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Old December 25, 2011, 07:57 PM   #26
hangglider
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I'm guessing that if it comes to legal consequences--by letting them know they must leave now and they keep coming it raises the bar for "immediate threat of serious injury or death" I've been advised by a police weapons trainer that although the Kastle doctrine likely works in your favor--don't count on it for "carte blanche."
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Old December 26, 2011, 08:11 AM   #27
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PS...Are you a fan of the world's greatest detective or is your username just a coincidence?
You mean Sherlock Holmes.
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Old December 26, 2011, 08:44 AM   #28
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Quote:
hanglider: I'm guessing that if it comes to legal consequences--by letting them know they must leave now and they keep coming it raises the bar for "immediate threat of serious injury or death" I've been advised by a police weapons trainer that although the Kastle doctrine likely works in your favor--don't count on it for "carte blanche."
We don't have that problem in Texas. The bar is not very high if someone is breaking into your property whether it is your house or your car. If I hear glass breaking in my apartment, the intruder won't hear me dialing the police or making a sound. All he will hear is my CA 44 Spl Bulldog barking at him. I certainly would not want to give away my location inside by making a sound. My 911 call would go in after it was over. I live far way from the police, that he would have the door kicked in before the police arrive to take a report.
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Old December 26, 2011, 10:40 AM   #29
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TexasJustice7, people responding in the manner you just described have shot: their own child, who forgot a house key and tried to sneak in via window; the new neighbor they hadn't met, who got dropped off one or two houses off by his buddies after a night at the bar and thought he was breaking into his own home; thirteen year old burglars; etc.

Advice like yours, if acted upon, might not get people indicted; however, it has good odds of making them the victims of their own consciences for life.
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Old December 26, 2011, 11:13 AM   #30
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Mleake: TexasJustice7, people responding in the manner you just described have shot: their own child, who forgot a house key and tried to sneak in via window; the new neighbor they hadn't met, who got dropped off one or two houses off by his buddies after a night at the bar and thought he was breaking into his own home; thirteen year old burglars; etc.

Advice like yours, if acted upon, might not get people indicted; however, it has good odds of making them the victims of their own consciences for life.
Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree, as I have no children who would be breaking in especially without knocking. Also cannot help it if the parents of a 13 year old did not teach him not to commit burglaries and breakins.

Lots of people don't like the laws in Texas, and can choose to live elsewhere. Lots of people in this country do not like Texas laws on capitol punishment either but those who live in Texas overwhelmingly support those laws. I have no intentions of announcing to an intruder where I am at, since if he is armed he may shoot me as he comes in. I don't control where others live, but I choose to live in Texas and I like it the way it is here. I do not recall reading about anyone shooting a drunk who tried entering the wrong house either since living here for many years. Others who do no live in Texas have to know the laws of the states in which they live and abide by them. I abide by the laws in Texas.
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Old December 26, 2011, 11:35 AM   #31
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In michigan a reasonable person must believe that his life or someone else's is in imminent danger.
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Old December 26, 2011, 12:02 PM   #32
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Joe,

Glad everything worked out for the both of you. Sounds like it was a pretty hairy experience.

I was awakened one time about 2:30 in the morning to some serious pounding on my front door. I grabbed my britches and my 1911 and headed to the closest window to see what the hell was going on. When I looked out I see police cars and an officer standing on my porch. I opened the door and he asked if I could come out and check if anything was missing from our truck. I went out and they had this teenager in the back seat, and my neighbor standing off to one side. The kid had somehow gotten into the truck and had some things piled up but was caught in the act by my neighbor who had just gotten off work. He said as he came down the street he saw the kid climb in the back seat and shut the door real quick. He then called 911 on his cell and walked over and held the kid at gun point until the officers showed up.

Once I let them know what was mine and what wasn't they asked me if I wanted to tell the kid anything, I said hell yes, and walked over to the open door. I told him he was damn lucky, and that he should use this experience as something to learn from and move forward with his life. He should know now, and always remember, that this could have just as easily have been his last moments on this earth, and what ever he was getting out of the cars was simply not worth it. I told him he was lucky that my neighbor had caught him since this has happened to me in the past and I am not nearly as nice as he is, and he would have been at least on a stretcher hoping he would make, it if not already gone.


