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Old January 2, 2012, 04:36 PM   #26
BlackFeather
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Well, I'm glad you're cousin is okay, been through some similar stuff myself.

I have to wonder, why a Kia? They must have been running drugs or something because that car isn't worth much. Even parted out.
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Old January 2, 2012, 05:28 PM   #27
Opinated
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Situations as the one described do not offer much time for considering the options. And in some cases there are no good options. One of the truths in life is that once a person decides that you will be their victim, you indeed are their victim even if you kill them and do not suffer physical harm.
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Old January 2, 2012, 05:50 PM   #28
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Thank God your cousin is alive. Your cousin did the right thing by giving up the vehicle. It is hard to say what I would have done because once you are at gun point, your options becomes limited. Trying to unholster the gun and engaging the criminal will not be wise in this case. But others believe it can be done. Then the question becomes.......................

Is it possible for a criminal to draw and shoot you when you have already had him at gun point? If you believe you will shoot them before they engage then so can the reverse be true. The criminal has nothing to lose and will gladly take your life. So I will only engage when I have the upper hand in the situation.

These will be my reaction base on this scenario.
1. Run him over with the car if possible
2. Give up the vehicle and walk away
3. Give up the vehicle and once he gets inside engage him while taking cover and emptying the magazine.
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Old January 2, 2012, 07:51 PM   #29
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Sorry to hear about your cousin. this will affect him the rest of his life like any other traumatic experience. Hopefully he can learn from it.

When you are in your car is about the most defenseless place you can be if someone walks up to you. Train crossings are even worse. Learning to leave enough room in front of you always is a very good thing to do.

A lot of times car jackings are the start of a serious crime spee. No one wants to run drugs or rob a bank driving their own car so they jack one. This is problematic because if you can't get out quickly they are going to remove you.

So my rule is that if I'm the only one in the car I'll try to get away as soon as possible. If there are others in the car there's no way I'm letting them go. One reason I got a permit was because of this particular situation when I had my kid. There's no way. Could get her out quickly and Ive decided that I am never going to get into a kidnapping situation if there's any way to stop it.

This is why I don't like to carry in the console or glove box. On body really is the only good way. Even then I would encourage everyone to actually sit in their car and try to draw with seat belt on or while getting out, etc. It could be illuminating.
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Old January 2, 2012, 08:13 PM   #30
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Quote:
I will not shoot anyone to protect "property".
But would you shoot to protect your life? Your life is most definitely being threatened if you are being carjacked like the 17 year old cousin.

Quote:
Having said that, I will not give up my gun,
So maybe you would indeed shoot to protect "property."

Quote:
Where is my situational awareness? I would never be in Chicago to begin with, in my case.
Carjackings don't just happen in Chicago.
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Old January 2, 2012, 08:42 PM   #31
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I had to go to Aurora last week. I wouldn't go there for any reason normally, but I had to go there last week. I was definately on a high state of alert, on the street, when I gassed my car, parking in the garage - everywhere.

My aunt lives in Chicago, she is not moving out and unfortunately my mom drives there to see her. If my mom called with a car problem I would drive out there to help her with it.

It's easy to say "If you think you're going to need a gun to go into some neighborhood - don't go" or "If you're living someplace you consider to be so dangerous that you have to arm yourself - it's time to move." But the reality is it's not that easy for all people.

My father had a tuck driver of his get arrested for making a "Hazmat" spill. The driver backed over something and punctured one of his fuel tanks and dumped some diesel in what was basically an empty lot. Because he didn't follow the reporting requirments Chicago Police arrested him. My dad asked me to go with him to bail the driver out. Very bad area. I did take my HK P7M8 with me, in the car.

Hopefully Illinois gun laws will change soon.
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Old January 2, 2012, 10:02 PM   #32
Jeremiah/Az
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Just a thought, if you are carjacked & step out & back, the BG is going to have to turn his back to you to get in your car. Can you legally shoot him then? Is he still a threat? He's leaving. Are you JUST protecting property @ that point?
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Old January 2, 2012, 10:09 PM   #33
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BG doesn't have turn his back to you, he can do all sorts of things like tell you to turn around and start walking and advise you that if he sees you so much as start to turn around he'll kill you.

He can tell you to get down on the ground and face away.

He can just shoot you...
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Old January 3, 2012, 01:31 AM   #34
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My cousin is thankfully alive after this ordeal. I have heard too many stories where the victim did not just simply walk away.

I was thinking about what I would have done if I was in the car with him. Since he does not know I carry, I'd just whisper to get out and run. I would get out on the passenger side, take cover and begin to open fire on the BG and any of his idiot friends that decided to join in.

I have lived in or around Kansas City for all of my 31 years on this earth and the crime has never been so bad around here. I am getting really tired of it. I'm sure some of you remember me telling you about the 3 times I was robbed at gunpoint, twice in KC.
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Old January 3, 2012, 01:31 AM   #35
Justice06RR
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I came in this world without anything, I'll leave this world without anything.

