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Old January 2, 2012, 09:43 AM   #1
MTT TL
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A word of caution to CCWs - NY Good guy shooting.

This I think is the third case I know of where an undercover in NYC has been shot while trying to stop a crime.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/c...tNSpoWCaMZPiEJ

From my perspective, were an armed robber (crazed drug addict too) headed outside to escape where my family was waiting in a vehicle (potential victims of a car jacking) I would have gone anyway. Still a bit to be learned here from both ends.
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Old January 2, 2012, 12:53 PM   #2
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Intervening in a robbery and what happens?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/ny...ns-deadly.html

The full story isn't out but some points:

1. The crook was leaving when the agent shot him in the leg?
2. Other LEOs arriving may have (we don't know) mistakenly shot the agent.
3. There is a general problem with friendly ID?

If the BG was not threatening lethal force at the time and was leaving, was it the right thing to shoot him, challenge, let go and trail, etc?

Hindsight bias is wonderful and of course, I would have blah, blah.

See how this plays out.
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Old January 2, 2012, 03:39 PM   #3
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A word of caution to CCWs

Here on Long Island, NY, we've had yet another tragic shooting. Briefly, a gunman attempted to rob a pharmacy of cash and pain pills. some customers fled to a nearby deli, imploring others to call 911 as an armed robbery was in progress. A retired Nassau County cop and an off-duty NYPD cop immediately responded but in the pharmacy was an off-duty BATFE agent who pulled his own gun and apparently was about to make an apprehension as the robber fled the store (perhaps in an effort to avoid gunfire in the store) Shots were fired and the robber fell dead and the federal agent died soon after. Premilinary reports indicate the robber carried a pellet pistol, increasing the likelihood that the agent was killed by friendly fire. It also appears that the two cops who responded, did not know each other.

The message for the CCW is clear: just because you see a gun doesn't mean the guy holding it is committing a crime. Avoid drawing a gun when police are present. If you must draw in public and police show up, do whatever you can to holster or lay down the gun to minimize the chances of mistaken identity and getting shot.
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Old January 2, 2012, 03:56 PM   #4
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From my CCW training, if the police show up and you have a gun drawn make slow downward movements and place the gun on the ground.
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Old January 2, 2012, 04:18 PM   #5
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I think this may be another case of cops shooting to quickly.

Hopefully, we will learn the facts and corrective action through training and policy changes will eliminate these friendly fire incidents.

This type situation should be of particular concern to those of us who carry.
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Old January 2, 2012, 04:21 PM   #6
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federali......Sad, very sad. Going by what information you have given us, since there were no civilians involved, other than the robber, I think your example shows how poorly NYPD and Nassau County cops are trained or relate to their training. Apparently they shot the BATFE agent without giving him a chance to identify himself or to do anything to minimize the chances of mistaken identity and getting shot. The BATFE agent was doing his job correctly and safely when he was murdered by a coupla idiots that shoulda stayed in the deli eatin' their donuts. Do we as CCW carriers need to be alert to something like this? Sure we do, but what good does it do when the cops won't give us a chance? Besides, if the robber was already on his way out of the store, there'd be no reason for a civilian to have their gun out and actively chasing him. This is not an example of how a civilian CCW made a mistake, but a prime example of why we are not safe just because the police show up. My prayers go out to the family of the BATFE agent, I hope the idiot cops get the book thrown at them.
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Old January 2, 2012, 04:35 PM   #7
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Personally, I would never follow a robber outside after a robbery, and I probably wouldn't shoot a robber if he appeared to be de-escalating by going for the door. I would probably try to find cover instead, if I hadn't already. Chasing after someone puts you at a tactical disadvantage. Following a robber outside after he exits a store puts you at serious risk of being perceived as the aggressor by bystanders, or by arriving police.

ETA: link to article http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world...a-1286015.html

The article says that the off-duty NYPD officer and retired Nassau officer saw the ATF agent and the robber in a "skirmish" outside as they approached the store. It's easy to see how that could have gotten out of control.
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Old January 2, 2012, 04:36 PM   #8
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NYC PD is just to quick on the trigger. It wasn't that long ago another cop (detective if I remember correctly) was shot, by a cop. Sounds like NYPD needs to review their department policies on when to pull the trigger.
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Old January 2, 2012, 04:46 PM   #9
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This thread should be merged with the parallel thread in T&T.
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Old January 2, 2012, 05:27 PM   #10
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Threatening Lethal Force

In my opinion, the announcement of a robbery while displaying or pointing a firearm is indeed threatening lethal force. In the Medford NY pharmacy robbery on Father's Day, the gunman elected not to leave witnesses and thus executed four innocents. To my knowledge, a gunman does not have to both display a firearm and state how or when he would use it. He could say, "give me the cash and you don't get hurt." Then, execute me anyway.

