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Old January 5, 2012, 04:55 PM   #26
JerryM
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Can anyone give an example of a homeowner needing more rounds than the gun held in a break-in?
I don't buy the argument of "I had rather have too many...." If one feels that way why not a hundred rounds and maybe a shotgun to boot?

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Old January 5, 2012, 05:01 PM   #27
zincwarrior
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To the OP, what do YOU in your gut feel is more important?

We told you to do that! You can thank us later.
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Old January 5, 2012, 05:06 PM   #28
markj
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Quote:
What should I go for:

More ammo capacity or higher caliber?
How about the one you can hit the target with. Amount of shot and caliber mean nothing if you miss every time, focus on shot placement that is important. Dont belive me? ask my cousin shot 3 times at close range with a 357. He is walking around today. My Uncle shot in nam 11 times, is still walking around, altho slowly.

I was shot once, and am still walking around. Now if he had better aim? wouldnt be here today.
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Old January 5, 2012, 05:13 PM   #29
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Moral of the story: stay away from MarkJ. His family draws fire like my mailbox draws bills.
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Old January 5, 2012, 05:58 PM   #30
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Moral of the story: stay away from MarkJ. His family draws fire like my mailbox draws bills.
Most of us are LEO or military. Nephew just got back from afgan he was in some heavy stuff but wasnt hit, his buddy and sgt were killed tho.
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Old January 5, 2012, 07:33 PM   #31
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You could always split the difference and get a high-cap .40 S&W. Better yet you could get the best of all worlds and get a Para Ordnance 14.45. A 14+1 capacity .45ACP ends the deabate, if you can grip it.
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Old January 5, 2012, 08:20 PM   #32
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Just a few other options... You know, for the fire power.
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Old January 5, 2012, 08:57 PM   #33
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I'm going w/capacity, too. I figure 20 rds from my XDm9 Compact 3.8 should be enough. If not, I've got 26 more close by.
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Old January 5, 2012, 09:04 PM   #34
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Quote:
To the OP, what do YOU in your gut feel is more important?

We told you to do that! You can thank us later.
I'm torn.

I guess I am leaning toward ammo capacity.

When we are at the range we are usually shooting at stationary targets, and we take our time aiming.

I think it would be much harder to hit a moving target, under extremely high stress, perhaps in low light conditions.

I've shot a lot at the range, but have never really trained for a true real life situation.

I think unless you have seen actual gun combat few people have.

You probably can never have too much ammo.

I also have an AR, and pump shotgun.

The pump shotgun really isn't ideal if I miss and I need to get off another shot. It does have an extended 8 shell magazine however.

The AR is a possibility, but I think it would be dangerous to go investigating with a long gun, because it can be taken away easier, and as the retired police officer said, it would be harder to open doors and move things.

However, it would be nice having 30 rounds in a magazine of 5.56 going about 3,000 fps. Those are extremely powerful rounds. Perhaps too powerful...


So I guess I am leaning toward my Glock 17 with the light, strobbing light, and laser.

I shoot very well with all my guns. However, I am no longer proficient with the shotgun. However, I can be.
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Old January 6, 2012, 07:46 AM   #35
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For home protection, one does not need ammo...

Every one of us knows the sound that a pump shotgun makes when a round is being chambered. Whether it is due to movie trailers or real life experience, it is an unmistakable sound.

I would argue that the simple act of cycling the shotgun open and closed again (without any effort to be quiet) will clear a home of intruders without ever resorting to squeezing the trigger. It is first line of defense in our home.

However, the intruder that is not wise enough to understand may need further education. For that reason, there is always a full magazine of home defense rounds in the gun.

Since my wife prefers the pistol-grip pump shotgun with green laser (because it compliments her black silk nightie), I have the backup Sig226 .40 in the Gunvault beside the bed. I am forbidden to shoot first.
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Old January 6, 2012, 08:17 AM   #36
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In order of importance: Mindset, Judgment, tactics, marksmanship, firearm.

We must all sleep and thus have no choice but be in Condition White from six to eight hours nightly. The intruder, on the other hand, is fully awake, alert and knows he's entering a hot situation.

To level the playing field, you need some form of early warning such as burglar alarms, a dog or a house that's really tough to break into without raising a racket. You need to go from a dead sleep to fully awake as quickly as possible.

Tactical advantage lies with the person who remains, armed, ready, hidden and motionless. Let the danger come to you if you have that option. Conduct a sweep and you become the prey.

You can buy a 13 round mag for an S&W M&P 45 if legal in your state. Para-ordinance also makes some high-cap .45s. Differences in caliber performance are greatly exaggerated and statistics on "one shot stops" are separated by mere percentage points.

