The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 30, 2011, 10:40 PM   #51
bluetopper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2005
Location: Paris, TX
Posts: 1,102
The purely American caliber...........44 Magnum.
bluetopper is offline  
Old December 30, 2011, 10:46 PM   #52
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 1,561
Quote:
Secondly, does this conversation even matter? Honestly. For all of you who have had buddies that did use handguns in combat I congratulate them on their service to this country but I guarantee you they make up a small minority. If I have to rely on my sidearm in a war zone I am in one hell of a bad situation. Does that happen? Sure. But the days of WWII are long behind us folks, they just are. The handgun has a certain nobility in the minds of Americans for its use in the past, but the simple fact is that it is far from being vital or even mildly important. I can tell you with 100% certainty that there are far more important questions facing our armed forces at this point in time in regards to many, many other weapon systems that pistol caliber isn't even in the top 100.
I second this notion, to a degree, as a handgun was always a nuisance to me in Iraq... one more thing I had to clean. HOWEVER, there are tight spots in wars overseas, and I'm not talking about being over-run by the enemy. We've cleared several burrows in Afghanistan where we had to send in the skinny guy with a pistol. At any rate, tunnelrat's point is that the pistol is not that widely used in a war zone. I agree. 9mm will probably do, but there are times when a pistol is all that can be used. 9mm is still adequate, but I'd rather have more if I'm limited to ball ammo. I don't know... but if I was the sole decision maker I may would have to stick with 9mm. I just don't see that big of advantage of .40, and there would be a capacity vs power issue with .45. Only reason why .45 gets a big nod over .40 and 9mm power-wise is slower speeds and ball ammo.
5whiskey is offline  
Old December 30, 2011, 10:58 PM   #53
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,362
@5whiskey
And I agree with you on that point. For me given that a handgun is a last line of defense and is more of a desperate measure I would prefer a larger caliber, as if I need as many as 15 rds in a handgun I need to reload my rifle instead. For that purpose I would prefer the 45 but I don't see NATO going to this. The 45 is more of an American phenomenon. I think we're at the point where we might ignore NATO and adopt a 45 for just the US, but NATO as a whole wouldn't change calibers.
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is online now  
Old December 30, 2011, 11:11 PM   #54
Noreaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2011
Location: New England
Posts: 1,326
TRat: Why would this thread get locked out. Spirited debate, thoughtful reasoning and WAG. I find the topic and input to be good show. As far as the few who used a handgun in combat their reasoning seems to be, "if I have to carry it why not make it lighter and more effective with less maintenance," ie; a poly gun with a larger caliber.

Last but far from least if a larger diameter makes them feel better or more confident then why not. The cost of ammo is not going to make a difference in the big picture. Even with the more effective LEO ammunition there is a big push toward 45 acp. Many PDs are switching over.
Noreaster is offline  
Old December 30, 2011, 11:25 PM   #55
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,811
I agree with wymark, anything but 9mm so I can pick up the liquidated surplus.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old December 30, 2011, 11:46 PM   #56
481
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Posts: 469
NATO, if they really are considering a change, oughtta stick with the 9mm (M882) FMJRN. Its higher velocity and narrower cross-section give it an edge over the .45 Auto in penetrating the heavy uniforms and gear worn by opposing forces. After defeating that stuff, it's all about shot placement in the rare occurences where a soldier most rely on his sidearm to protect himself.

If you buy into the M&S OSS books (I, for one, do not), their "stats" (if they really aren't contrived) demonstrate very little difference in effectiveness between the 9mm FMJRN (58-70%) and the .45 FMJRN (57-62%).

Might as well stick with what is in the logistic pipeline.
481 is offline  
Old December 30, 2011, 11:55 PM   #57
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,362
@Noreaster
Prob because every such thread on this topic has eventually been locked because people can't be nice? If I'm wrong hell then great.
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is online now  
Old December 31, 2011, 07:07 AM   #58
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,435
There's also another facet of the NATO pistol caliber that goes unsaid in all these discussions.
The sidearm may or may not be that big of a deal.
The submachine gun OTOH, is a big deal.
What goes in the NATO sidearm also goes in the subguns.

Let's not forget the other two "wars" we're fighting.
The "war" on terrorism and the "war" on drugs.

It's no coincidence that the use of a subgun has increased in the last 40 years worldwide.

