The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 1, 2012, 12:23 AM   #1
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Here is a case where the robbers burst in and just opened fire

A Chicago police officer working a second job as security for the store was killed.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...police-officer

One of the robbers had a Tec-9, the officer drew his weapon but was hit several times and died before he got off a shot.

The store owner elected not to install bullet proof glass, I'm not sure if Officer Lewis had any cover he could have used anyway.

Short of having body armor, I'm not sure what he could have done.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 02:45 AM   #2
Shadi Khalil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2006
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 4,985
I have a lot of family in Chicago who own small businesses and these types of stories make me worry.
Shadi Khalil is online now  
Old January 1, 2012, 03:38 AM   #3
Evil Monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2005
Posts: 573
sometimes you don't stand a chance. All depends on M.O.
__________________
I was at the casino the other day and went to the high rollers table. I asked the dealer 'what's the minimum bet?' He said, "a hundred dollars." I said what's the maximum? He said, "a box of .45"
Evil Monkey is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 11:07 AM   #4
dean1818
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Location: Frisco Texas
Posts: 635
Its a sad occurance, but again proof that criminals ignore gun laws
__________________
An imperfect servant of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus

Buying American made, wherever I still can
dean1818 is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 12:43 PM   #5
bikerbill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2007
Location: Lago Vista TX
Posts: 2,377
Base on their stealing his items only, wondering if it's possible they were targeting him and not the store itself ... might have seen him there on a previous visit, for example. Nothing that scum like this does surprises me anymore ...
__________________
"If all guns were built with mechanisms that kept them from firing when held sideways, we could end gang violence." humorist Frank Fleming
bikerbill is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 01:14 PM   #6
TexasJustice7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2011
Posts: 213
Quote:
Dean1818: Its a sad occurance, but again proof that criminals ignore gun laws
Criminals especially ignore the law in Chicago where law abiding citisens have to rely only on the police. Reminds me of the criminal who was killed by two law officers at a train station in Dallas, back on Dec 7, 2011. That criminal boarded the train to Chicago. Guess he did not realize he was not supposed to be armed in Chicago. Two civilians were in the cross fire, and hit by shots from law enforcement. I refuse to ever go to Chicago.
TexasJustice7 is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 02:53 PM   #7
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 7,109
Quote:
Base on their stealing his items only, wondering if it's possible they were targeting him and not the store itself ... might have seen him there on a previous visit, for example.
That was my thought when I read about this..... somebody linked it in the Wendy's thread to illustrate that "Armed Citizen CCW" does not guarantee a good outcome....... I think that the fact that only cops and robbers in Chicago have guns made this guy a conspicuous target (clean cut guy who regularly hangs out in the local convenience store, must be a cop working security, so he must have a gun...... thugs like guns, and a badge would be a bonus, ergo- he's a target. ....... and this further underlines the point that cops can't protect you, as they can't even protect themselves.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 03:17 PM   #8
Alaska444
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
Scary occurrance. It sounds as if he was the target since they didn't take anything else.There may be more to the story than what we will ever know publicly but it appears like an intended hit, not so much a robbery. Why take his badge? Strange story.

In the Phillipines, for banks, they have a security guard outside with a 12 ga shotgun, and two inside likewise with revolvers and shotguns. The door is locked and the second security guard inside opens and closes the door for each customer with bullet proof glass all around. My brother in law was a bank manager over there. We may end up having to place the same sort of security measures here in the states if episodes like this become more common.
Alaska444 is offline  
Old January 1, 2012, 11:10 PM   #9
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Because of Illinois gun laws, police officers sort of have the market cornered when it comes to hiring armed gaurds.

I don't know how hot it was in the store, but a bullet-resistant vest is the one thing the officer had control over. I don't know where he was shot, but I think a vest would have helped. It is the one piece of equipment that requires no reaction time and very little training on the user's part for it to be effective. The store had been targeted before for robbery, there was a good chance that it would be targeted again - that's why the officer was hired in the first place.

Maybe he made the mistake of thinking that him just being there armed was going to prevent another robbery attempt.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old January 2, 2012, 09:34 PM   #10
SecurityMike
Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2011
Location: Chicagoland, Il
Posts: 35
This happens to a lot of security guards in the area. The bad guys are usually just looking for a gun. They will rob the guard either way but if they look like they'll put up a fight they just shoot. it happened at aldis and then the same guys used that gun to kill and rob another guard at a different aldis.