And yes, it ain't Hollywood. Any armed resistance on your part will have intruders fleeing, not trading lead with you. An 8-shot .45 should be more than enough, assuming you can hit what you're aiming at.
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Old January 6, 2012, 09:06 AM   #37
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For home defense I'd rather have a shotgun around and a handgun for BU. If only a handgun, I'd go with one that has higher capcity that I have confidence in and can shoot well. Shot placement is fine and will do the job whether it's 380 or 45 but you never know how many people are there to begin with. I'd rather have extra bullets in case someone comes back with his/her friends. 8 rounds can go mighty fast in a stressful situation. Even on the street what with the gangs you could meet, you could really want those extra rounds no matter how well you shoot. And chances are for a lot of people they will be able to shoot a 9mm better than a 45 if nothing else than from being able to practice more.
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Old January 6, 2012, 09:46 AM   #38
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There is a great video series called "The Best Defense" by Midway USA that ran on the Outdoor Channel. During Season One, one of the shows was Home Defense Part 2 and they demonstrated the effect of .45 ACP handgun vs. 9mm handgun vs. AR-15 rifle vs. 12 gauge shotgun (using 00 Buckshot) vs. 12 gauge shotgun (using birdshot).

The hands-down winner was the 12 gauge shotgun using birdshot. Because we're talking about home defense, one of the most significant factors was the amount of penetration into and through structures that are behind the intended target.
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Old January 6, 2012, 10:33 AM   #39
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Bump in the night? First, a light, 60 lumens minimum, with a push clicky that makes momentary contact before tripping. You have a real need to determine what is out there to positively identify it. Teenagers coming home from closing shift, your neighbor wandering around a bit drunk and misoriented, whatever.

Choice of gun and caliber should be what you probably already carry for CCW. You practice with it and know that trigger better than any other, right? No fumbling with a rarely used safety or awkward grip.

Of course, it's already too late to ask yourself what you failed to do and why someone is now highly attracted to your property and person. Goes to most home invasions being 1) I stole drugs from my druglord, 2) Took his girlfriend. The minority left over is simply being what appears to be a victim. The young lady in Oklahoma had that working against her.

Overpenetration of bulllets is a genuine concern, but it works both ways: American frame home construction is flimsy, and undergunning yourself to prevent a unlikely chance of hitting the innocent needs to be weighed against the very real need to shoot the BG just the other side of the interior wall.

Have you actually mapped out the shooting lanes in your house and know which one endangers the family? Secondly, got to ask, why wasn't the BG DRT just inside the broken entrance? Someone's beating down the door, where else should you be with a light and gun? Telling them you'll shoot them while talking to 911.

Due diligence in setting up exterior security and not being an attractive nuisance to your neighborhood goes a long way in prevention.
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Old January 6, 2012, 11:52 AM   #40
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibby
The hands-down winner was the 12 gauge shotgun using birdshot.
You might want to search the Shotgun forum for that discussion; but I don't think that was the point the episode was trying to convey. IIRC, the host of the episode was Rob Pincus and he has discussed the limitations of birdshot and that particular episode in the forums here before.

As tirod pointed out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tirod
Overpenetration of bulllets is a genuine concern, but it works both ways: American frame home construction is flimsy, and undergunning yourself to prevent a unlikely chance of hitting the innocent needs to be weighed against the very real need to shoot the BG just the other side of the interior wall.
I just add that if it is stopped by a single interior wall in a typical frame home (two sheets of 5/8" drywall with no insulation between), it will probably be marginal on a 100lb+ mammal that represents an immediate threat of death or serious injury.
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Old January 6, 2012, 12:00 PM   #41
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The last bump in the night came when I was out of town, my wife and her big dog heard the same sound, she went down the hall ,nothing, she went across the den, nothing, she went through the kitchen, again nothing, and I will remind you, she took her big dog, no gun and for that I am thankful, then she opened the dining room door, reached around and turned on the light and there it was, something only she could see, I am so glad I was not there, DARTH VADER!!! against a white wall, she, as would be expected, was horrified, until she noticed her big dog, ready but for what, she did not know. I called the next day, she claimed I never told her about DARTH, I suggested her big dog was listening because he knew it was there.

The conversation started with “DARTH VADER” knowing something went very badly I said “I told you about DARTH VADER”! and she said, “NOT a problem, he is now a sailor cat” Long story that goes all the way back to being poor, so I begged her to retrieve him and avoid eye contact until I got home. And now? he stands between a wall and a triple dresser.

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Old January 6, 2012, 12:09 PM   #42
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Since no one has stated the obvious, buy a Glock 20 in 10mm and get both!
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Old January 6, 2012, 12:19 PM   #43
tet4
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Quote:
shotgun is a way way more effective weapon. Anyway you look at it, its way more effective.
I personally came to the conclusion that a shotgun was actually a pretty bad choice for me. I have a small child and if something were to happen, my first responsibility is to find her and get her to safety. That means probably picking her up. I honestly can't fire a shotgun properly with a child in my arms. I don't think anyone on this board can either.

Hence I have revolvers because I may not have another hand to clear a misfire and chances are that I won't be wearing a belt either.

Is that a bad choice?

