'd be in a really bad spot.
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Old January 5, 2012, 04:21 PM   #23
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I am a firm believer, that if someone has a gun pointed at you, and you are carrying, the advantage is in your court. I think you can draw and fire before the bandit can shoot his gun he already has out.
Maybe in fantasy land.

An already nervous criminal with a finger on the trigger has you beat.

You are not going to make any large movements before that finger can move.

Many years ago I used to help demonstrate for police training.

The students dressed in riot gear for protection, and then tried to get the drop on me pointing a gun with wax bullets and only primers at them (simunition was way in the future).

It took very few attempts for them to quickly learn it was not going to work (and I was pretty far from any type of fast guy then).

It did take more with a supposedly 'trained' fighter.
He was second after I popped his classmate twice.

He never got a foot more than a few inches off the floor, or a hand more than halfway to me.

Keep in mind there is not a lot of a penalty for firing early.
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Old January 5, 2012, 04:27 PM   #24
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Yikes, forget about outdrawing anyone on my part. My best was 223. Not going to state my average or worst, but I will leave the fast draw to the young kids. I guess I am just a slow old fart. Better to be aware before something happens than to try and outdraw someone with the a gun to my head.
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Old January 5, 2012, 04:38 PM   #25
Willie Lowman
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I know I'm going to catch a lot of flak for this post, I'll only pay attention to those who've had tried it.
I'll get back to you on that...
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