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Old January 3, 2012, 09:55 PM   #51
MLeake
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GaryH, that's one way to look at it... but it is not a legally defensible way to look at it.
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Old January 3, 2012, 11:51 PM   #52
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I'd wait til he turned his back to me getting in the car as most do and then empty the magazine. Still getting a new car regardless because that ones gonna be full o holes and blood. I wouldn't want it anymore anyway.
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Old January 4, 2012, 12:51 AM   #53
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It's a sticky situation, because if the thug already has the gun on you, you might be a fool to attempt to outdraw him. If he simply gets away with your car, then life goes on. If however, it appears he wants to take you or your loved ones with him, put him on ice immediately if you can. You have a much lower chance of survival if you are transported somewhere by a criminal.

If you get out of the car and then pull the gun on him/shoot him as he's driving away, you'd end up in BIG trouble. Not worth it. If you can make him freeze on the spot, it might be worth it, be then again, you could be harassed by the police, even though you didn't initiate the confrontation. Oh well, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. You have to evaluate it on a case by case basis.

The best up front defense is to do your best to avoid seedy areas, especially at night. If you live in one, MOVE! I would if it came to that. Life is to short to live in a high risk area.
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Old January 4, 2012, 01:08 AM   #54
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Ruark: Definitely an idea, with these modern cars. You could get out of the car and run like hell, maybe even push the "Alarm" button on your remote. By the time he figures out the engine's off, you're long gone, or inside a store or something.

Another method of carjacking is the "bump." You're sitting at a red light and a car rolls up and bumps you from behind. The driver gets out, acting very concerned, looking and frowning at the cars, etc. You get out and walk back and pow, he pulls or shows a piece and you're carjacked. A year or so back a woman was carjacked in exactly this manner. They took her somewhere and raped and murdered her.
Yes. I was doing some more googling, and it does say on some sites that Toyota Camry's are the number one cars "stolen". I saw Ford on one site,
could not relocate it. But did see some other good suggestions regarding carjacking. One recommendation is to throw the key in one direction away from the carjacker and run the other direction, not toward the carjacker but away from the carjacker. They did not recommend thowing the keys at the carjacker though. The idea is what he does determines whether he wants the car or the victim more. In my case though, can't do that if my daughter is with me.

If one has that option or chance to throw the keys sounds to me like a good idea. A lot of the stats are distorted since the municipalities may record the incident as a robbery instead of a carjacking etc.
If one has extra gun or guns in the vehicle not on their person, and one surrenders the vehicle, that means the carjackers now have that gun to commit more crimes. I am highly susipicious when anyone approaches my vehicle, and I make an effort to get my gun out before they get close. But I worry about the times when I do not have one when headed for a federal facility.

