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Old January 2, 2012, 02:04 AM   #1
Evil Monkey
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I don't like tilting barrels*.

They are an example of poor engineering. They force you to have to also design the extractor to have a straight edge, therefore reducing the amount rim area the extractor can grab onto. These pistols tend to have problems with steel cased ammo and tougher springs often times don't help.

I understand these pistols are designed for using brass cased ammo, I don't see why an engineer would purposely skimp out on a design just because it's going to feed predominately one type of ammo.

Don't make no sense to me. Anybody agree?

* Tilting barrel locked breech design invented by John Browning. Not the tipup barrels used on some blowback pistols which allow loading the chamber without racking the slide.
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Last edited by JohnKSa; January 2, 2012 at 09:25 PM. Reason: Clarification .
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Old January 2, 2012, 02:23 AM   #2
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Quote:
They are an example of poor engineering.
I am sure the engineers at Beretta (who made quite a few successful tilt-bareel designs) knew a thing or two. I'd trust them. But they also designed them for a different time and age, so not everything you want to do today may be the the same conditions that they were designed for.
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Old January 2, 2012, 02:29 AM   #3
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One of the benefits of the Beretta 86 was that it could be operated by people who had difficulty cycling the slide on other autos.


But Beretta stopped making them...
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Old January 2, 2012, 02:44 AM   #4
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the beretta M9 and Px4 both have non-tilting barrels.

The M9 uses a tilting locking block, instead of a tilting barrel. The Px4 uses a rotating barrel.

I believe both to be appropriate in terms of engineering.
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Old January 2, 2012, 03:00 AM   #5
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I think youre off the mark countzero...
Im still shopping for an 86 though!

I love when i have my pistol in slide lock and someones like, dude, i think your gun is broke.
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Old January 2, 2012, 03:20 AM   #6
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The tilting barrel is an elegant design. It's very simple, and allows for a locking mechanism with minimal extra parts.

You are overexaggerating their difficulties with ammo. There is a tremendous variety of tilting barrel pistols, and many of them have no particular difficulties with extraction.
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Old January 2, 2012, 03:58 AM   #7
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Tilting barrels work just fine, and have done so for over 100 years now. When properly designed and set up they can run just fine with any ammo. Take Glock for example. You won't find too many people complaining about them having trouble feeding different types of ammo, and yet they utilize a tilting barrel design.
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Old January 2, 2012, 04:32 AM   #8
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Quote:
The Px4 uses a rotating barrel.
The full-size and compact use a rotating barrel, the subcompact PX4 uses a more conventional tilting barrel lockup.
Quote:
I don't see why an engineer would purposely skimp out on a design just because it's going to feed predominately one type of ammo.
In my opinion, that's an overly simplistic summation of the tilt barrel design cost/benefit analysis.

There are a number of advantages to the tilt barrel designs, just as there are some disadvantages. That's true of every locked breech design I'm aware of. That's typically the way engineering is. You very rarely get something for nothing--usually it's a tradeoff. For everything you want, you usually have to take something you don't want.
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Old January 2, 2012, 05:28 AM   #9
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Honestly, I see the tilted barrel as having the feeding advantage. The other designes do probably permit a tighter bushing though.
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Old January 2, 2012, 05:36 AM   #10
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I think we're talking about two different things here. Do you mean the locked breech, tilting barrel design of John Browning, or a barrel that disengages, and opens to load a round like the Beretta 86 or 21A?
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Old January 2, 2012, 05:40 AM   #11
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Quote:
Do you mean the locked breech, tilting barrel design of John Browning, or a barrel that disengages, and opens to load a round like the Beretta 86 or 21A?
john browning design.
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Old January 2, 2012, 05:43 AM   #12
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That is what I am thinking Pilot. I think we have 2 different conversations here.

I owned a Beretta 21A that I liked quite a bit. Found it to be quite handy at times for unlaoding the weapon in particular. Seems to be a "weak" spot if you were ever in a hand to hand situation with an attacker, if it was bumped and the barrel pops up, your weapon is useless until you reset the barrel, but hopefully they won't get that close in on you.....

But I think that he was talking about john Brownings tilting barrel design Which I believe to be genious...... but what do I know...........

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Old January 2, 2012, 05:51 AM   #13
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No, I really don't agree. I don't even think steel case ammo entered the thought process.

