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Old December 25, 2011, 04:45 PM   #26
Cheapshooter
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The forms to BATF and all records mandated by the Feds. for my LGS to keep, when I purchase a gun?
Which includes background check(all info big bro's got on me), type of gun, serial number,date of purchase, etc. etc. that are kept as a matter of record for infinity.
Kept BY THE DEALER!!! not a government agency! At least not legally kept by the government.

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Current destruction of NICS records became effective when a final rule was published by the Department of Justice in The Federal Register, outlining the following changes. Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9(b)(1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day.
Now I'm sure there are plenty of those out there with their aluminum foil foil hats, and conspiracy theories that will continue to insist that there is some giant hidden government storage area with all the information about everything that everyone has ever done. But from a legislative, and legal point, there is no such thing as a federal registration of other than Class III firearms!
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Old December 25, 2011, 05:12 PM   #27
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YEA & How long you lived in Ill.??
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Old December 25, 2011, 05:15 PM   #28
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Cheapshooter wrote: Kept BY THE DEALER!!! not a government agency! At least not legally kept by the government.
Then tell me, how did the FBI agent I talked to on the phone know the make, model and serial number of the firearms I have purchased for the past 20 years?

I’m not making this up folks! I may be a lot of things, but a liar I’m not.
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Old December 25, 2011, 05:18 PM   #29
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All I know about is MI. We are a must register state. If you do not have a Cpl (ccw) you must go to the local PD and get a purchase permit. You then have a few days to use it ( 5 or 10 its been a while) and then return the rev forms to the local pd which go to state pd and they bok the registry. If you have a Cpl, all you have to do is fill out the RI-60 form and take it to your local pd who mails it to the state.
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Old December 25, 2011, 05:25 PM   #30
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Firearms Registration

If you are talking about a handgun, only New York, Michigan and California have handgun registration. California, Connecticut and New Jersey register "assault weapons" and Hawaii and Wash. D.C. register both handguns and long guns. I am told that Maryland registers "assault weapons" automatically through dealer reporting but cannot confirm that.

All manufacturers must keep a record of which firearms went to which distributor. Each distributor must keep a record of which firearms went to which dealer. Each dealer must keep a record of which person purchased which firearm. That is where the trail usually ends. No one reports private sales. In a few states there are no "private" sales they can only sell through a dealer. In private sales a gun could change hands legally 20 times without any records.
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Old December 25, 2011, 05:34 PM   #31
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Long story short, while applying for a C&R License, I had a few conversations with an agent from the FBI. This agent was able to read me a list of all firearms I have bought from a FFL dealer, back at least 20 years.
#1. Why would you have conversations with an FBI aghent when applying for a C&R. It's handled by the BATF! Very simple form, and easy to follow instructions.

#2. With the Federal laws as stated, if an FBI agent could access a national list, why would he divulge it to you?

Are you sure it was an FBI agent, or was it somebody from the Peoples Republic of Illinois? With the laws in your state, I don't doubt that there isn't a list of every firearm, and every bit of ammunition you've ever purchased!
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Old December 25, 2011, 05:34 PM   #32
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I think for sure the Feds know who owns guns. They have a list of things that make you a potential terrorist. Owning a gun is one, if you have more than 7 days of food is another, or if you prefer to pay for things with cash you could be a terrorist.

They don't only track your purchases, they tap your calls and track your movements with your cell phone. The patriot act gives them this power and more.

Tomorrow, the 26th our awesome president will sign another law that will let these suspected terrorists disappear forever without a trace or a trial.

America today is totally different than it was 10 years ago.
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Old December 25, 2011, 09:02 PM   #33
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Cheapshooter wrote: #1. Why would you have conversations with an FBI aghent when applying for a C&R. It's handled by the BATF! Very simple form, and easy to follow instructions.

#2. With the Federal laws as stated, if an FBI agent could access a national list, why would he divulge it to you?

Are you sure it was an FBI agent, or was it somebody from the Peoples Republic of Illinois? With the laws in your state, I don't doubt that there isn't a list of every firearm, and every bit of ammunition you've ever purchased!
Okay, long story short, but a bit longer. My name got flagged as a felon when applying for the C&R. The BATF told me the best way to clear it up would be talk with the FBI. So that’s what I did. Didn’t make sense to me, but that’s what I did.