Also it mentions on the bump and carjack on one site, that the accomplice stays around and drives the carjackers car away. I really like this thread,
because I had not given this matter much thought. One of my vehicles requires the smart key in the vehicle to start it, so killing the engine makes it almost impossible for him to take without the smart keys. I really like the idea of a remote start key for cold weather and even a remote shut down
might be a good idea. I may check to see what those options would cost me to add on my vehicles.
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Old January 4, 2012, 05:59 AM   #55
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Or you could get OnStar for a GM, or an aftermarket tracking system for other cars, and have tracking activated as soon as you get off the 911 call.
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Old January 4, 2012, 06:42 AM   #56
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If that happened to me I would have done exactly as your cousin did, gun or no gun. There is no need to have a shoot out over a Kia. Did they recover the car?
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Old January 4, 2012, 08:37 AM   #57
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If that happened to me I would have done exactly as your cousin did, gun or no gun. There is no need to have a shoot out over a Kia. Did they recover the car?
This is the same line of thought propagated by many on the left in response to violent criminals; "just give them what they want and then they will leave you alone." I have even seen it suggested that women don't fight back against rapists, to just let him have his way with them and then he will go on about his business when he is done. The fallacy with this line of thought is to assume that all the criminal wants is your wallet, or your watch, or your Kia. These are often violent sociopaths who not only want to rob you, they want to harm you. Many people have conceded to a gun wielding robbers demands, only to find themselves getting shot anyways. I am not saying that simply giving over the car is not the right move, it clearly worked for your cousin, but I think you need to be prepared to have a shoot out, not for a Kia, but for your life.
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Old January 4, 2012, 09:33 AM   #58
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TKCRob: This is the same line of thought propagated by many on the left in response to violent criminals; "just give them what they want and then they will leave you alone." I have even seen it suggested that women don't fight back against rapists, to just let him have his way with them and then he will go on about his business when he is done. The fallacy with this line of thought is to assume that all the criminal wants is your wallet, or your watch, or your Kia. These are often violent sociopaths who not only want to rob you, they want to harm you. Many people have conceded to a gun wielding robbers demands, only to find themselves getting shot anyways. I am not saying that simply giving over the car is not the right move, it clearly worked for your cousin, but I think you need to be prepared to have a shoot out, not for a Kia, but for your life.
I don't think anyone posting here is really advocating not resisting if there is opportunity to resist. The priority is surviving the encounter. I have a situation that demands that I draw if my daughter is with me, but otherwise I would try to get out of the encounter alive. I am not surrendering my property without using my gun either if I have the opporunity but if he has the drop on me, I would rather let him have my car which is insured anyway. If there is a chance to shoot him during the encounter I certainly would. But others have pointed out that there is very little time to draw your weapon if he is right at your door.
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Old January 4, 2012, 10:27 AM   #59
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I agree with you TJ7, I probably didn't word my response well. I don't think anybody is advocating just rolling over, but I think there are many that think that if I just give them what they want they will leave me alone, and I think that is a dangerous line of thought. I, like you, do not have the option of just giving up my car, there will usually be a gorgeous 1 year old girl strapped in her car seat behind me and I am not going anywhere without her. But by the same token, even if she is not with me and I can give up the car, I also do not think her growing up with out a father is an acceptable option so I am going to do everything possible to keep myself out of a dangerous situation (situational awareness) and fight back if needed.
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Old January 4, 2012, 10:56 AM   #60
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For a freakin' Kia? The world is going the heck in a hand basket...

Going back to the subject of T/T - the cousin did the right thing by letting the BG have the car. Would be different if there were loved ones in the car or if the BG was gonna kidnap him. If that were the case, fight 'till the BG is dead or you're dead. It don't matter because if they are going to kidnap you or your loved one, chances are you're dead anyway. This is why I carry a gun, pepper spray, and a knife almost all the time. In a world where BGs carjack Kias...well, you get it...
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Old January 4, 2012, 11:47 AM   #61
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My cousin once had a crack head try to jump into his pickup through the passenger window in detroit, the out side handel did not work (He does construction there alot). He had to use a screwdriver to open his hood and at the time his truck would stall and he would have to open the hood and do somthing to get it started again. He just happened to have the screw driver in his lap that day after recently having to open the hood and sunk it into the crack head between his neck and shoulder about 5 inches ( I seen the screw driver and the blood line was almost to the handel). My cousin got cut with the guys knife but not bad. My cousin floored the truck and the guy fell off once he get stabbed, who knows what happened to him. Had the crack head had a gun instead of a knife it would have been a better idea for my cousin just to step out and let the guy have the truck because he probably would have been shot trying to react the way he did. It is easy to say I would do this and I would do that but really it is hard to say what you would do because everything happens so fast. Even if you do what you think you would do, there is no possible way to predict what the outcome would be.
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Old January 4, 2012, 12:17 PM   #62
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Hmm.

So your cousin stopped at a railroad crossing because the gate was down?(Oncoming train) Now, if there was a train coming, how did the perps get away? Just trying to get some more details.

As far as pulling my gun? Yes I would have. Many here say "Let them have the car". OK, how do you know they wouldn't have shot you anyway once you did get out of the vehicle?
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Old January 4, 2012, 05:48 PM   #63
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My biggest fear is the car jacking.

