The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 26, 2011, 10:40 PM   #1
jcools
Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2011
Location: S.E. Mi
Posts: 34
44 mag vs 45 lc

I know this has probablly been beat to death.But I'd like to hear your opinions and experience.I'd like to get a large Cal SA revolver(ruger).As well I'd eventually like to get a matching Cal levergun. I already have (and reload for) a couple DA 357's. I've read that (if you reload) the 45lc can exceed the 44mag. And the 44 is better if you don't reload. So, which is better?I.e. accurracy,knockdown,range,and cost (even if you reload) Thanks
jcools is offline  
Old December 26, 2011, 10:47 PM   #2
Alaska444
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
Quote:
Today, 07:40 PM #1
jcools
Junior Member

Join Date: June 7, 2011
Location: S.E. Mi
Posts: 14
44 mag vs 45 lc
I know this has probablly been beat to death.But I'd like to hear your opinions and experience.I'd like to get a large Cal SA revolver(ruger).As well I'd eventually like to get a matching Cal levergun. I already have (and reload for) a couple DA 357's. I've read that (if you reload) the 45lc can exceed the 44mag. And the 44 is better if you don't reload. So, which is better?I.e. accurracy,knockdown,range,and cost (even if you reload) Thanks
Yup, beat to death over and again, but why not, it is a great topic. Bottom line, personal preference is probably the deciding issue for most folks.

I went with the .44 magnum and the Ruger SRH because I can get near .454 Casull with the Buffalo Bore 340 +P+ rounds as my anti-bear rounds. .45 LC is a great choice but I don't know of any max rounds that approach the BB 340 gr.

Quote:
Heavy .44 Magnum +P+ Ammo - 340 gr. L.F.N. - G.C. (1,478 fps/M.E. 1,649 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box

NEW HEAVY 44 MAGNUM +P+
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...ct_detail&p=54
Alaska444 is offline  
Old December 26, 2011, 10:49 PM   #3
Shotgun693
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2011
Location: Poteet, Texas
Posts: 959
They cost about the same. You can load the .44 Mag hotter, it'll have more knock down than the .45Colt. If you want a hotter shooting gun in a lever action rifle or SA revolver then go with the .44. I used to carry a .44 Mag at work. I now carry a .45 Colt when my Boss let's me. For Police work or hunting anything in South Texas the .45 is plenty.
Shotgun693 is offline  
Old December 26, 2011, 11:20 PM   #4
jcools
Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2011
Location: S.E. Mi
Posts: 34
Which is better for hunting? Is the "hotter" 44 more powerful than the bigger 45?
jcools is offline  
Old December 26, 2011, 11:38 PM   #5
pendennis
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2009
Posts: 572
How many angels will fit on the head of a pin?

That's what the argument is about.

Both are great. After cartridge makers did away with balloon-head cases, it's come down to the sturdiest frame, and how much one wants to receive in punishing recoil.
pendennis is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 12:39 AM   #6
Alaska444
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
Quote:
Today, 08:20 PM #4
jcools
Member

Join Date: June 7, 2011
Location: S.E. Mi
Posts: 15
Which is better for hunting? Is the "hotter" 44 more powerful than the bigger 45?
With the Ruger SRH, you can get near .454 levels. That is not done with any loads I have seen for the .45 LC. So yes, to answer your question, you can get more than the 45 LC. See Buffalo Bore for both max loads to make your comparison. In usual loads, they are essentially about equal. High end goes to the .44 magnum.
Alaska444 is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 12:55 AM   #7
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shotgun693
You can load the .44 Mag hotter, it'll have more knock down than the .45Colt.
Oh really, and exactly how do you figure that?

With a Ruger Blackhawk, Redhawk, Contender, Freedom Arms and whatever else is rated for +P .45 Colt the .45 and .44 are about the same with bullets up to 300 grains, only the .45 does it with less pressure. After 300 grains the old Colt wins. You might want to read the article below.