The FBI agent was a female. During our conversation I told her that if I was indeed a felon, I never would be able to buy a firearm in Illinois because I wouldn’t have the Illinois FOID card. She looked me up and found that I indeed had a valid Illinois FOID card and started reading off a list of firearms I had bought, starting with one I just bought a couple months earlier for my daughter, a NEF 20 gauge shotgun. I don’t think she meant to divulge this information to me, as she was also talking with someone else that must have been in her office area. To be honest, she sounded a bit ditsy, or maybe was a rookie.

It was an Illinois based FBI office in Chicago that I called, but that makes little difference. I’m very sure all FBI agents have access to all data recorded country wide.

I doubt they know about any ammo purchases, because nothing is recorded to buy ammo, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they did.
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Old December 25, 2011, 09:34 PM   #34
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That makes me think that she possibly had access to the records kept by the state of Illinois. I think your story would be of great interest to many in the fight for gun rights if it could prove that a national registry exists. That would be right up there with Fast and Furious type actions.
Maybe try contacting the NRA, and Second Amendment Foundation to give them all the details you have. I'm sure if you convince them of your experience they would be very interested!
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Old December 25, 2011, 09:53 PM   #35
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When you buy a gun where a background check is required, like here in Texas, a call is made to the FBI to check you out. If you really believe they don't keep records I think you are fooling yourself. No, the gun isn't "registered" but it is on record somewhere.
They may keep records that an instant check was done on you, but the FFL doesn't give them the information on the firearm you purchased. At best they would know that you purchased (or attempted to purchase) a firearm and maybe the general type (handgun or long gun) of firearm you purchased.

If you have a CHL in TX, they don't even do the NICs.
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...Illinois FOID card. She looked me up and found that I indeed had a valid Illinois FOID card and started reading off a list of firearms I had bought, starting with one I just bought a couple months earlier for my daughter, a NEF 20 gauge shotgun.
Let me guess, Illinois requires registration and keeps the records accessible via your FOID.

That's a state issue, not a Federal issue. The fact that a federal agent can access state records for a state that requires gun registration does not prove that registration is happening everywhere.
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I think you would be very nieve to believe that 'big brother' dosn't keep track of names that get a background check with every set of serial numbers next to it but by all means, dont let me burst the bubble your living in.
The reason we know that they don't do it is that serial numbers are not provided with a NICs Check. Ask any FFL.
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Which includes background check(all info big bro's got on me), type of gun, serial number,date of purchase, etc. etc. that are kept as a matter of record for infinity.
The forms are kept by the FFL until he goes out of business. After that they are kept IN PAPER FORM by the BATF. They can be legally accessed by law enforcement to perform "reverse traces" but not for registration purposes.
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All manufacturers must keep a record of which firearms went to which distributor. Each distributor must keep a record of which firearms went to which dealer. Each dealer must keep a record of which person purchased which firearm. That is where the trail usually ends. No one reports private sales. In a few states there are no "private" sales they can only sell through a dealer.
That's how traces work. Starting with a make and serial number, LE can call the manufacturer to determine which distributor took delivery of that gun. They then use FFL records (including 4473's) to determine who eventually purchased the gun in question. The traces are done starting with a gun, and only when a gun turns up that has been used in a crime.
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A properly cleaned drop gun is usually untraceable.
"Drop guns" and other illegal activities are not topics for discussion on TFL.
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Old December 25, 2011, 09:58 PM   #36
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As has already been stated, in Michigan you must register your handgun. I'm not familiar with the procedure that is required if you have a CCW but for a regular individual, you need to get a purchase permit from the PD - usually your county sheriffs dept. unless you live in a city with a PD - that is good for I believe ten days - the permit is taken to a dealer and upon purchase, the permit is returned and the weapon registered. An individual can sell to an individual, but the buyer must acquire a purchase permit which is then filled out by the seller. Seller retains one of the four parts and the buyer then has to take the permit back to the PD.