That is my number one fear, and one of the things I do is make sure my car is gassed up at a local station before I drive anywhere and even at my own local station I am usually on high alert.

Here is another car jacking in Chicago - but the guy ended up surviving it:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...ag=re1.channel




.
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Old January 4, 2012, 06:46 PM   #64
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Glad cuz is OK.

Carjacking....humm...pretty well screwed if you pocket carry only.

Really up the creek if you're unalert and unarmed.

This is one of the reasons I stay way back from the car in front of me at stops, railroad crossings and even open highway when possible. More space = more reaction time and more options.
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Old January 4, 2012, 07:45 PM   #65
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Hmm.

So your cousin stopped at a railroad crossing because the gate was down?(Oncoming train) Now, if there was a train coming, how did the perps get away? Just trying to get some more details.
Nobody said a train was coming or that the gate was down. Nobody said it was a one way street with high rails to not let you get off the road. The OP did say that other cars were driving around them thinking it was an accident. So getting away really wasn't a problem. Even if the gate was down, folks turn around at RR crossings all the time because they are usually on 2 way roads.

Quote:
As far as pulling my gun? Yes I would have. Many here say "Let them have the car". OK, how do you know they wouldn't have shot you anyway once you did get out of the vehicle?
It always sounds cool to draw on a drawn gun. I asked this above but will ask it again...

If you can't punch the accelerator to egress from the situation, what are you going to do? How quick is your driver side belted in the seat in a car with closed doors and windows draw and fire to hit the target? Are you going to be able to accomplish that task before the bad guy pulls his trigger? The bad guy already has a gun pointed at you by the time you have figured out what is going on. Are you really that good, stealthy, and fast to be able to draw and fire on him successfully before he shoots you?
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Old January 4, 2012, 08:39 PM   #66
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Nobody said a train was coming or that the gate was down. Nobody said it was a one way street with high rails to not let you get off the road. The OP did say that other cars were driving around them thinking it was an accident. So getting away really wasn't a problem. Even if the gate was down, folks turn around at RR crossings all the time because they are usually on 2 way roads.
Ok then why was he stopped? What I read in the original post is that cars were going around the incident that was happening(carjacking in progress)

Quote:
It always sounds cool to draw on a drawn gun. I asked this above but will ask it again...

If you can't punch the accelerator to egress from the situation, what are you going to do? How quick is your driver side belted in the seat in a car with closed doors and windows draw and fire to hit the target? Are you going to be able to accomplish that task before the bad guy pulls his trigger? The bad guy already has a gun pointed at you by the time you have figured out what is going on. Are you really that good, stealthy, and fast to be able to draw and fire on him successfully before he shoots you?
What if they guy is hopped up on PCP, Coke, etcetera and decides to shoot at you for the hell of it even AFTER you give them the car? I would rather give myself a chance than to be a dead victim.

I agree with you in the fact that if you can punch the accelerator to get out of there, do so. That would be my first choice. However I am basing this case on the fact that he was blocked in.
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Old January 4, 2012, 11:02 PM   #67
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if the car was in the outside lane the car jacker could have simply made a U turn to get away as there is no on coming traffic to worry about if the train is going by.
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Old January 5, 2012, 01:40 AM   #68
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I don't have all of the details as to what exactly happened. I heard everything from my mom and my aunt. I have been trying to get my cousin to call and talk to me but he is 17 and probably embarrased or too full of pride. From what my family is telling me, he is too scared to leave the house.

I really want to talk to him to give him some advice and to reassure him that this was a freak thing and you cannot live your life in fear. I have been robbed at gunpoint 3 times in my life, so I got my CCW and carry everywhere now. He is too young for that at the moment but he can still learn the same defensive mindset that I have.

I will get to talk to him eventually and when I get all of the details I will be happy to share them with you guys.
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Old January 5, 2012, 09:50 AM   #69
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Ok then why was he stopped? What I read in the original post is that cars were going around the incident that was happening(carjacking in progress).