This said, to be honest, I would probably not shoot someone in the act of breaking into my car, but telling the kid that scared the crap out of him, and that was the point. Hopefully he realized just how close he was to being a statistic.

Now if someone were coming into the house, teen or not, they will get one warning, my dog,

and if they push that issue, I will not hesitate to use deadly force, no ands, ifs, of buts about it.
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Old December 26, 2011, 06:14 PM   #33
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Good job - consider it your Christmas Present !

May I suggest you also consider how you can harden your house, to make it even less inviting? We don't want to live behind bars, but there are things you can do to make entry more difficult.
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Old December 26, 2011, 07:16 PM   #34
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Law vs conscience.

Quote:
TexasJustice7
We don't have that problem in Texas. The bar is not very high if someone is breaking into your property whether it is your house or your car. If I hear glass breaking in my apartment, the intruder won't hear me dialing the police or making a sound. All he will hear is my CA 44 Spl Bulldog barking at him. I certainly would not want to give away my location inside by making a sound. My 911 call would go in after it was over. I live far way from the police, that he would have the door kicked in before the police arrive to take a report.
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There are 13 year old kids killed midway through an AK-47 magazine fired at U.S. soldiers who still invade the dreams of the (trained and battle hardened) men who killed them.

Texas law is no defense against one's own conscience if you have second thoughts over the death of a kid too young, stupid or peer-influenced to exercise good judgement.

Until you have done it yourself, you simply don't know.

I know from my own experiences that almost every irrevocable act I have taken has always left me with questions.

Not that I would not acquit you, TexasJustice7, if you were charged with excessive use of force and I were on your jury, or would do exactly as you describe in the same circumstances. I would probably be totally on your side.

But I would not expect either of us to survive the experienced unchanged in our hearts. Preparing for that change is also part of what the armed citizen is wise to do.

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Old December 26, 2011, 07:46 PM   #35
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Well, I haven't found out any info on the guy that was arrested other than his name and I have seen his mugshot online. I can't seem to find any info on address, although I did find out that he is 25 years old.

I wonder if the police would give me more info as far as what the guy was claiming he was doing. If he was just a dumb drunk that thought he was trying to get into his own house then I would think about dropping the charges. I know the holidays sometimes bring people down to a point that they normally don't get to. All I know is that we are both fortunate that he didn't get in. Maybe I'll visit the station tomorrow and see what they will tell me.
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Old December 26, 2011, 08:08 PM   #36
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The police report is public information and you are entitled to a copy; at least that is true in most states. Your mileage may vary. You should be able to look up his info on the appropriate court website.
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Old December 26, 2011, 08:22 PM   #37
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Quote:
LostSheep: There are 13 year old kids killed midway through an AK-47 magazine fired at U.S. soldiers who still invade the dreams of the (trained and battle hardened) men who killed them.

Texas law is no defense against one's own conscience if you have second thoughts over the death of a kid too young, stupid or peer-influenced to exercise good judgement.

Until you have done it yourself, you simply don't know.

I know from my own experiences that almost every irrevocable act I have taken has always left me with questions.
I served in vietnam in the Marine Corp, so I know about that. I don't regret having volunteered for that, nor for volunteering for orders to vietnam. Regardless of age, when the enemy is trying to kill us in war it is either we kill them or they kill us. There are many aging veterans of vietnam now getting old. It seems that some of the young thugs want to find elderly victims. There is a lot wrong with me but theres not a thing wrong with my trigger finger. To me, it is not wrong to kill, it is wrong to murder. Murder is the taking of innocent life. If there is a criminal trying to break into my home
I have far more reason to take his life than killing enemy vc in vietnam.
I have not lost a lot of sleep over it and I do not claim post treumatic stress.