The Russians are big on steel case ammo. Why did they make the Tokarev with a tilt lock design? Oh, thats right they just copied Browning's design. Speaking of copying Browning's design, why do you think so many firearms engineers did copy it Evil? Were they just lazy? Didn't they know you'd be wanting to shoot Wolf or some cheap Chinese ammo?
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Old January 2, 2012, 06:12 AM   #14
Evil Monkey
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Quote:
The Russians are big on steel case ammo. Why did they make the Tokarev with a tilt lock design?
They were using brass cased ammo in that time period.

Some Russian pistols today use either a locking block or rotating barrel because they are chambered in 9x19mm and 9x21mm that use steel casings.
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Old January 2, 2012, 08:00 AM   #15
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The tilting barrel of Browning design is proven strong , reliable and fairly easy to manufacture. Hard to think of a successful commercial or military pistol that doesn't use the Browning design. TT-33 , B-HP , CZ-75 , Sig 210 , and 22x series , Ruger P-series , Star M-28/30.

The Beretta uses the dropping block of the P-38. The blocks , slides and barrels have been known to break. Other than Walther , Beretta and Taurus , can't think of anyone else that uses that design.

Any other design I can think of such as the Luger , Finnish/Swedish Lahti , Italian Benelli B-76 , are all much too complicated and expensive to manufacture , and not as reliable.

The WWII era Astra 600 used a straight blow-back.

BTW , the US made millions of rounds of .45 ammo with steel cases during WWII.
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Old January 2, 2012, 09:32 AM   #16
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What is your firearms engineering experience and from where did you get your degree? What is your better idea? It is easy to sit back and criticize something when you don't have a better alternative it is meaningless.

Extraction isn't the biggest issue with a tilting barrel. Fixed barrel designs like the P7 are typically more accurate. Not to say a tilting barrel design can't be accurate, as they most certainly are accurate. The bottom line, if it was so bad there wouldn't be so many out there and being used successfully.
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Old January 2, 2012, 09:41 AM   #17
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Designing something different just to design something different rarely works out.

The HK pistols were different and worked very well. But no one else copied the systems.

The Colt All-American 2000 was different to be sure as it used a rotary bolt lock-up. It was a total flop!
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Old January 2, 2012, 09:46 AM   #18
C0untZer0
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OK, well forget the Beretta 86 (although I still think it's a neat gun)



HK P7

Fixed barrel = Increased accuracy
Eats all kinds of ammo and runs like a champ.
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Old January 2, 2012, 10:27 AM   #19
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Undoubtedly John Browning is rolling in his grave because someone on an internet gun forum doesn't like his barrel design.
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Old January 2, 2012, 10:36 AM   #20
Evil Monkey
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Undoubtedly John Browning is rolling in his grave because someone on an internet gun forum doesn't like his barrel design
Browning designed this mechanism in a time period where it was silly to think that a casing could be made of anything else except brass.
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Old January 2, 2012, 10:39 AM   #21
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Browning designed this mechanism in a time period where it was silly to think that a casing could be made of anything else except brass.
And to this day, all decent ammo is cased in brass. Are you suggesting it preferable to design a handgun around the cheapest range fodder?
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Old January 2, 2012, 11:02 AM   #22
Evil Monkey
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I'm saying a modern pistol must be able to handle brass, aluminum, and steel casings. Copper ain't cheap like it used to be. If copper continues to be so expensive in the next decade, we may see more aluminum cased ammo being made by different companies, and possibly american steel cased ammo.

The market demands cheap plinking ammunition and it is unable to provide with brass cased ammo.

Therefore, pistols today must be designed in a way to better be able to reliably feed, fire, extract, and eject ammunition that don't use brass as a casing material. This is important, as the vast majority of handgun rounds that are fired are hitting berms, not human beings. For "social" purposes, there will always be quality brass cased ammo. But for training purposes, a pistol must be able to handle different casing material without effecting reliability.
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Old January 2, 2012, 11:10 AM   #23
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Rotating barrel......or rotating bolt

-7-
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Old January 2, 2012, 11:12 AM   #24
MythBuster
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Steel case ammo works just fine in my 1911 and my Glock. It also works just fine in my Sig.

I don't see your problem.
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Old January 2, 2012, 11:19 AM   #25
amd6547
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Same here...I have shot steel case ammo in Glock, 1911, and Tokarev, and never had a jam....
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