What if they guy is hopped up on PCP, Coke, etcetera and decides to shoot at you for the hell of it even AFTER you give them the car? I would rather give myself a chance than to be a dead victim.

I agree with you in the fact that if you can punch the accelerator to get out of there, do so. That would be my first choice. However I am basing this case on the fact that he was blocked in.
Vinny, you seem to be fixated on non-relevant issues. It does not matter why the car was stopped. According to which set of stats you use (which seem to vary some depending on when and where they were gathered), something like half of all carjackings happen in traffic. Most of the rest happening at gas stations and in parking lots. However, if it will ease your mind some, it could be very well likely that the carjackers purposefully followed behind a vehicle required by law or by policy to stop at railroad crossings such as a school bus, petroleum tanker trunk, etc. Not only would the carjackers get a car stopped behind them due to a normal type of traffic stop, but they would also have the blockage (bus, truck) clear out of the way so as to be able to make a nice getaway.

It also does not matter how it was the the carjacker arrives at the decision to shoot you. Being on PCP, coke, etc. is not needed for that decision to be made and so too this is a non-relevant factor. Heck, it may be that the guy isn't on PCP, coke, etc. when he carjacks you and that is why he is carjacking you...to get money to get the drugs he wants.

So what if he decides to shoot you after you give him the car? You would rather give yourself a chance rather than being a dead victim? If a robbery is being committed against you, then you are already a victim. However, what you are expressing seems to be an ego-emotional response and using it as a basis for determining that you are going to try to draw and fire on the bad guy. You don't want to die without fighting and you are more afraid of dying without fighting than you are of just losing your vehicle.

A fighting chance? Interesting choice of words. Drawing on a draw gun is one way to make sure that there will indeed by a fight and one that you will be entering well behind the curve. Maybe you will get really lucky and the bad guy isn't carrying a real, loaded, or functional gun. Or maybe he does what these guys did and just open up on you once they see what you are doing. These guys bested a tactical (SWAT) officer. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...highlight=1201

So once again, just how stealthy and fast is that draw of yours? It isn't really much of a fighting chance if you can't get your gun out and shooting at the robber before he just shoots you multiple times. Are your chances really better by drawing on a drawn gun than with complying?

I am not suggesting that you should not fight, but being smart about when you choose to fight. Complying until which time you have an opportunity to draw is likely a much better option than forcing the issue of starting a gun battle where the opposition is ready and on target and you don't even have a gun out. Drawing out of ego or emotional factors probably aren't going to make for the best tactical decisions.
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Old January 5, 2012, 06:41 PM   #70
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Vinny, you seem to be fixated on non-relevant issues. It does not matter why the car was stopped. According to which set of stats you use (which seem to vary some depending on when and where they were gathered), something like half of all carjackings happen in traffic. Most of the rest happening at gas stations and in parking lots. However, if it will ease your mind some, it could be very well likely that the carjackers purposefully followed behind a vehicle required by law or by policy to stop at railroad crossings such as a school bus, petroleum tanker trunk, etc. Not only would the carjackers get a car stopped behind them due to a normal type of traffic stop, but they would also have the blockage (bus, truck) clear out of the way so as to be able to make a nice getaway.

It also does not matter how it was the the carjacker arrives at the decision to shoot you. Being on PCP, coke, etc. is not needed for that decision to be made and so too this is a non-relevant factor. Heck, it may be that the guy isn't on PCP, coke, etc. when he carjacks you and that is why he is carjacking you...to get money to get the drugs he wants.

So what if he decides to shoot you after you give him the car? You would rather give yourself a chance rather than being a dead victim? If a robbery is being committed against you, then you are already a victim. However, what you are expressing seems to be an ego-emotional response and using it as a basis for determining that you are going to try to draw and fire on the bad guy. You don't want to die without fighting and you are more afraid of dying without fighting than you are of just losing your vehicle.