I keep going back to my initial response.
The 9x19 is not an accurate enough round for a low cost to manufacture, reliable and highly accurate weapon.
It's possibly the perfect example of the engineering adage of pick any two.
Hal is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 08:11 AM   #59
plouffedaddy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2011
Location: Carolina
Posts: 3,239
My vote goes for sticking with the 9mm but throwing out the b.s. law of war crap that was developed decades ago and go with a quality JHP round. Our MPs have finally been allowed to carry it stateside, maybe one day our politically correct leaders will realize this puts us in danger on the battlefield and make the right decision.

"I support our troops" but not enough to make a decision that might **** off some Europeans in the UN... That's how I hear it anyway.

Edit to the mods---I didn't realize that was a banned word. I apologize.
plouffedaddy is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 10:15 AM   #60
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Most of the big weapons manufacturers view change as synonymous with making money.

On the one hand H&K would be more than happy if NATO "dumped" the 9mm - they get to bid on the contract to replace the thousands and thousands of MP5s out there.



I'm all for getting the troops the best weapon systems money can buy - but this is a money waster IMO. The money would be better spent in so many ways...

Getting more quality snipers and sniper rifles out in the theater would be one suggestion.

Better armor - body armor and hardened vehicles, or give the tooops more Bradleys to drive around in vs the Hummv.

If I were in the field and I had a choice between them spending the money on new pistol trials or just finding a way to support my unit with a MK 19 or a MK 47 - I'd keep whatever old pistol I had and take the grenade cannon.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 10:23 AM   #61
FairWarning
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: GA
Posts: 814
For NATO's purposes with 9mm, I think it's fine in that role. And there are bazillions of 9mm rounds and capable platforms already out there.

Wouldn't bother me to see the US return to .45 ACP, however. Certain groups within the US have already done so, or never left. If they want to insist on having more than 8 rounds, there are numerous highly proven hi-cap .45 platforms these days....including those of the 1911 variety...
__________________
Mauser Werke, Schmidt-Rubin, Remington, Colt, H&K, Weatherby, Browning, Ruger, Marlin, Mossberg, Saiga, S&W, Sig Sauer....a few friends of mine
FairWarning is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 01:06 PM   #62
kgpcr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 944
.40 the 9mm is a joke. why do you think so many LEO's and the FBI got away from it.
__________________
Colt King Cobra .357 Colt Anaconda .44mag
Springfield Armory .45 Double stack Loaded
XD40 service XD45 Taurus 617 .357mag
Smith M&P 40
kgpcr is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 01:18 PM   #63
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 5,624
Take the money you would spend on changing cartridges and apply it to training.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 02:30 PM   #64
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,270
.40 the 9mm is a joke. why do you think so many LEO's and the FBI got away from it.

The FBI got away form the 9mm, because they made a total mess of an operation in miami and made themselves look like armatures. They had to blame something rather than themselves.

The 9mm is the most used handgun ammo fact. It was used by the Germans and other armies in ww2 . Are you seriously saying that the Germans used a ineffective round during ww2 , it is used by most police forces world wide.

So it make it hard to take seriously someone that says it is a joke. They have a right to their view but obviously dont know what they are talking about.
manta49 is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 02:42 PM   #65
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
^

The Miami shootout could have gone better in so many ways,

I have thought that if Jerry Dove had been using FMJ instead of a hollow point, his shot would have probably penetrated at least an additional inch and punctured Michael Platt's heart - killing him, and maybe the 40 S&W would never have been invented. Maybe the FBI would still be using 9mm today.

Just think about it - the regular 115gr FMJ bullets that most people practice with would have done better on that cross-shot than the Silvertip - no fault of the Silvertip, it behaved basically the way it was designed to. It exapanded, it didn't over penetrate.

But basically if the Miami shootout hadn't gone so badly - departments today would probably be using 9mm, .45 ACP, 38 spl and .357 magnum.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 03:01 PM   #66
FairWarning
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: GA
Posts: 814
Quote:
But basically if the Miami shootout hadn't gone so badly - departments today would probably be using 9mm, .45 ACP, 38 spl and .357 magnum.
I think we would have already had .40 or similar by now, although there is no doubt that infamous shooting sped the process up. With all the endless debating, which was greatly accelerated on the internet in the '90s, an alternative was bound to pop up (we've had several actually, but only .40 has been a smash hit).