I will not shoot anyone to protect "property".

Having said that, I will not give up my gun, I carry it to protect my loved ones, as long as they aren't threatened, you can take my car, truck, or what ever. I'll keep my gun to assure property is all you get.

I've hitch hiked home before, I can do it again.
As nice as that sounds, we live in a dangerous and violent world. Your life is already in danger, not just your property when the BG pointed his gun straight at you. Cooperating is a good option of course, but if it comes down to it and you need to defend yourself and your property, then you should be prepared to do so.

To the OP, glad your cousin was unharmed in this situation. Did they catch the BG's?
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Old January 3, 2012, 01:35 AM   #36
TheNocturnus
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To the OP, glad your cousin was unharmed in this situation. Did they catch the BG's?
I'm not sure. I did hear there was a drive by shooting later that day though and it was assumed it was done by the same individuals.
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Old January 3, 2012, 04:35 AM   #37
TexasJustice7
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Quote:
DoubleNaughtSpy: Carjackings don't just happen in Chicago
You clearly have a point, and certainly I might shoot to protect property as well. But if I am by myself, and I have to take a considerable chance of losing out grabbing for the gun I would let them have the car. But if my daughter is in the vehicle, thats a game changer. I will draw, because even if I surrendered the vehicle, they would not take the time to get her out and she could not get out on her own.

And if I had time to draw my gun without attracting attention before he arrived close enough to shoot me, I would try to be ready for him when he arrived at the window.

But I keep my smart keys under my shirt not visible. He will need them if I have a chance to kill the engine. Both my vehicles have full coverage, so insurance will replace them, so those alone are not a good enough reason to take a chance as well on going for a gun when hes already got the drop on me. Question is can I be ready and waiting before he gets close.

Chicago may not be the only place carjackings happen, but the criminals there on the engandgered protected spieces list, have a higher probability of not facing an armed citisen than they do in Texas. In fact they probably prosecute citisens without a permit for defending themselves against their criminals. At least that is my opinion of Illinois and Chicago.
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Old January 3, 2012, 09:18 AM   #38
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And if I had time to draw my gun without attracting attention before he arrived close enough to shoot me, I would try to be ready for him when he arrived at the window.
So if the car in front of you has doors open up and grandpa with a walker gets out, uncollapses the walker, reaches back in for his gun, and then scoots toward you 6-8" at a time until reaching your driver side window, looking at the ground the whole while so that he is sure to catch the walker on a crack/pothole in the pavement, then you might have time to draw without attracting attention by the time he arrives.

From the stats that I am seeing online, which are a bit sketchy because most states do not categorize carjacking as a specific crime type in regard to statistics, about half of carjackings take place when folks are stopped in traffic. That means your carjacker may be as close as 3-5 feet away at the start of the crime and you would not be wary of the person before the crime starts because that person is just the passenger in the car next to you stopped at the light.

Maybe he is in the vehicle in front of you at a light. He can get out and run to your door before you get your gun out (your actions being quite visible because you are in a hurry to accomplish the task) as has been found out by numerous cops who have pulled over cars, only to have the driver jump out and charge them.

Quote:
In fact they probably prosecute citisens without a permit for defending themselves against their criminals. At least that is my opinion of Illinois and Chicago
In fact they probably???? Then it isn't a fact. Your categorization is in error. Citizens are prosecuted for self defense as you indicate, but for firearms violations. These are two completely different things. New York does a bunch of this as well.

A lot of us are going to try to stop the carjacking from happening, if we can. That sort of goes without saying. However to be able to do it is a whole other matter than actually doing it, time being one of the critical factors.

Quote:
have a higher probability of not facing an armed citisen than they do in Texas.
And yet carjackings still keep happening in Texas. The keep happening in all of the conceal carry and vehicle carry states.
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Old January 3, 2012, 12:18 PM   #39
TexasJustice7
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DoubleNaughtSpy: Maybe he is in the vehicle in front of you at a light. He can get out and run to your door before you get your gun out (your actions being quite visible because you are in a hurry to accomplish the task) as has been found out by numerous cops who have pulled over cars, only to have the driver jump out and charge them.
You may very well be right, and he may even had the drop on me. If that is the case and I am alone, I will let him have the vehicle. But with my disabled daughter in the vehicle (like a 3 yr old, she is in her 30's), I will draw
and probably die in the attempt, but I will never surrender the vehicle with my daughter in it. If he does kill me maybe he will leave without bothering to
drag me out of the vehicle and maybe leave her unharmed. But while I am alive I have a duty to protect her and I will do so even if it costs me my life.
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Old January 3, 2012, 01:32 PM   #40
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This is why I have not one but two knives in pre-planned spots on my truck.
I have full vehicle insurance so if all he wants is my truck so be bit; but if I felt like the guy was after more than my vehicle, it would be a fight to the death.