Gun Notes: The .45 Colt - Dissolving the Myth, Discovering the Legend
by John Linebaugh


My .45 Colt Blackhawk, I've got those 250 grain XTPs loaded over 27 grains of H-110. I wouldn't try that with a .44 magnum if I were you.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is online now  
Old December 27, 2011, 01:04 AM   #8
Alaska444
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
If we look at max loads available, the .44 tops the .45 LC.

Quote:
Heavy .44 Magnum +P+ Ammo - 340 gr. L.F.N. - G.C. (1,478 fps/M.E. 1,649 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...ct_detail&p=54

Quote:
Heavy .45 Colt +P - 325 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N.(1,325fps/M.E.1,267 ft.lbs.) - 20 Round Box
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...ct_detail&p=38

Colt .45 is a great round, but taking both to the max limits, .44 magnum tops it in the right type of revolvers such as what Ruger makes.
Alaska444 is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 01:36 AM   #9
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
340 grain +P+ .44

Thats something all right, what powder they are using? I wonder if its that new Alliant Power Pro MP? Its certainly not H-110/296. The pressure has to be tremendous, it might prematurely wear out even a Ruger. Of course you probably couldn't stand to shoot too many of them. I'd like to see what the could do with a 340-350 grain .45 Colt bullet and that powder. I bet they could get real close to the same velocity with less pressure.

PS: I'd also like to see some independent chrongraphing of that load. I'm not saying they're lying, I'm just saying.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is online now  
Old December 27, 2011, 01:57 AM   #10
Alaska444
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
I read on another thread some time back on another gun website that they push it to 48,000 CUP and the man that developed the load has placed over 5000 rounds through his standard Redhawk .44 magnum with no problems noted in that same gun. Not sure if I will be able to find that reference or not.
Alaska444 is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 02:01 AM   #11
Alaska444
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
Quote:
I also e-mailed BB this morning for a clarification of their +P+ designation and have just received the following response directly from BB:

"When the original 44 mag. Remington ammo was released in 1956, it was using a 240gr. bullet at over 1500 fps out of a 6.5 inch S&W. The pressure was running over 50,000 CUP, even though it was specked at much less. It consistently shot those older S&W revolvers loose, but it did not shoot the Ruger revolvers loose--not even close. Since those days 44 mag. ammo has really been watered down by SAAMI.

Our +P+ 44 mag ammo is NOT SAAMI spec as it runs much higher pressures. That ammo is running 48,000 CUP to 50,000 CUP. It will not hurt the post 1989 (endurance package) S&W revolvers, nor will it hurt the Ruger Super Black Hawks, nor will it hurt any of the other revolvers we include on the warning label.

I have a standard Redhawk here at the factory that I originally used to develop that load. That Red Hawk has at least 5,000 rounds of that very +P+ load through it and is as tight today as it was 20 years ago.

Soon we will have a new warning label on that +P+ ammo that will reflect the use of more revolvers than the current warning label does. It should be noted that any/all ammo is hard on guns and shooting any/all ammo wears guns out. However, our +P+ 44 load will wear out any revolver faster than the normal pressure stuff. Hope this helps you some.

Tim"
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=148664.0
Alaska444 is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 02:31 AM   #12
Sheikyourbootie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2010
Posts: 343
It's not up to the Buffalo Bore 340 grain 44 mag +P+ but here are some results with 45 Colt out of a Ruger 7 1/2" Blackhawk: 325 Grain LFN and 325 Grain Hollow point...each loaded to 1100 fps with HP-6 and penetration/expansion evaluated into rubber mulch. The rounds on the right are with 23 grains H-110 at 1300fps (I have loaded to 1400fps but accuracy suffered) Slug on lower left was 158 grain .357 for comparison.



In a Ruger, the 44 can be loaded hotter. To what end? The animal getting hit will be just as dead with either, so long as they are hit in the right place.
Sheikyourbootie is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 02:55 AM   #13
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
I'm not convinced that the big heavy flat nose penetrates better, or does more tissue damage as the Keith type anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure a 340 grain LFN in the same spot as a 325 grain Keith type would work. However, old Elmer tried the LFN and found it not as efficient. Somewhere, if I can find, a modern test exists where the lighter Keith type 250-265 out penetrated the heavier 300+ grain LFN.