Many of the young criminals like to prey upon the elderly and disabled. While I might not shoot a 13 year old for trying to break into my vehicle if I am not in it, if I and my disabled daughter are in it, and he attempts to carjack me, I am going for my gun. Same if he invades my home. A 13 year old breaking into a home or carjacking a vehicle is not innocent. So I would have no regret in either situation. One does what one has to do, whether defending their home, or in combat. I would stop shooting the intruder in either case, when there is no longer a threat.
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Old December 26, 2011, 08:28 PM   #38
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I posted this in jest
Quote:
Should have shot him in the dark before identifying who he was.
Satirizing the "I don't care who dey be, I'mma gunna shoot ehney buddy dat comes in mhy house!" attitude commonly displayed on T&T


Six posts later we get this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasJustice7
If I hear glass breaking in my apartment, the intruder won't hear me dialing the police or making a sound. All he will hear is my CA 44 Spl Bulldog barking at him. I certainly would not want to give away my location inside by making a sound. My 911 call would go in after it was over.
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Old December 26, 2011, 09:27 PM   #39
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He then called 911 on his cell and walked over and held the kid at gun point until the officers showed up.
So, what if the kid had tried to run off, instead of staying in the truck? Would he have shot him?
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Old December 27, 2011, 04:58 AM   #40
Mike / Tx
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So, what if the kid had tried to run off, instead of staying in the truck? Would he have shot him?
You know, we talked about it later on and he said he was just as scared as the kid was. The initial encounter was not what he had expected to have getting off work after a 16hr shift, then coming home to find that.

He said that when he turned the corner onto our street he saw the kid dive into the back seat of the truck and pull the door closed, and at that point wasn't sure how old a person he was. He drove past my house, and stopped just past his which is next door, and was already dialing the phone, before he got out of his truck. When he approached and hit the flashlight the kid simply tried to pretend he wasn't there, so he simply stood there telling him he had a gun on him and to stay right where he was. I only live about 1/2 mile from the station and believe me, when you call and mention anything to do with a gun, they get there seemingly in seconds.

If it had come down to it, he said he doubted he would have shot unless attacked or rushed, regardless of the age of the person he found in my truck. The responding officers had nothing at all bad to say about the way everything was handled, and were very professional about the whole issue.

We are all simply glad it turned out the way it did, verses how it could have.

As to actually having to use deadly force in a situation, I agree it would change my life forever, I would have issues about it. I would however have less grief about protecting myself or my family, from the actual incident, than all of the following liberal press coverage, the distraught family member of the "so called victim", and the issues of possible civil suites, because everyone knows that it's never the crooks fault.
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Old December 27, 2011, 07:16 AM   #41
hangglider
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I'm surprised about this outcome. An idiot kid in a car or truck trying to steal something from a neighbor does not rise to the level of clear and imminent danger of serious injury or death. Things are just things.
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Old December 27, 2011, 09:22 AM   #42
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They arrested him for property damage since they couldn't prove he was trying to get into my house. That seemed pretty obvious to me, but apparently the law favors the criminal.
LOL, the law does not favor the criminal. I am not sure why you thought it was obvious that the drunk was trying to get inside. All you know is that he broke your window and that he was milling about around your car. You said it yourself that you had no indication that the guy was trying to open the door.

Quote:
TexasJustice7, people responding in the manner you just described have shot: their own child, who forgot a house key and tried to sneak in via window; the new neighbor they hadn't met, who got dropped off one or two houses off by his buddies after a night at the bar and thought he was breaking into his own home; thirteen year old burglars; etc.

Advice like yours, if acted upon, might not get people indicted; however, it has good odds of making them the victims of their own consciences for life.
I failed to see anywhere that TexasJustice7's statement included anything about firing blindly or without identifying the target.

There are also cases where a person's own child has broken in for the purpose of doing harm to a parent or where a neighbor kids have broken in to do harm to the occupants. Just because the intruder is family or from the neighborhood does not mean that the intruder is there with good intentions.
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Old December 27, 2011, 09:36 AM   #43
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Merry Christmas, The Police Just Left My House

Joe -

Sounds to me like it ended well. You're safe and the vandal was taken away in cuffs. No shots fired and no injuries, just minor damage to your home.