The bangers in Joliet watch to see where cops live and break into their houses and steal their guns. It happened to two guys I know last year. I make sure to always put a jacket on over my security uniform and make sure my gun isn't visible when I'm walking from my car to my house.

Very scary though. These guys barely have time to get their guns out. It scares me cuz where I work we wear level three holsters and are mandated to keep the chamber empty. The trade off is that I'm not in A liquor store in the hood, but in an office building.
__________________
"We have repeatedly held that one who is unlawfully assaulted and put in apparent danger of his life or of great bodily harm need not attempt to escape but may repel force with force..." PEOPLE v. BUSH
414 Ill. 441 (1953)
Supreme Court of Illinois.
SecurityMike is offline  
Old January 2, 2012, 09:53 PM   #11
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 7,109
Count, Mike, you guys are on the ground there. In your opinion, would these thugs continue to do this if there was a good chance the only gun there would not be the one their target has?

If there was a strong CCW law law with Florida style legal protections for Citizens using deadly force?

I know the powers that be in Mordor are unlikely to allow this to happen, but if such were the case ..... I think the thugs would be more careful, as I don't see this sort of stuff happening anywhere else.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 2, 2012, 10:22 PM   #12
kilimanjaro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 2,002
If it was not revenge for some prior police work by the off-duty officer, then they just wanted his gun or just wanted to kill. Next time on jury duty, remind me to vote to acquit anyone who kills a bad guy by shooting them in the back while running away, laying wounded on the floor, going back in and reloading, stealing a slice of pizza, whatever anyone wants to call a disproportionate response. I'm giving a very big benefit of the doubt to us decent folks.
kilimanjaro is offline  
Old January 2, 2012, 11:27 PM   #13
SecurityMike
Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2011
Location: Chicagoland, Il
Posts: 35
jimbob,

I definitely think CCW would help in some situations. But in the case of a robbery like this or the ones at Aldis, they are taking places in extremely poor neighborhoods. Usually the process for a CCW license is expensive and requires a clean record and almost anyone that would have been in any of these locations would probably not be able to obtain one.

As for not seeing things like this anywhere else, I think a lot of people severely underestimate just how decimated some of these neighborhoods are. It goes far beyond gun laws on the West and South sides of Chicago, they are completely hopeless. The crime is so rampant that every police officer has calls stacked 5 or 6 deep, and the gangs are recruiting out of elementary schools and literally control the neighborhoods.

TL;DR, Chicago is a warzone.

But obviously stuff like this happens in other places too, where it is far more likely that a potential CCW holder would be present. Such as this recent robbery in a nice suburb about 30 miles southwest of the city: http://plainfield.patch.com/articles/cici
__________________
"We have repeatedly held that one who is unlawfully assaulted and put in apparent danger of his life or of great bodily harm need not attempt to escape but may repel force with force..." PEOPLE v. BUSH
414 Ill. 441 (1953)
Supreme Court of Illinois.
SecurityMike is offline  
Old January 3, 2012, 09:22 AM   #14
Opinated
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2006
Posts: 338
It suggests to me that the robbers came just to steal the weapon from the officer. Perhaps that was the plan in a nutshell.
Opinated is offline  
Old January 3, 2012, 10:25 AM   #15
hangglider
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2011
Posts: 212
SecurityMike--the situation in southern Chattanooga is nearly identical. The difference is it's a much smaller town--but has one of the highest shootings/murder rates in the country. The BGs are very well armed (I hear them doing target practice openly in the city with high-capacity magazines weekly)--I'm beginning to think that having a CCW really is inadequate if you can't go full combat body armor and have a hardened site for defensive position if you live/work in an area like this. The police department recently purchased 30 AR15's to deal with the escalation in violent crime. Once you are targeted by gangs, they are relatively fearless when and where they go after you. If the target is in a crowd--they will shoot indiscriminately into the crowd not caring if others are hit in the pursuit of the target.
hangglider is offline  
Old January 3, 2012, 11:54 AM   #16
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
There was a thread on the increasing militarization of the police - I think it got closed. But I do think it's interesting that the response in Southern Chattanooga - or maybe it's just the most publicized response, is getting more weaponry.