Its been proven that a .429 250 grain Keith type @ 1200-1400fps will crack a brown bear's skull, or shoot through most any north American game. So I'm feel like Sheikyourbootie does, that is you can load the .44 Magnum and .45 Colt hotter and with even heavier bullets, but why and to shoot what.

In the Linebaugh article I linked to in my first post, he states that his wife's 260 grain Keith type .45 Colt load, which has an initial velocity of 900 fps, will shoot lengthwise through an antelope at 100 yards. So I don't imagine a 265 grain Keith .45 bullet at 1400 fps would have any trouble penetrating on a moose, bear, etc.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is online now  
Old December 27, 2011, 03:00 AM   #14
Biff Tannen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2010
Location: Hill Valley
Posts: 256
To the "Negative Nancys"

To all those who wait for forums like this to post comments such as, "Oh jeez, this has been talked about to death..."
Please re-evaluate your negativity.
I learn something new everytime one of these debates comes up.
Theres always new ammo, new guns, new purposes for shooting, and always something new to learn.
__________________
- BIFF TANNEN -
The great-grandson of Buford "Mad Dog" Tannen.
Biff Tannen is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 09:55 AM   #15
bossman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 996
Quote:
I've read that (if you reload) the 45lc can exceed the 44mag. And the 44 is better if you don't reload.
I think what people are saying, if you buy bullets local and not online the 44 mag is hotter than the 45 Colt. Most 45 Colt loads you see around are cowboy loads and aren't the real deal.

I love the 45 Colt and if you reload you can get that baby a humming. It's more than enough for deer hunting, with even store bought rounds.
__________________
NRA life member

When the going gets tough, I just open another beer.
bossman is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 10:18 AM   #16
Rifleman1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
I have, and would choose again, the .44 magunum in a Ruger wheelgun.
The .44 mag. case is designed for higher pressures. The .45 lc is weaker by design.
The .44 mag. can be loaded down to mild levels making it very easy to shoot a lot. Or it can be loaded way up making is very unpleasant for the critter at the receiving end. Meaning far more versitile and almost any other caliber pistol round out there.
I shot and reloaded mine many-many thousands of round and would not change a thing.
Lever guns are available in both calibers although I just don't see the point. I had one for my .44 and soon sold it, my Ruger shot like a rifle with practice. And I really enjoyed the practice.
Rifleman1776 is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 10:25 AM   #17
rclark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2009
Location: Butte, MT
Posts: 1,611
Some comments from someone that has been there an done that : Ross Seyfield on .45 Colt

I like my .45 Colt revolvers (it makes a bigger hole), but both with do the job for what animals you might hunt here on the North America continent or for woods self defence.

Quote:
The .45 Colt is weaker by design.
Myth. It is not weaker. Just up until the early 70s, there wasn't a revolver to help it reach it's potential!
__________________
A clinger. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Single Action .45 Colt (Sometimes improperly referred to by its alias as the .45 'Long' Colt or .45LC). Don't leave home without it. Ok.... the .44Spec is growing on me ... but the .45 Colt is still king.
rclark is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 11:26 AM   #18
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
Quote:
The .44 mag. case is designed for higher pressures. The .45 lc is weaker by design.
Did you even read the link? HP White Laboratories pressure tested cases and guns to destruction and conclusively debunk what you say. You, and some others are in the grey area of disbelief because of no experience with these loads.

I am only two steps ahead of you. I have only begun handloading for my mdl 83 45 Colt, so I do not have a bunch of personal data to supply, however, initial loadings by me would seem to indicate that you are wrong, and Linbaugh is right.

It's all about the guns. Older 45 Colts had oversize chambers. This allows, nay, forces the brass to be overworked and stretch beyond it elasticity limit and it splits prematurely...Get a modern gun with more precision chambers and it will support your brass and allow you reach the performance levels that these big bore guru writers talk about.