Well done.
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Old December 27, 2011, 11:19 AM   #44
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DNS, he said he would fire without warning. How would he "identify" a neighbor he hasn't met yet?

I know people who have had drunks show up at the wrong house. I know a guy who dropped a drunk off at a wrong house - a third party gave him a dyslexic address. I know diabetics who get lost and act very strange when low blood sugar strikes.

You would be amazed at how rapidly my mother-in-law has those come on. She no longer drives... Complete disorientation.

TexasJustice7 would not visually "identify" any of these. Shooting without warning could lead to some nasty nightmares. At least in his Vietnam Nam example, people were actually trying to harm him.

It is entirely possible he has a checklist of things he would look for, to help him decide whether to shoot. He hasn't described such, though - he has just said he can shoot, because he is in Texas...
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Old December 27, 2011, 11:43 AM   #45
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Quote:
Mleake: I know people who have had drunks show up at the wrong house. I know a guy who dropped a drunk off at a wrong house - a third party gave him a dyslexic address. I know diabetics who get lost and act very strange when low blood sugar strikes.

TexasJustice7 would not visually "identify" any of these. Shooting without warning could lead to some nasty nightmares. At least in his Vietnam Nam example, people were actually trying to harm him.

It is entirely possible he has a checklist of things he would look for, to help him decide whether to shoot. He hasn't described such, though - he has just said he can shoot, because he is in Texas...
The difference between us is that I live in an fairly dangerous area and in an apartment complex. I know people in law enforcement who say to let go when the door starts to heave. I at least would wait till I saw what I was shooting at. I have no check list. It takes a lot of force to come in my door, there is one way in and one way out, no back door. I will not go thru a checklist, administer a breathalizer test to determine if the intruder is drunk nor an IQ test, nor an age questionaire. While I was doing any of those the criminal might be shooting me. Once they get by me my blind disabled daughter has no defense, and is like a three year old and might be their victim. I will not become a victim to satisfy your sense of fairness with dealing with an intruder, who breaks in my door. I don't fight fair. Thats like saying I would pick up a pipe if the guy has a knife. When I got my permit, I made the decision then if I were ever confronted by an intruder, carjacker, homeinvader, or jihadist, that I would use deadly force to defend myself or my daughter. I don't care what others think or do in that respect. Some would say that one ought to retreat in the home as far as possible. There is no duty to retreat in Texas, so I will stop the bull at the point of entry, not after he breaks in and roams around. As I said in other posts, lots of people do not approve of our laws in Texas. I do and I abide by them. If someone has a teenager that is tempted to break into homes they need to raise him in some other State that is more tolerant of criminals. Someone breaking down my solid door locked with deadbolt locks, is not some drunk who just wondered up to my door and kicks it in. I am no different in this respect than most of the people who live in the area where I live. So as I said, I respectfully disagree on this issue, but you can defend your home however you like. This is the way I will defend mine if someone
comes through my heavy deadbolted door.

Last edited by TexasJustice7; December 27, 2011 at 11:49 AM.
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Old December 27, 2011, 12:07 PM   #46
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TexasJustice7, for the past several years I lived in FL and then GA. Full Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground states. Laws are fairly similar to Texas law, with some exceptions - I would not advise shooting to recover property, for example.

What the law allows and what the conscience will tolerate are not always aligned.

You just said you had no checklist, but then you said your only point of entry was a heavily (by which I assume you mean multiple locks) deadbolted door. That is a checklist of sorts: is this person using brute force on what is obviously the wrong door?

You then added another factor - you have a disabled child behind you, so a safe retreat may not be feasible.

So whether you realized it or not, you have been checking a list.
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Old December 27, 2011, 12:59 PM   #47
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Quote:
MikeLeake: TexasJustice7, for the past several years I lived in FL and then GA. Full Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground states. Laws are fairly similar to Texas law, with some exceptions - I would not advise shooting to recover property, for example.

What the law allows and what the conscience will tolerate are not always aligned.