For the shooting in Chicago, I think the fact that they took the officer's badge might have indicated that they intended to pose as a police officer for a subsequent crime - I don't know.

I am not sure CCW law would have deterred this - they were going after an armed person to start with, they would have had to fear that the clerk would also be armed and would open fire, and it sounds to me like they were prepared to kill anyone in the store who gave them any trouble.

I think the two issues it raises with me is making yourself a target for crime with open carry and again - the issue of the utility of body armor.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old January 3, 2012, 01:47 PM   #17
hangglider
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2011
Posts: 212
A well-liked sergeant, father and long-time veteran of the force was engaged and killed by an itinerant last year who had an assault rifle and was wearing body armor. I know there are at least a couple of AK/SKS's in the hood being fired--I just hope the AR's the police get are up to the task.
hangglider is offline  
Old January 3, 2012, 03:16 PM   #18
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,842
Quote:
At a press conference today, Chicago Police Department Supt. Garry McCarthy said that both of the offenders were armed, one with a pistol and the other a weapon that appeared on video to be a TEC-9. He also said that Lewis, who was standing behind the counter, drew his own weapon and was "subsequently shot."
I'm sorry - the original story doesn't say they came in shooting. Did I miss that? I could have.

If they came in and he drew - that's a different take.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 3, 2012, 03:29 PM   #19
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Obviously it's all speculation, but it sounds like a major failure of Situational Awareness.

"Both offenders were wearing masks when they entered the location...."

How do you not arm yourself when two masked individuals approach the store?

It SEEMS like he must not have been paying much attention.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old January 3, 2012, 03:37 PM   #20
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,842
With no disrespect, obvious drawing is a mistake. One gets to cover or concealment (at best). Drawing in the open against drawn guns is risky.

Now, I've seen it done if the gun holder is distracted or freezes in training. In the real world, may not be the first plan. You would need to outside their awareness.

Hindsight of course is always better than foresight with the front sight.

So is there another report that shows they walked in shooting. If not, I wish that folks wouldn't overinterpret incidents.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 3, 2012, 03:49 PM   #21
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
I suppose it all depends on our assumptions of the lay-out of a typical store and the assumed position of a security guard. I've never seen a convenience store with armed security (or unarmed security) but if our typical store layouts had armed security, and he was in a logical place for security to be, he would be able to see the approach of masked individuals and prepare himself accordingly.

The problem with interpretations. Each of our assumptions naturally supports our conclusions.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old January 3, 2012, 09:09 PM   #22
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
Quote:
"The officer didn't stand a chance in this case. He did everything he could," McCarthy said. "Both offenders were wearing masks when they entered the location. One of the two offenders immediately turned and started firing at Officer Lewis. And Officer Lewis engaged that individual ... and was subsequently murdered."
That makes it sound like BGs walked in, immediately started firing, officer drew, officer was shot.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old January 4, 2012, 08:43 AM   #23
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,568
Quote:
Obviously it's all speculation, but it sounds like a major failure of Situational Awareness.

"Both offenders were wearing masks when they entered the location...."

How do you not arm yourself when two masked individuals approach the store?

It SEEMS like he must not have been paying much attention.
Let's see. People often do wear masks during colder weather. It isn't going to be prudent or practical to draw your gun and seek cover every time a masked person comes in your store during the winter time.

People approaching the store are often engaged in conversation such that you might not see their faces until they enter.

It is rather difficult to have total situational awareness both inside the store and outside the store when you are also tasked with other duties.

And oh yeah, maybe just maybe it was because Clifton Lewis didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of seeing much outside of the store because the front windows are plastered with advertisements.
http://maps.google.com/maps?rlz=1T4T...ed=0CCIQ8gEwAA

From what is described, it doesn't sound like he was slow on spotting the threat at all.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old January 4, 2012, 02:06 PM   #24
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,842
Why would he immediately turn and fire at Lewis?

Was he identifiable or did he take an action which drew attention to himself with people who already had drawn guns?

We need an exact description or else, we are slinging speculation.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 4, 2012, 05:46 PM   #25
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
As I'm starting to mull this over, I think McCarthy was making more of an emotional appeal rather than giving a factual account of what he knew. Although another witness in the store said in another story that Lewis "never had a chance."

I wish they would release the video - maybe they will if they either run out of leads or catch the murders.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13295 seconds with 9 queries