IF we could CC here in the land o Lincoln I would in a heartbeat.

Carjackings can and do happen anytime, anywhere.
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Old January 3, 2012, 01:33 PM   #41
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Again, get in a habit of stopping so you can see the rear wheels of the vehicle in front of you, and you should have much better odds of just being able to hit the gas and turn the wheel.

If the car in front backs up without obvious cause (such as having overshot the stop line, and traffic starting to cross), it just might be time to clear a weapon.
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Old January 3, 2012, 01:36 PM   #42
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As far as wondering, "why a Kia?" bear in mind that for many years, the most commonly stolen cars were fairly low-end Hondas. Why? They are all over the place, and the stolen cars can be used to supply parts under the table. The parts probably sell for a lot more than the assembled car would.

Look at whatever cars are popular in higher crime neighborhoods. Those models are strong candidates for theft for parts.

OTOH, a non-descript car makes a better getaway vehicle, so those are strong candidates for pre-robbery acquisition.
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Old January 3, 2012, 02:00 PM   #43
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If it isn't an American car or truck it isn't worth saving just sayin......
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Old January 3, 2012, 02:21 PM   #44
output
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
The question is, at what point do you realize what has happened? At some point, you very well could be so far behind that resistance would have very poor odds.
Very good point, having a CCW does not guarantee anything. Does having a CCW better your overall odds in these kinds of situations? Yes. Having multiple options is always a good idea.

In this circumstance I can create a very strong argument that situational awareness could have been enough to change the outcome of the event just as MLeake mentioned. I suppose one can also argue that it is not always easy to conduct our day to day life in a high or moderate state of alert.

This kind of scenario is one reason I like to keep at least one car-length opening between my vehicle and the next. The same applies to railroad crossings, red-light intersections, etc. Once an armed assailant has the drop on you, the chance(s) of pulling and using a weapon of any sort in self-defense effectively drops significantly IMO and even more so once you are boxed in a small car with limited physical mobility.

In short, maintain situations awareness - it is and should always be your first line of defense.
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Old January 3, 2012, 03:09 PM   #45
TexasJustice7
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Marine513: If it isn't an American car or truck it isn't worth saving just sayin......
I just wondered what the most commonly carjacked vehicle is and googled it. Don't know how current the info is but one site said Ford is the most commonly carjacked vehicle. Another vehicle said that carjackers don't
particularly carjack any one type. Didn't see any trend for Hondas or Toyotas on the sites I checked.
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Old January 3, 2012, 05:17 PM   #46
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Glad to hear that your cousin is safe. Good reason not to keep a gun in the glove compartment.
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Old January 3, 2012, 06:22 PM   #47
MLeake
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TexasJustice7, I didn't say Hondas were the target du Jour. According to insurance reports I read in the press back around 2004, they were and had been the top targets, along with Toyota Corollas.

What I will bet is that the reports you found said that most cars stolen were common types, and not particularly high-end examples of the type.
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Old January 3, 2012, 06:43 PM   #48
TexasJustice7
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MikeLeake: What I will bet is that the reports you found said that most cars stolen were common types, and not particularly high-end examples of the type.
I actually did not recall your post on that. I read Marine13's post, and googled "carjacking" + "frequent cars" or something like that, and one website said that the most frequent car "carjacked" was fords, but another site, said carjackers don't pick any one kind. I don't know if that info I saw was current or not. I personally have never owend a Honda, don't own a Corolla either but I have owned Toyotas.

I figure that carjackers don't pick a particular brand to carjack, as it is more likely a crime of opporunity, whoever happens to be driving by. I have also owned a fords and cherolets. There are not as many carjackings in rural areas or at least I don't think there is as there are in big cities like Dallas.
I don't go to big cities because I hate driving in the traffic, if I can avoid it.
I figure no car is safe from them, regardless of the brand. And although I
live in Texas, I have never owned a pickup truck.
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Old January 3, 2012, 09:27 PM   #49
Ruark
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But I keep my smart keys under my shirt not visible. He will need them if I have a chance to kill the engine.
Definitely an idea, with these modern cars. You could get out of the car and run like hell, maybe even push the "Alarm" button on your remote. By the time he figures out the engine's off, you're long gone, or inside a store or something.

Another method of carjacking is the "bump." You're sitting at a red light and a car rolls up and bumps you from behind. The driver gets out, acting very concerned, looking and frowning at the cars, etc. You get out and walk back and pow, he pulls or shows a piece and you're carjacked. A year or so back a woman was carjacked in exactly this manner. They took her somewhere and raped and murdered her.
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Old January 3, 2012, 09:54 PM   #50
GaryH
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One way to look at it is that if you have the ability to take a bad guy out and elect not to do so, you may be somewhat responsible for the person they kill next time they try to steal something when the person moved too slow.
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