I have taken 300 grain slugs to 1401 fps in my 7.5" SBH 44 Mag. I'll be back this summer with my 45 Colt data and pics of my blown up mdl 83 (sic)
Edward429451 is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 01:25 PM   #19
Idahoser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2005
Location: West TN
Posts: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcools
I've read that (if you reload) the 45lc can exceed the 44mag. And the 44 is better if you don't reload.
because you can find useful .44 Mag cartridges for sale, even though they're very expensive. It can be difficult to find useful (other than cowboy action shooting) .45 Colt cartridges for sale at any price.
Quote:
So, which is better?I.e. accurracy,knockdown,range,and cost (even if you reload) Thanks
you CAN get more power from the .45 but you won't find a lot of .44 Magnum guns that should be babied; you WILL find .45 Colt guns that you will kill if you've done that with your cartridges. If you need more power than .44 Magnum I would not recommend .45 Colt as the place to get it, for that reason. Go with .45/70 or .454 Casull or something if you need that.
Idahoser is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 01:32 PM   #20
Sheikyourbootie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2010
Posts: 343
Quote:
Idahoser, ...you WILL find .45 Colt guns that you will kill if you've done that with your cartridges.
That is why the cast bullet I use for those loadings (when crimped in the crimp groove) is WAY too long to chamber in anything other than a Ruger. If these were to be stuffed into my friends SAA...the cylinder won't turn.
Sheikyourbootie is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 01:38 PM   #21
WIL TERRY
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2000
Location: BLACK HILLS
Posts: 1,118
THERE ARE TWO THINGS IN THIS ARGUMENT THAT ARE OF PRIME IMPORTENCE.
THE 45COLT will do all the 44MAG can do and can do it at one-quarter to one-third less pressure depending upon several things. THE 45COLT is an actual 45 caliber bullet doing all that is possible to do in a big bore sixgun.

THE 44MAG actually uses a .43 caliber bullet [ .429"--.431" ] and that is why you have to really turn up the pressure to get it to perform as a 44MAG sixgun should perform.
Furtheremore simple math will show you that the 45 caliber bullet has a HELL of a lot more frontal impact surface than the so-called .44 caliber projectiles.

OH....Do not forget this either; at the same performance levels the 45COLT has noticeably less felt recoil with none of that nasty barrel snap at the end.

And so it goes...
WIL TERRY is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 01:46 PM   #22
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
I want to add that in light of years of reading on the subject, I firmly believe that if Elmer Keith would have had a .45 Colt pistol available that could handle the pressure that the .44 Special Triple Lock could, he would have gone farther with his .45 Colt experiments.

After all his final .45 Colt load was the 265 grain Keith type loaded with 18.5 grains of 2400(the best powder he had available then), for use in the Single Action Army. Thats a stout load even now. However, it pushes the safety envelope of the SAA and was as far as he could go.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is online now  
Old December 27, 2011, 02:51 PM   #23
Idahoser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2005
Location: West TN
Posts: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheikyourbootie
That is why the cast bullet I use for those loadings (when crimped in the crimp groove) is WAY too long to chamber in anything other than a Ruger. If these were to be stuffed into my friends SAA...the cylinder won't turn.
but not just anybody (even experienced loaders) will be able to look at your 'special' cartridges and understand all that. If you put them in .454 cases they would do the same thing, AND everybody would know it.
Idahoser is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 08:58 PM   #24
jcools
Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2011
Location: S.E. Mi
Posts: 34
Thanks for all the replies, this is an interesting thread. From what I've read so far. Both are neck and neck. There was one issue I didn't give much thought. That was recoil.And from the sounds of it.In comparable "power" it seems the 45 has less recoil.
jcools is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 10:58 PM   #25
Sheikyourbootie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2010
Posts: 343
Quote:
but not just anybody (even experienced loaders) will be able to look at your 'special' cartridges and understand all that. If you put them in .454 cases they would do the same thing, AND everybody would know it.
lol. It won't MATTER if someone understands the cartridges are Ruger only....THEY WON'T FIT! You could have the biggest buffoon on earth trying to stuff these rounds into an antique mint condition Colt SAA...and they simply won't fit. That's why I bought the Ruger only bullet mold, because I won't have any over-pressure loads that would even have a remote chance of blowing up someones gun.
Sheikyourbootie is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14121 seconds with 8 queries