There have been cases where .45 ACP and even the mightly .357 haven't stopped things right away, but the Miami case was given widespread media attention. The squeaky wheel....
__________________
Mauser Werke, Schmidt-Rubin, Remington, Colt, H&K, Weatherby, Browning, Ruger, Marlin, Mossberg, Saiga, S&W, Sig Sauer....a few friends of mine
FairWarning is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 06:25 PM   #67
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,270
The only reason the .40 was a success over others was that it could be used in existing designs without much modifications.
manta49 is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 06:43 PM   #68
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
There were other attempts both recently and not so recently, to come up with a better handgun cartridge, although none of them were created with the military in mind. Perhaps the closest to the .40 S&W Auto would be the .41 Action Express, which I think was introduced about halfway between the 10mm and the .40 S&W (or 10mm short). But the .41 magnum and the .41 Long Colt were other cartridges for similiar purposes.

It is interesting to speculate on the reasons the 9mm Luger became such a world standard. At the time automatics were being introduced for military use, it was only used by the German armed forces and other than the modified Mauser automatics, no other pistols were chambered for it until I suppose the Browning Hi-Power came along. In fact, at the beginning of WWII, it might have been that the Colt .45 automatic was used as much as 9mm pistols, allowing for the fact that the Germans were preparing for the war and we were only just starting to think about it in 1939.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 06:55 PM   #69
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,270
I think all calibers are a compromise. Cost- power- recoil- accuracy- bullet size- weight ect. The 9mm is so popular world wide because it is the best compromise for handgun and sub-machine guns.

Even people protecting the president agree.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pict545.jpg (32.5 KB, 30 views)

Last edited by manta49; December 31, 2011 at 07:11 PM.
manta49 is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 07:18 PM   #70
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,689
Unless we have a direct source for a study or a call for proposals to do such - can we stop discussiong rumors or pipe dreams?

I won't lock it but I challenge the vox populi to come up with such. Otherwise we suggest all kinds of fantasies. Insult each other at your risk.

I will comment before turning to New Year's fun:

1. The US has bought hundreds of thousands of 9mm handguns and just ordered more.

2. Given budgetary problems in the US and Europe (who are dramatically cutting their armed forces), it is silly to think money would be spent to redo at best a secondary weapon.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 07:51 PM   #71
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,341
Quote:
Handguns don't win wars
Well, if we used .45's, maybe they would. Joe Stalin sure wouldn't have crossed the Oder if we had 'em. Didn't some guy shoot down a Zero with one? Heck, that's real knockdown power. What it knocks down, I'm not sure, but in a magical world where unicorns do all the reloading, I suppose it makes sense to spend billions of dollars on new guns, factory tooling, training, armorer support, and ammunition just to appease someone's sense of nostalgia.

The sheer logistical nightmare is staggering to consider. Really, has anyone here ever tried to find .45 ammunition outside North America? It ain't easy. Even if the 9mm was as woefully incapable of killing anything as some folks claim, there's no real impetus to switch.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 08:06 PM   #72
presspics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2001
Location: NH
Posts: 256
I don't care what NATO uses...The USA on the other hand should go back to the 45ACP.
__________________
"Quid Clarius Astris"
presspics is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 08:09 PM   #73
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
just to appease someone's sense of nostalgia.
Yeah, but grandpa McGoober said in WW2 he saw the .45 ACP flip people upside down and other people would get hit forty times with 9mm and it didn't phase them.

I remember when I was a kid and a Vietnam vet told me he shot a Viet Cong with a .45 ACP and it picked him up and knocked him off his feet. When I got a little older I realized it was a load of horse...feathers.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 10:41 PM   #74
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
I don't think the 40 S&W would have taken off without the FBI doing the testing and adopting it.

A lot of depatments adopted the .40 call because the FBI led the way, in some ways put pressure on departments to follow suite, and of course made it somewhat safe to follow the FBI - if anything ever went wrong they could point to the research the FBI conducted and the conclusions they came to. On the other hand, if they stayed with 9mm and some officer got killed after putting five or six shots into someone - they would have had a long line of detractors asking the department why they didn't learn from the 1986 Miami shootout, and why the department thought they knew better than the FBI when it comes to caliber selection...

With the Miami shootout, the FBI developing their protocol, and adopting the new 40 S&W it caused it to take off. That is the power of the FBI.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old December 31, 2011, 11:44 PM   #75
Mercenary
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 307
5.7mm
__________________
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Thomas Jefferson
Mercenary is offline  
Reply

Tags
caliber , gun , nato , pistol

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13001 seconds with 8 queries