This is supposed to prevent two things - 1 - the person obtaining the purchase permit it "run" for a criminal background and if anything shows up, they are denied and 2 - the serial numbers of the weapon are "run" to check if it is stolen. While a person may grumble about it - it is really no big deal and there is no cost. Yes, the weapon is registered but at some point, it has already been registered through the FFL process. The only exception to this are perhaps "estate type handguns" - ex. - one that was brought back from the service or one that is old enough to have not passed through the FFL process.

I had a pistol given to me in the 60s that was brought back by a Navy piolot after WW II. I was going to sell it and in order to do so, had to register it. I told the girl the story behind it and she ran it through as an "estate" gun. I had to fill out a purchase permit and she ran the serial # it came back as having a clean background. I then took it to a gun dealer to sell on consignment and had to fill out the proper papers transferring ownership to him so that it was liquidated under his FFL. Again - no big deal.

Now - had I not registered the handgun that was given to me and I was transporting it to a range to shoot and for some reason got stoped by PD and I had to tell them if I had any weapons. I know that the serial # of the handgun would have been "run" and when it came back as being unregistered - and my Driver's License says I am a resident of Michigan - I could be charged with possession of an unregistered handgun.

I have never had a problem in obtaining a purchase permit nor have I ever been hassled by any officer when I went to apply for a permit or when I dropped one off after a purchase. As one officer explained to me one time - he didn't like the idea of an individual having to register a handgun either - but - every once in a while one comes through that was stolen. The process can not only help track things back and hopefully get the person/s responsible for the theft but it can also assist in getting the stolen weapon back to its rightful owner.

Let's face it. Almost every handgun is already registered through the FFL process with the execption of some that have slipped through such as "service bring backs". That's the requirement in Michigan and so be it. If the process keeps a handgun out of the hands of a convicted felon (which in Michigan, a convicted felon cannot have a handgun - yea, yea - he's done his time, so what? - That's the law and the convicted felon knows it, whether he's served his time or not knows it so keep your nose clean or don't com cryin') or preventss a stolen weapon from traveling further and maybe being returned to its rightful owner, then I don't have a problem with it.
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Old December 25, 2011, 10:01 PM   #37
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Thanks JohnHSa for a through explanation.
Sometimes I think it boils down to governments, local, state, and federal, supporting rumors of gun registration just to discourage some people from buying guns!
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Old December 25, 2011, 11:34 PM   #38
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"Drop guns" and other illegal activities are not topics for discussion on TFL.
Unsavory, granted.

Alas you don't address the points I made. Strange, that.
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Old December 26, 2011, 12:20 AM   #39
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Alas you don't address the points I made. Strange, that.
That guns can often be traced even though there is no registration at the federal level?

I did address that, even went through a quick overview of the process.
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Old December 26, 2011, 12:46 AM   #40
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registraion

appears everybody has forgotten the (anti)patriot act the DHS has been monitoring gun purchases since they been up and running after 9/11
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Old December 26, 2011, 01:08 AM   #41
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No, I haven't forgotten that at all.

First of all, the special DHS reporting only applies in certain areas--only four states.
Second, it only applies to certain rifle purchases.
Finally, and most importantly, it only applies to multiple purchases within a short amount of time from the same dealer.

That said, it is worth pointing out that multiple gun purchases in a short amount of time from the same FFL dealer is one way to make sure that the federal government gets more information than normal reported to them about your firearm purchases.
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Old December 26, 2011, 01:53 AM   #42
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First of all, the special DHS reporting only applies in certain areas--only four states.
Which ones? I used the Google machine but couldn't find the answer.

Quote:
That said, it is worth pointing out that multiple gun purchases in a short amount of time from the same FFL dealer is one way to make sure that the federal government gets more information than normal reported to them about your firearm purchases.
Found out about this recently. Was news to me.
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Old December 26, 2011, 02:03 AM   #43
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It's the states that border on Mexico. TX, CA, AZ, NM. The ostensible reason for the extra reporting requirement was to make it harder for people to illegally purchase guns to take across into Mexico.
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Old December 26, 2011, 02:48 AM   #44
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Cheapshooter : ; told you exactly right. As long as you don't live in Wash DC, New Jersery, New York, Illinois, California and apparently Wisconsin ... or any other state that have "state registration " requirements of handguns.

