The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 24, 2011, 07:13 PM   #1
Marquezj16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2011
Posts: 2,088
Trade across state lines ???

Is a person to person trade of weapons across state lines legal?

I'm in MS and he's in AL. I want to trade a shotgun for his pistol. What must take place to make this a legal transaction?

Thanks in advance.
Marquezj16 is offline  
Old December 24, 2011, 08:16 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Here are the relevent ATF regulations, "GCA" is "Gun Control Act":

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State? [Back]
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old December 24, 2011, 08:51 PM   #3
Marquezj16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2011
Posts: 2,088
So legal way would be, he ships to an FFL in my state and I ship to an FFL in his state.

Man, that adds some cost to the transaction.

Thanks for the info.
Marquezj16 is offline  
Old December 24, 2011, 09:09 PM   #4
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
If I understand it correctly, he would have to ship the handgun to your FFL, because in an interstate handgun sale, the FFL must be in the recipient state.

Your FFL could ship the shotgun to the buyer, because in an interstate long gun sale, the requirement is simply for an FFL; the FFL could be in either state.

What I have done in the case of trades is basically use FFLs at both ends. Let the FFLs confirm each others licenses, and when each has the local gun, they ship it. Sort of like gun escrow.

It worked pretty well for me, because the FFL can use USPS, and his transfer rate was about what it would have cost me to ship the gun, on my own, via UPS or FedEx.

Note that some FFLs will only accept interstate transfers from other FFLs. This isn't a legal requirement, but some of them are afraid of Bloomberg stings, etc.
MLeake is offline  
Old December 24, 2011, 09:23 PM   #5
Marquezj16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2011
Posts: 2,088
That makes sense. Thanks MLeake. I'll have to try that method if I ever end up selling or trading out of state. For now, I'm gonna limit to in state resident sales/trades.

And thanks to peetzakilla for the ATF FAQs.
Marquezj16 is offline  
Old December 24, 2011, 09:35 PM   #6
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
That's why we're here!
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old December 25, 2011, 05:08 PM   #7
wally626
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2009
Posts: 637
Quote:
Your FFL could ship the shotgun to the buyer, because in an interstate long gun sale, the requirement is simply for an FFL; the FFL could be in either state.
No the FFL transfer has to be in person. The buyer can have the gun shipped to a local FFL or go to an FFL in another state, the out of state FFL cannot ship directly to the buyer.

Quote:
(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State...
wally626 is offline  
Old December 25, 2011, 05:31 PM   #8
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
wally626, without meaning to be obtuse or difficult, does the Civilian Marksmanship Program get an exemption? Because my M1 Garand was shipped directly to my house in Georgia (at the time) from Anniston, Alabama.

I suppose it's possible that they do have an exemption, but now I'm curious.
MLeake is offline  
Old December 25, 2011, 05:39 PM   #9
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,215
Why not meet in person at a gun dealer or pawn shop in the pistol-owner's state near the state line? That FFL should be able to handle both transfers.
__________________
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is offline  
Old December 25, 2011, 05:59 PM   #10
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Make that the pistol recipient's state, and that is a simple and elegant solution.
MLeake is offline  
Old December 25, 2011, 07:07 PM   #11
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,215
__________________
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is offline  
Old December 25, 2011, 10:53 PM   #12
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,697
Quote:
wally626, without meaning to be obtuse or difficult, does the Civilian Marksmanship Program get an exemption? Because my M1 Garand was shipped directly to my house in Georgia (at the time) from Anniston, Alabama.

I suppose it's possible that they do have an exemption, but now I'm curious.
Yes, they do.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old December 26, 2011, 11:30 PM   #13
Marquezj16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2011
Posts: 2,088
Follow up to trade

Quote:
Make that the pistol recipient's state, and that is a simple and elegant solution.
Okay, if we meet at my local FFL in MS, he can hand over the pistol to the FFL and they can do the necessary documents and I can hand over the rifle to my FFL and they he can receive the rifle from the FFL?

Thanks again.
Marquezj16 is offline  
Old December 27, 2011, 11:07 AM   #14
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,666
Quote:
...if we meet at my local FFL in MS, he can hand over the pistol to the FFL and they can do the necessary documents and I can hand over the rifle to my FFL and... he can receive the rifle from the FFL?
This is perfectly legal under federal law.

The only potential issue is that AL may prohibit its residents from purchasing long guns from FFL's in neighboring states. Such prohibitions are uncommon nowadays*, but I'm not familiar with AL law, so I can't comment on this. However, if the MS FFL is located anywhere near the AL state line, they can probably answer this question.

*Footnote: If you attempt to read AL state law yourself, be forewarned that many states have legal provisions saying that adjacent-state FFL long gun purchases are "not prohibited" or "not disallowed"- i.e. they are allowed- but these statutes are often worded with confusing double negatives, so make sure you read all the "nots"! These laws dealt with a long-obsolete federal law that disallowed adjacent-state sales by default unless a state specifically "un-prohibited" them, so to speak. These statutes have been legal dead weight since the federal law was repealed, but many state legislatures have never bothered to remove them from the books.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is online now  
Old December 28, 2011, 07:00 PM   #15
wally626
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2009
Posts: 637
Quote:
wally626, without meaning to be obtuse or difficult, does the Civilian Marksmanship Program get an exemption? Because my M1 Garand was shipped directly to my house in Georgia (at the time) from Anniston, Alabama.

I suppose it's possible that they do have an exemption, but now I'm curious.
There are some exemptions to the "has to go through a FFL" for interstate transferrs, like guns out for repair and being returned. Aguila Blanca thinks the CMP gets an exemption and he is probably correct, I do not know enough to say myself. However for typical sales and trades interstate means a FFL in person transferr.
wally626 is offline  
Old December 28, 2011, 09:42 PM   #16
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,697
From the CMP web site's FAQ:

Quote:
If you receive a "Delay" from the FBI, why do you not process the order after three days, as authorized by law?

First- we are not your regular gun dealer. The law that established the CMP exempted us from FFL requirements. We are not required to keep a 'book' or to ship only to another FFL. The law also specifies that we must have a completed 'successful' background check conducted for each sale. So - we cannot ship a rifle until we get a 'proceed' from the FBI. The three days after a 'delay' does not apply to us as it does to FFL licensed dealers. We can also ship direct to your home, where dealers cannot.

Second - the NICS check submission to the FBI provides no information about the firearm - no model, no serial number, nothing. It only provides the information about the individual.

Third - we input the information directly into the FBI ENICS system via computer (not by telephone). As soon as we do, the name shows up on the screen in a list with other names that we have input and not yet received a response. The initial status reads 'new'. Every hour or so we check the list and some status will have changed to either 'proceed', 'deny' or 'delay'. If we get the 'proceed', we print the information and attach it to the order and put the order in the tray (for the date order was received) for processing. If response was a 'deny', we cancel the order and prepare a letter and send it to the customer with information for the customer to appeal the ruling directly to the FBI.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old December 28, 2011, 11:10 PM   #17
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Thanks, AB, learned something new.
MLeake is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10260 seconds with 9 queries