A fighting chance? Interesting choice of words. Drawing on a draw gun is one way to make sure that there will indeed by a fight and one that you will be entering well behind the curve. Maybe you will get really lucky and the bad guy isn't carrying a real, loaded, or functional gun. Or maybe he does what these guys did and just open up on you once they see what you are doing. These guys bested a tactical (SWAT) officer. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...highlight=1201

So once again, just how stealthy and fast is that draw of yours? It isn't really much of a fighting chance if you can't get your gun out and shooting at the robber before he just shoots you multiple times. Are your chances really better by drawing on a drawn gun than with complying?

I am not suggesting that you should not fight, but being smart about when you choose to fight. Complying until which time you have an opportunity to draw is likely a much better option than forcing the issue of starting a gun battle where the opposition is ready and on target and you don't even have a gun out. Drawing out of ego or emotional factors probably aren't going to make for the best tactical decisions.
Wow, where to begin....

Ok, so even if my life is in danger,(carjacker rushes toward me with gun),I need to evaluate if I should shoot him or just give up and give him the car?Fine. Let's say I do that and he shoots me anyway. Wow, glad I was armed, right?

C'mon. It is not about ego or being macho, it is about common sense and defending my life, period. The way you wrote your post is that I should only draw when it is convenient. Really?
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Old January 5, 2012, 09:39 PM   #71
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C'mon. It is not about ego or being macho, it is about common sense and defending my life, period. The way you wrote your post is that I should only draw when it is convenient. Really?
It's not about drawing when it is convenient. If a guy has a gun drawn on you and is asking for your car, why would you take a chance and draw on him at that moment. That's not to say one shouldn't draw on the guy as he's getting into the car. It's all about timing.

Think of it this way, if the BG is going to shoot you, he probably would have done so as soon as you got dragged out of the car. Do you really think you can draw THAT fast? I know I can't and I doubt many here can either.

HOWEVER, if you're saying that you would attempt to wrest the gun away, that's a different story. If you're trained, it is entirely possible to disarm the BG A LOT faster and easier than drawing. You would actually have a better chance doing that than drawing. Really.
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Old January 5, 2012, 09:50 PM   #72
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I have a LEO friend who has done exactly that (wrested guns away) at least three times during bad-breath distance confrontations.

BG's had sprained or fractured wrists or forearms for their troubles.

Combo of jujutsu training and a lot of kettlebell workouts...
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Old January 6, 2012, 07:11 PM   #73
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Old January 6, 2012, 07:34 PM   #74
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However, if I sensed I was personally in danger it’s a different story.
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I will not shoot anyone to protect "property".
Some posts can be rather irriating.

If a car pulls in front of you, stops, and men with guns get out, I find it interesting that you would't feel your life is in danger at that very moment. It ceased to be a "property" issue very quickly.

Getting out of your car as fast as they do and engaging, or being prepared to engage, the suspects wouldn't be about shooting some one over your car. It would be about your life.


You may consider that your chances of surviving are better if you comply like a Lemming. I'd be afraid they wouldn't leave me alive so I could get on my cell phone and get the police involved. Wouldn't be much sense in stealing your car if they were going to let that happen.

Obviously, if you didn't see it coming, and are that far behind the curve, then compliance may be your only option. Then you have nothing to say about whether you live or die---unless you consider begging for your life a say in the matter.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Old January 6, 2012, 07:35 PM   #75
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It's not about drawing when it is convenient. If a guy has a gun drawn on you and is asking for your car, why would you take a chance and draw on him at that moment. That's not to say one shouldn't draw on the guy as he's getting into the car. It's all about timing.

Think of it this way, if the BG is going to shoot you, he probably would have done so as soon as you got dragged out of the car. Do you really think you can draw THAT fast? I know I can't and I doubt many here can either.

HOWEVER, if you're saying that you would attempt to wrest the gun away, that's a different story. If you're trained, it is entirely possible to disarm the BG A LOT faster and easier than drawing. You would actually have a better chance doing that than drawing. Really.
Then why carry? Just leave the pistol at home and cave-in to the bad guys.

Seriously, if a BG came towards my car with a drawn gun I would for sure draw down on him. At that moment, I don't know if he will put a pill in me or not, but I won't go down without a fight.
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