All the regs I've seen say the FFL are required to keep the 4473 form for 20 yrs and they can then be destroyed, and go to ATF only if they go out of business before that. NICS checks, don't keep record of what gun you are buying.

If you believe this not to be true, and you don't live in the above states, then .... HOW does a gun get registered when I do a private sale to YOU ? I'm not calling them and doing squat. I don't have to keep your name, a record of the sale, nor anything about you.... other than you were lawfully legal to own the firearm.

What about, in states like mine , where ATF states "if we show we have a valid and current CC permit, they do not even do a NICS check" ??? There is no NICS check required in that situation. And I know we are not the only state that does that. How would the Fed's or the my State have any registration of those guns ?? It's illegal for the Feds to keep any gun registration nor anything close to it.

I'm truly amazed at the lack of knowledge about this being shown by gun owners on a gun forum, as they apply to the majority of the states. For those that live in states that require registration of your guns with the state, or a permit to own one, try electing a legislature that will change the laws and get rid of it.

Last edited by Eagleks; December 26, 2011 at 02:59 AM.
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Old December 26, 2011, 09:31 AM   #45
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i live in mass and you have to register firearms...
Well, sort of, but not exactly. Before I got smart and moved over the border to the north, I spent most of my adult life in the People's Republic. In Mass, you have to file an FA-10 form with the state when you purchase a firearm, either from a dealer or a private seller - typically it's the seller who submits the form - documenting information on both parties as well as on the firearm. In typical Massachusetts fashion, the form is filed with the Criminal History Systems Board - gotta love that. Although the state claims otherwise (and of course they'd never lie), that amounts to de facto registration for new purchases.

There's no requirement, however, to register guns that were purchased prior to the start of the FA-10 submittal requirement, so it's perfectly legal to own unregistered guns, and any old fart gun owners (like me) usually have a number of firearms that aren't "registered" with the state.
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Old December 26, 2011, 09:42 AM   #46
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Just to clarify my earlier post:

I did not mean to imply that there was 'federal registration' per say, in which the fed gov't maintained records such as type of gun, ser. #'s etc. purchased at an FFL holder.

Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

I was implying(and maintain) that there is federal registration(or call it what you will) 'by proxy' via the LGS/DEALER/FFL on guns purchased at theses places. As these entities are required by the Feds. to keep all this information available in the event they(the fed. gov't) see's the need to access it.

Also, the few states that do require registration of private sales are requiring it at the State,City, Co. level, not the Fed level.

Thank You JohnKSa for the legal explanations.
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Old December 26, 2011, 12:46 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Mike38
Long story short, while applying for a C&R License, I had a few conversations with an agent from the FBI. This agent was able to read me a list of all firearms I have bought from a FFL dealer, back at least 20 years.
BuIIshlt.

The NICS examiner does not ask for the make, model, caliber, or serial number of the firearm. It is absolutely not possible for the make, model, caliber or s/n to be linked with the purchaser's name through this process.
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Old December 26, 2011, 01:46 PM   #48
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It's the states that border on Mexico. TX, CA, AZ, NM. The ostensible reason for the extra reporting requirement was to make it harder for people to illegally purchase guns to take across into Mexico.
Is this actually the case or still subject to a legal challenge?
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Old December 26, 2011, 02:33 PM   #49
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There is/was a lawsuit challenging the multiple reporting requirement imposed by DHS. I'm sorry, but I don't know the outcome.

For what it's worth, regardless of the outcome of the suit, there is still a reporting requirement when multiple handguns are purchased from the same dealer in a short timeframe. That requirement has been in place for many years and applies across the board--not just in the 4 states mention. I don't believe it would be affected by the outcome of the suit.
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Old December 26, 2011, 10:15 PM   #50
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For what it's worth, regardless of the outcome of the suit, there is still a reporting requirement when multiple handguns are purchased from the same dealer in a short timeframe. That requirement has been in place for many years and applies across the board--not just in the 4 states mention. I don't believe it would be affected by the outcome of the suit.
The ATF was trying to force gun dealers to do this on long guns, AR's, etc. and it went to Fedl Court, and recently the Court it was ruled that it was illegal for the ATF or anyone else to do this.

There is no mutiple gun reporting requirement, unless a specific State is trying to do it.
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