We are not obligated to take a robber at his word when he promises non-violence in exchange for cooperation.
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Old January 2, 2012, 06:35 PM   #11
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Wow....according to that, there is doubt that the ATF agent was even armed, much less have his gun pulled and waving it around.
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Old January 2, 2012, 06:51 PM   #12
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Personally, I would never follow a robber outside after a robbery, and I probably wouldn't shoot a robber if he appeared to be de-escalating by going for the door.
Really? What if your wife and kids were waiting outside in a running car as was the case here?
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Old January 2, 2012, 08:35 PM   #13
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Remember, boys and girls, only the police are trained enough to be trusted with firearms.
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Old January 3, 2012, 01:04 AM   #14
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I would suspect that "position sul" is your friend in the moments before and after you are actually shooting. Sul is a way of very professionally and safely pointing the gun down at the floor. It screams out "trained pro" to anybody with an ounce of firearms sense, with any luck even if they're not themselves trained in it.



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Old January 3, 2012, 01:50 PM   #15
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MLeake, got a link? I looked and can't pick it out without opening and reading down the page. That's 25 threads per page.
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Old January 3, 2012, 02:57 PM   #16
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All merged

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Old January 3, 2012, 03:07 PM   #17
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Quote:
The message for the CCW is clear: just because you see a gun doesn't mean the guy holding it is committing a crime. Avoid drawing a gun when police are present. If you must draw in public and police show up, do whatever you can to holster or lay down the gun to minimize the chances of mistaken identity and getting shot.
What's new?


This should be information already known even if you're not into guns or concealed carry. It's common sense.
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Old January 3, 2012, 04:49 PM   #18
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Unfortunaely, "common sense" doesn't apppear to be all that common anymore.
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Old January 3, 2012, 05:39 PM   #19
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Thanks, Glenn.

Good catch, MLeake.
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Old January 3, 2012, 06:18 PM   #20
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Sorry, Bud, I was on an iPhone, so thread searching was even more of a pain at my end...

Anyway, if the agent was still engaged with the BG when the off-duty and retired LEOs arrived, that would pose certain challenges for the responders. From the perspective of a potential responder, you have to determine who is who and what is what before pulling a trigger.

From the perspective of somebody in the agent's position... one has to be ready for the arrival of LEOs. There have been other threads where we've discussed that one trait a carry holster should have is sufficient rigidity that a gun can be holstered one-handed, by feel, in case one needs to watch the BG but doesn't want a gun in hand when LEOs arrive. Some people wondered why I thought that was important. This case may have provided an example, had it gone differently. (Since it is not clear if the agent had a drawn weapon, or may have been actively scuffling with the robber, when the LEOs arrived.)
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Old January 3, 2012, 09:20 PM   #21
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Is this a definite case of where...

a good witness is the best course of action?

All bets off if perpetrator start shooting at you???
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Old January 3, 2012, 09:34 PM   #22
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jrothWA, a complication in this case, (at least as reported by others) is that the agent's wife and child were sitting outside in an idling car. This could have made them ideal carjacking candidates for the robber's getaway, and it's entirely possible that thought made the agent decide to engage.
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Old January 3, 2012, 11:36 PM   #23
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Problem is in NYC, due to gun control, cops think anyone without a badge is a bad guy and it's a free fire zone.

Hence they don't hesitate to shoot someone with a gun, cop or not, if there is no ID.

Here in Texas I rarely hear of a cop shooting another cop, undercover or not.

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Old January 4, 2012, 08:25 AM   #24
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Quote:
I would suspect that "position sul" is your friend in the moments before and after you are actually shooting. Sul is a way of very professionally and safely pointing the gun down at the floor. It screams out "trained pro" to anybody with an ounce of firearms sense, with any luck even if they're not themselves trained in it.
Professionally trained? Those are often the most dangerous of criminals like Charlie Whitman, Platt and Matix, Benjamin Colton Barnes, Timothy Edward Carson, Bobby Lozano, Michael Edward Tindall, Carl Holliday, Athelson Kelson, John Allen Muhammed, Dennis Nilsen, etc.

Just because the suspect is professionally trained doesn't mean he isn't a bad guy.
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Old January 4, 2012, 02:35 PM   #25
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...p-robbery.html

Looks like he was shot by another intervener - who was ex-officer also.
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