I don't know. (Actually, I know that it's a good choice). However, someone asked if anyone ever needed more than a few rounds in a home invasion. If you read Lessons from Armed America, one of the stories is about an ex-boyfriend stalker that breaks in, and I believe there may have been a reload or two before it all finished, and I think that he was using a hi-cap pistol to begin with.

So, instead of pitting two arbitrary things together, I would suggest looking at the entire picture, and actually trying out the scenarios to see where things may fail. You might come to the conclusion, that, for your situation, it may be best to keep two 45s at the ready instead of 1 hi cap 9mm. Nothing wrong with that - you just have to come up with the right solution for your situation.
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Old January 6, 2012, 12:55 PM   #44
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A shotgun.

Plus racking a good pump shotgun will most likely be so effective by the time you get the breached area of the house there will be a thief size hole through the wall

So you might want to pick up some spackle with your buck shot
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Old January 6, 2012, 12:57 PM   #45
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I am pondering which handgun to take in case of a "bump" in the night I want to investigate.
I guess this gets into house clearing, and generally speaking, house clearing is not recomended. If you have a big dog that might be different, but in generally trying to clear your house is a bad idea as has been talked about in other threads.

Everyone's house is different, If someone is going to clear their house and it necesitates going around corners and through dorways then maybe a shotgun is not the best tool to do that with although some people who are really good with a shotgun, and know shotgun retention techniques well will argue that they can go around tight corners and through doorways in such a way that bad guys are not going to be able to disarm them.


I have three kids. If there were a shootout in my home I would worry about the BG rounds going into their bedroom. I wonder about going to their room first and trying to put them into a safer area, but I also worry about the BG kicking in their door while I'm trying to do that - I would be at a disadvantage because I would have a kid in my arms where as the other alternative is for me to place myself in the hall between invaders and the kid's room.

If I am between their room and the home invaders, I want to be using something that has the highest likelyhood of completely stopping them - given that I hit the target (them). So whether it is a #1 Buck out of a shotgun, 10mm, .45 +P or a 44magnum - I want the first pull of the trigger to have maximum effect and I would choose that over having additional rounds.
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Old January 6, 2012, 01:09 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryM
Can anyone give an example of a homeowner needing more rounds than the gun held in a break-in?
I am not aware of such an example off the top of my head to be honest. If we are only looking at statistics it would seem as if you have a sound argument. At least at first glance.

Have you ever encountered a situation where a homeowner defended his/her home unsuccessfully because their magazine(s) capacity were too high? I have not. Having more rounds (at least in my mind) means that I will ultimately have more options. Note: I am not saying you can substitute training and proper mindset with extra bullets.

There have been many document home invasions where innocent citizens have been killed (in their own home) because their homes were mistakenly hit/invaded instead of a drug house or meth lab. Homes are mistakenly invaded all the time and more often than not there are multiple assailants/attackers.

Having extra ammunition is not a bad idea IMO. I have never been much for arguing caliber but as Rob Leatham has said “I either want big, or a lot of.” I like a lot of You are going to have to go with what makes you feel the most comfortable based on your own level of training though.
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Old January 6, 2012, 01:18 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibby
I would argue that the simple act of cycling the shotgun open and closed again (without any effort to be quiet) will clear a home of intruders without ever resorting to squeezing the trigger. It is first line of defense in our home.
If you want noise to be your first line of home defense get a dog, or an alarm.

The myth of the racking shotgun slide being an effective tactic was dispelled many moons ago. It is well known to be tactically unsound. The chamber of your defensive shotgun should be loaded.

Birdshot is not recommended for defense, it severely under penetrates.

Lets review, Birdshot good for defense? = no, Racking the shotgun to scare intruders? = no.
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Old January 6, 2012, 01:37 PM   #48
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In my place a shotgun would be nice for hunting ( if I hunted ) or just target practice. Because I have a almost 3 yr old special needs child that likes to climb out of bed and makes noise and and is just a Tasmanian Devil so to speak. I would be afraid of the shot spreading out and striking her in the process of shooting at a BG. So I would rather use my revolver or my semi since I would have more control of where the bullet is going.
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Old January 6, 2012, 01:46 PM   #49
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JerryM, one example that leaps to mind immediately... Byrd Billings, near Pensacola, Florida.

Billings didn't have a gun, so it's not a perfect analogy. However, let's say for argument's sake he had a S&W 66. His house was hit by a half-dozen armed, masked gunmen.

Whether any gun would have been enough is questionable. However, if he had been able to mount a defense, he probably would have needed more than six rounds.

Make the weapon an M&P with 17+1... might be enough rounds, but what if the shooter has a stoppage? A spare magazine is good, when one is clearing stoppages.

Just because the average event doesn't require more than a cylinder doesn't mean that every event will not.
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Old January 6, 2012, 01:50 PM   #50
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9mm +P JHPs are potent enough, I think. People don't realize that, if f untrained, combat is extremely difficult and that their fine motoring skills are all but gone. Capacity > caliber.
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