You just said you had no checklist, but then you said your only point of entry was a heavily (by which I assume you mean multiple locks) deadbolted door. That is a checklist of sorts: is this person using brute force on what is obviously the wrong door?

You then added another factor - you have a disabled child behind you, so a safe retreat may not be feasible.

So whether you realized it or not, you have been checking a list.
There is a reason that management put those multiple locked deadbolted doors in. I do think the laws in Florida and Texas are similar, although I have not studied Florida laws. Too confusing to study all of them unless I plan to go there. I am probably one of the few old vietnam veterans taking care of a disabled daughter, who was premature at birth with many problems.
I cannot retreat from a carjacker if she is in the vehicle as if she were left in a hot parking lot she would not know to get out of the vehicle. Likewise at home if the intruder gets past me, she is defenseless. Thought about buying a home where I live, but as a disabled veteran with health problems I am fearful that I cannot sell the property if I had to move closer to a VA hospital.

Laws vary between Lousiana and Texas as well on deadly force with regard to the castle doctrine. In Lousiana one must be inside the vehicle to use deadly force against a carjacker, but not in Texas. I assume that this is still the case in Lousiana.

My apartment is an advantage with only one door, and entry through a window would be fairly difficult. That means the best place for me to stop an intruder is when he kicks the door down. If there were a fire, however, it is the only reasonable way out. Some people have dogs, so I don't need a dog
to warn me, as they will bark if there is some unusal activity. It would be cheaper to buy than to rent an apartment in this area. While I don't have
a burglar alarm I sleep in front of the deadbolt door with three handguns within reach. I don't think a BG can get past me, but I worry more about
the parking lot. That is one reason I began pocket carry of a 38 in a pocket holster. Can be ready without drawing. One of my brothers, a police officer originally advised me against pocket carry but it works for me. Biggest problem here is not gang activity as much as drug heads, meth labs etc. I do keep a police scanner on, which helps, (originally I got it to listen for police calls one of my two brothers in law enforcement was involved in). Several nights ago one of my police friends I have coffe with in the mornings was called to a location because a man pointed a shotgun at someone outside the store. At the store I meet with my police friend several months ago there was an unsuccesfull robbery. And the apartment complex management has improved things, but at one time this area had lots of
problems with drug activity, prostitution etc. Fortunately there is an onsite
manager, otherwise I would move.
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Old December 27, 2011, 08:39 PM   #48
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LOL, the law does not favor the criminal. I am not sure why you thought it was obvious that the drunk was trying to get inside. All you know is that he broke your window and that he was milling about around your car. You said it yourself that you had no indication that the guy was trying to open the door.
Laugh out loud all you care to. It was extremely obvious to me he was trying to enter the house. You don't break a door window with dead bolt access next to it just for fun. You don't rip the mail box off of the house next to the front door without being agitated that you can't get in the front door because it's locked. Opening the breaker box door just reeks of someone that is funloving and out for a good time. I SAID I WAS ASLEEP AND DIDN'T HEAR THE DOOR KNOB RATTLE!! That doesn't mean it didn't and I believe any reasonable person would assume the same thing I did and that the guy was trying to get in.

The cop told me himself that it was a "book and release". Nothing will ever come of it. You can't force them to pay for the damage, so, how does he not come out a little better than I do? I'm the one with the clean-up and repair. I'm the one that had to deal with the adrenaline overload and lost sleep. He spends the night in the pokey and goes home the next day. Poor kid.
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Old December 27, 2011, 08:54 PM   #49
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Good to hear it was nothing crazy and you reacted appropriately!
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Old December 27, 2011, 11:55 PM   #50
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good thing you were collected during this. I wouldn't have even bothered with clothes personally. He can see me naked for all I care if it makes him stop trying to get in the house. Drunk is drunk, they will do stupid things.
I read an article I think that was posted on here about some guy who tried to break in the door of a couple, he kept trying until he got shot after multiple warnings. he thought it was his own house and ended up dying from the wounds. natural selection works.
in your situation that guy is lucky he didn't get in your house. very lucky to be alive
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